Politics, Religion, and Morality

[Ranior]

I enjoy discussing political matters, and recently have been reading up on some issues as well. However, rarely do I get into good discussions with others such matters. With a presidential election nearly here, and the first one I can vote in, I'm interested in hearing some other people's opinions and coming to an even better understanding of some of the feelings and thoughts of others. I don't get to discuss these matters with generally intelligent people too often, and it seems in today's political landscape real issues don't get discussed, at least not rationally or reasonably all too often.

I will start out by saying I am socially liberal, and still figuring a lot of things out in the fiscal world, but probably am a left leaning moderate there. I still like to hear a lot of opinions, but this is where I am coming from.

But I guess I should make the point of this thread clear: I want to have a spot to discuss some of the political issues of this campaign, as well as the final 3 weeks up the election.

I want to be clear too on what I think should be some of the guidlines for such a discussion: All should be able to have their opinion heard and stated, and we should treat each other with respect and kindness. The goal of our discussions should be to understand each other better, not to prove ourselves correct or change each other's minds. At least not immediately. With these sorts of issues, it is surely going to take some time and thought to lead to a change of opinion, and therefore our goal should not be to attack or demean, but to accept and try to understand each other better. I guess my main point here is that in my experiences, the reason some people have such a hatred for discussing politics is because too many feel that whenever you are talking politics you must debate, and try to force or prove your opinion correct. This mindset leads to yelling, anger, and nothing successful. So instead, let us try and make sure this thread is respectful of all opinions, and we are here to understand each other's points better.





Finally, I just want to be clear, anything really is up for fair game in my opinion, if it pertains to the upcoming elections of 2012. I'm just feeling like there should be a good and appropriate spot to do so on this forum. Bring up a topic if you have some feelings or thoughts, or want to get some clarification, and let's help each other come to a better understanding and be more informed.






To start off the discussion, I shall again mention my bias--I am liberal, and currently feel like Obama is who I shall be voting for. Additionally I associate myself with a Democrat primarily, although I have voted for some 3rd party candidates in some elections, particularly some Green party candidates.

But to start off, I was watching the Vice Presidential debate, and noticed how Paul Ryan several times mentioned that the Republicans had at times tried to work together with Democrats on bipartisianship, but were spurned or turned away. From my memory of the past 4 years, this is simply not true. So my question though is two-fold: Can anyone point out some instances of what Paul Ryan is speaking of? I could easily be forgetting some instances, and just remembering some of the statements that upset me (such as some high ranking Republicans making it clear that their goal was to make sure Obama could not do anything and make sure he got voted out--doesn't sound like working together to me.) Next off, do others think Paul Ryan is lying then, and if so, is he doing it purposefully and knowingly?


~Ranior, who will be very interested to see where this may go, or if it even takes off

 

[MegaSilver]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I'm Independent. I vote for who I think is the best candidate. Yes, I'll admit I usually will vote Republican. But, I think Obama's still the best vote. If I could have voted for him last time, I would have. I'll be voting for him this time.

MegaSilver, who knows Ranior asked more than just that, but doesn't have the time to answer them all at the moment.

 

[flameslayer93]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

This is also the first year I'll be able to vote, so yay(?) for that. That being said, I'm not sure who, if either I'm going to be voting for. I don't really like either of the guys.

I'm not good at discussing past a gut feeling though.

*Subscribes to thread*

 

[Ranior]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I'm Independent. I vote for who I think is the best candidate. Yes, I'll admit I usually will vote Republican. But, I think Obama's still the best vote. If I could have voted for him last time, I would have. I'll be voting for him this time.

MegaSilver, who knows Ranior asked more than just that, but doesn't have the time to answer them all at the moment.

No worries good sir...if it wasn't clear, my main purpose of opening this thread was to offer a good place to discuss the full gambit of the upcoming elections facing our nation.

The only other thread I found was the "Scapers as a voting block" thing which was a simple poll with no replies...

So your response is perfectly fine. I want to make it very clear that anyone who wants to post some thoughts on their political opinions is more than welcome to do so. Just remember to be respectful, polite, and accepting. (Which you of course MegaSilver are perfectly fine doing thus far).

I guess my real main point is I just want to promote some discussion, wherever it goes. I'm currently interested/fascinated by a great many questions in the political realm, and intend to get through a good bit of them hopefully.

 

[MegaSilver]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

My post was more of a subscription post than anything. I figured my response was fine, as you said, just so I could state something simple. I meant that I would kind of like to answer some of your questions, but I don't have the time to at the moment.

 

[Nukatha]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

Personally, I continue to be a fan of free market, and less nationwide regulation.

I think communities can, in general, run school systems better than states and nations.

Also, i prefer aid to those needing it to be by donations from those who are well off, as opposed to mandated donations in the form of taxes.

That being said, I am a huge proponent of the Space Program and intend to work in the manned spaceflight program, and therefore believe NASA (as the best space exploration program humans have made) ought to get a few percentage points of the federal budget.
Space exploration, in the long run, is the single most important endeavor that humans can work on. Eventually, this planet will be burned to death by the sun as it expands, and by that time, we had better be someplace else.
Furthermore, technological advancements from the space program are applicable in daily life (just think of all the things we can do with the hundreds of satellites orbiting earth now), and the research, development, and manufacturing of large launch vehicles gives thousands of people careers.

 

[Ranior]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

Huh...this thread hasn't got much attention yet. Ah well. Next off, unless Nukatha is a bit older than I think he is, we're all first time presidential election voters in here.

Ah well. I'm looking forward to the debate tonight, it will be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Also, i prefer aid to those needing it to be by donations from those who are well off, as opposed to mandated donations in the form of taxes.

First off, what aid are you talking about? I'm assuming you're talking about such things as food stamps and unemployment benefits? I'd like to know more of course, but I just have to respond a bit to this.

Food Stamps is hardly a program that cost our government a significant portion of anything. And let me ask this question to you in another form: Do you want people to be able to eat food, or go hungry? Quite simply in our advanced society, I believe it only makes sense to make sure that the very base necessities for living are covered for by those that need them. Additionally, I think it is disingenuous to state that those who are well off or rich are the only ones paying for this....everyone's taxes go to these things. The rich have the ability to help out the poor, and the government can ensure this happens, in an efficient enough manner. I think it would be a folly to expect that those who have the means would ensure that those who need it would get the basic neccessities that they need.

Of course if I am misinterpreting you, please speak up. You left a pretty vague statement out there, but I'd like to understand it more....particularly with the next statement:

That being said, I am a huge proponent of the Space Program and intend to work in the manned spaceflight program, and therefore believe NASA (as the best space exploration program humans have made) ought to get a few percentage points of the federal budget.
Space exploration, in the long run, is the single most important endeavor that humans can work on. Eventually, this planet will be burned to death by the sun as it expands, and by that time, we had better be someplace else.
Furthermore, technological advancements from the space program are applicable in daily life (just think of all the things we can do with the hundreds of satellites orbiting earth now), and the research, development, and manufacturing of large launch vehicles gives thousands of people careers.

First off, I like the idea of spending some more on NASA, and research, and science and math, etc. It seems like the technological advances, and the knowledge gained by space missions are a worthwhile endeavor.

Next off, the sun is not going to expand and destroy our Earth for another few billion years. Quite likely it will take longer for that to happen than the history of life on Earth thus far. Therefore I find the idea that we should be worrying about finding a way to move on to another planet to just flat out be a folly, particularly with the fact that the proliferation of nuclear weapons may lead to us wiping ourselves out first, our the fact that global warming and the spewing of chemicals into our atmosphere may have impacts in the next few centuries that would make this planet inhospitable to us. It would seem to me that spending money on ensuring our survival should start with green energies and other such environmental protections.


Finally though...you support everyone having to pay for NASA, but think that "those who need aid" should get their support from individuals who desire to donate to the needy? Shouldn't everyone be allowed to choose to donate to fund NASA, rather than force it on everyone? Heck, if you support the idea of less government intervention and the free market, why doesn't NASA the business take off? If it can make so many technological advances to benefit everyone, how can it not be a viable business on its own, or why can't some space company provide to us what NASA does, without the government and people paying for it?

 

[Strange_Love]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I very much enjoy listening to people discuss politics and putting in my two cents sometimes. My mom always worked in a place that was heavily into politics. (mostly city hall jobs) Since I can remember she would come home talking politics. That being said both my parents are Republicans. So as a product of them I am also.

This being said I will vote for Romney. Not because he is a Republican and not because I like everything he stands for either. I do not like Obama and what he does stand for. I think he has done little for this country. I did not say nothing let me be clear about that I just feel as if he has done very little.

 

[Ranior]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I very much enjoy listening to people discuss politics and putting in my two cents sometimes. My mom always worked in a place that was heavily into politics. (mostly city hall jobs) Since I can remember she would come home talking politics. That being said both my parents are Republicans. So as a product of them I am also.

This being said I will vote for Romney. Not because he is a Republican and not because I like everything he stands for either. I do not like Obama and what he does stand for. I think he has done little for this country. I did not say nothing let me be clear about that I just feel as if he has done very little.

Fair enough all around. I'm interested in promoting a discussion here that actually gets into things, instead of just broad statements (something I have been struggling with), but would you care to expand at all? What do you think are some of Obama's specific failures that you believe Romeny will better adress? Really just anything to expand would be cool.

Then again, perhaps I am mistaken, and this forum isn't going to be one that has the people who will get interested in this thread and let it take off. But I'll try for a while longer.

 

[Strange_Love]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

One of the things I dislike that he did most was be misleading. He said our troops would be home from Iraq. And he got them home. But then turned around and off they all go to Afghanistan. I have friends that have been hurt in both wars. I realize that keeping them home is not always a option but don't get everyone excited that they will be brought home just to turn around and send them away again. Or if you are going to then tell us so.

As the debate just mentioned (no im not watching its on in another room) gas prices. $1.79 was the average when he was elected now the average is over $3.69 a gallon.

Unemployment is up. Jobs are hard to come by. Its the holiday season and for another year families are not going to be sure if they can give their kids what they want. But if you ask some the blame it all on Bush. Well that is fine and dandy but what did your boy do to fix it in his 4 years?

Commonly things get better in America or the economy improves when a Democrat is elected. The unemployment rates got to their highest while he was in office.


And as a nerd I hate that he closed down NASA.

 

[Dad_Scaper]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

edit: not getting involved in this. some of you do not know what you think you know.

 

[Garenex]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I also am listening to the debate from another (while trying to choose an army for the TTO this weekend). I shall start by stating that I am politically Republican, and this shall be the second presidential election I'll be voting in. I voted for McCain in the last election, and often wonder what would have happened...(but then Aslan's voice pops in my head, telling me "No one is ever told what would have happened.")

My initial opinion about the debate, is that I'm frustrated with both of them. They continually interrupt each other and seem to waste a lot of time not saying anything.

They just brought up gun control, and this is something I beat to death in high school. My opinion is that people who want to get the assault weapons (which are already illegal), are going to get them regardless of whether they are illegal or not. The only people whom gun control laws are going to effect are those whom will follow the laws anyway, who aren't going to go on a shooting spree. Those people need the weapons to defend themselves from those who aren't going to follow the laws.

What I feel we need is more education and training. Young people just aren't widely trained in guns as many just do not have the opportunity. If more people learned how to handle and respect the weaponry from an early age, I feel there would be less violence.

Furthermore, technological advancements from the space program are applicable in daily life (just think of all the things we can do with the hundreds of satellites orbiting earth now), and the research, development, and manufacturing of large launch vehicles gives thousands of people careers.

I find NASA to be a fascinating area of discussion, though one I have not touched a lot. I am all for for space exploration, but I have often wondering if it is really best for it to a government agency, or if it would be better to privatize it. My initial feeling is that it should be a private industry, as there's countless other things for the government to spend money on, then again, Nukatha's comment above has made me rethink my position. I also wonder how far away we are from lazer/rocket weaponry from space, and if we would really want that kind of fire power in the private sector.

 

[MegaSilver]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

Thank you, D_S.

While I understand your frustation Strange_Love, oftentimes the President is not at fault of the current situation. It's mostly the fault of the former administration (especially right after his election) or Congress who ignores the President's requests. Even President Bush got blamed for things that he didn't do. (I cannot think of them right of the top of my head, though.)

 

[Strange_Love]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I also am listening to the debate from another (while trying to choose an army for the TTO this weekend). I shall start by stating that I am politically Republican, and this shall be the second presidential election I'll be voting in. I voted for McCain in the last election, and often wonder what would have happened...(but then Aslan's voice pops in my head, telling me "No one is ever told what would have happened.")

My initial opinion about the debate, is that I'm frustrated with both of them. They continually interrupt each other and seem to waste a lot of time not saying anything.

They just brought up gun control, and this is something I beat to death in high school. My opinion is that people who want to get the assault weapons (which are already illegal), are going to get them regardless of whether they are illegal or not. The only people whom gun control laws are going to effect are those whom will follow the laws anyway, who aren't going to go on a shooting spree. Those people need the weapons to defend themselves from those who aren't going to follow the laws.

What I feel we need is more education and training. Young people just aren't widely trained in guns as many just do not have the opportunity. If more people learned how to handle and respect the weaponry from an early age, I feel there would be less violence.

I agree they are not really saying much. They are just kind of switching places and saying "that's not what I said" or "what I meant was"

This is the second election I get to vote in. And I would rather not go vote but it is not an option with my other half.

 

[Ranior]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

As the debate just mentioned (no im not watching its on in another room) gas prices. $1.79 was the average when he was elected now the average is over $3.69 a gallon.

Unemployment is up. Jobs are hard to come by. Its the holiday season and for another year families are not going to be sure if they can give their kids what they want. But if you ask some the blame it all on Bush. Well that is fine and dandy but what did your boy do to fix it in his 4 years?

Commonly things get better in America or the economy improves when a Democrat is elected. The unemployment rates got to their highest while he was in office.


And as a nerd I hate that he closed down NASA.

That gas price thing is hopelessly flawed. That 1.79 is the average(?) during the Bush years. The average right now is obviously right now. I'm not sure how you best compare things across eras, but finally I'm not convinced the president or our nation has much choice in the gas price all that much. The prices have slowly gone up throughout history, not much you are going to do to change it I don't think. At the very least though those numbers are just flat out misleading to have a real discussion on gas policies.

Unemployment is DOWN since Obama took office. It spiked during his first year, but it has slowly gone down, to the current level of being slightly lower than what he took over. It may not be as much as one would like, but it has not gone up. Jobs have been consistently added for the past 30 months now. While recovery may not be quick, speedy, or fast, the economy is improving, not getting worse.

As to what he did to fix it, there's a variety of programs and things he did, most noticeably a massive stimulus, that offered a lot of tax cuts, as well as programs to increase spending and some infrastructure improvements. He's done a variety of bills and things to offer up relief in taxes to small business and the middle class and the poor. Overall I think the policies he has pursued have aided us in getting out of the recession, and the numbers back up the economy is getting better. I think you can make a serious argument if you wish that the economy isn't getting as good as it could be as quickly, but I think it's a difficult position to support to state that Obama has made things worse.

Finally, this talk about NASA is just absurd. Last time I checked, NASA hasn't been shut down. It took a cut of about 15% or so. (Hard to find these numbers, as not all that many big news sources seem to care too much). The budget submitted to the president by the Republican controlled congress actually had a higher budget cut than what the president had suggested in his budget plan.

 

[jschild]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

That 1.79 is a bull cherrypicked number. Gas prices crashed hard in September 2008 because of the global recession. In fact, prices have not still hit heights hit during the Bush administration (not that Bush was cause of them either).

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

Make sure to select 8 years. President's have virtually no effect on gas prices and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

EDIT 1:

One of the things I dislike that he did most was be misleading. He said our troops would be home from Iraq. And he got them home. But then turned around and off they all go to Afghanistan

This is EXACTLY what Obama said he would. He said before and during campaigning his exact plan was to reduce troops and have combat troops out within a year and increase troops in Afghanistan. He never said he would draw down troops there immediately and said the exact opposite, which he did.

EDIT 2: Really, shut down NASA? Please, in discussions like this, at least stick to the facts. It's hard to have any kind of an honest debate if you make false claims.

EDIT 3: Some good breakdowns of the facts of the debate...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/oct/16/fact-checking-town-hall-debate/

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/debates/presidential/2012-10-16
(Make sure to select fact check instead of all)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...6d3a7b4-17a3-11e2-a55c-39408fbe6a4b_blog.html

 

[Dignan]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

That 1.79 is a bull cherrypicked number. Gas prices crashed hard in September 2008 because of the global recession. In fact, prices have not still hit heights hit during the Bush administration (not that Bush was cause of them either).

http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx

Yeah, people quoting that gas price bullsh!te number always drives me up the wall. It just reeks of "uninformed citizen". I remember when I first heard that number. I thought, "wow... that's crazy" and I did a quick google search. In less than a minute I found a nice graph of gas prices and saw what a crock that number is. The populous needs to actively stay informed and fact check what they hear (it's incredibly easy in today's age). It might very well be the truth (as is the case here), but the context is likely much more important.

That's why these debates and campaigns always drive me insane. Both sides are cooking up numbers and trying to spin the same facts to make their side look better than the other. It's really wears me out...

 

[Swamper]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I really don't like either of them. None of the guys running for president right now is the leader the country needs right now.

That being said, if I could vote, I'd vote for Romney as the lesser of the two evils. Obama had his shot for four years, and I don't like the job he's done. Let's try something else and see if that works.

 

[William099]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I'm definately a swing vote in this whole thing... haven't had to time to watch either of the debates and am not certain where either of the candidates stand on issues, nor what the issues really are... I'll need to watch the debates and read some online stuff... its kinda refreshing coming from a blank slate without any major preconcieved ideas...

 

[Nukatha]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

NASA scientists really know how to play the system.
Despite the budget cuts and the 'cancellation' of project Constellation, most (if not all) components of that program are actually still being developed under different names.
Maybe I'm just a selfish person who really wants to retire on a spacecraft traveling toward another star system... At the very least, I plan on working toward it.

 

[Dysole]

Indecision 2012

I really don't like either of them. None of the guys running for president right now is the leader the country needs right now.

That being said, if I could vote, I'd vote for Romney as the lesser of the two evils. Obama had his shot for four years, and I don't like the job he's done. Let's try something else and see if that works.

I'm undecided and probably won't until the actual official date as per my usual idiom but I do have to say that I'm kind of in agreement with the first half of this statement.

As for the last sentence I sort of feel that's what happens every four or eight years in our political system.

~Dysole, probably more politically cynical than he'd like to be

 

[Nukatha]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

Personally, I'm in favor of a dictatorship/oligarchy with me at the top. Unfortunately that would require a probably violent revolution, something I don't think would be worth it.

 

[flameslayer93]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

It's not really big or revolutionary or anything like that, but something a coworker said (in relation to cutting taxes on Rich-Folk) might deserve a mention:

"I don't know about you, but I've never gotten a job from a poor person."

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

I'll preface this post by saying that I'm a political junkie. I'm also a political science major and this will be my first national election. I voted in my city council election last year but that's been it.

I'm a moderate conservative. I'm a social conservative, foreign policy liberal, and a deficit hawk.

I'll be voting for Romney/Ryan this year. Primarily because of the deficit. I really like Ryan's medicare voucher program, even though I wish they would have kept the current Medicare cuts in the affordable care act instead of removing them to make their case more palatable in an election.

Democrats haven't shown a willingness to seriously tackle reforming Medicare. While I approve of the Affordable Care Act and its reduction of medical costs, whenever the topic of seriously reforming Medicare (for example, Ryan's voucher plan) comes up, Democrats use it to scare seniors into voting for them. (I understand that the Republicans do this too. For example, their claims about Obama raiding Medicare to pay for the ACA.)

The Democrats' platitudes about asking the rich to pay a little more simply can't fix the deficit. The fact of the matter is that you can't tax the rich enough to pay for the projected increases in outlays caused by Medicare and other such programs over the long-term. Obama promised to cut the deficit in half. Instead, he's run 1 trillion dollar deficits each year. I think the President and Congress missed a good opportunity with Simpson-Bowles which both the President and Republicans rejected.

I don't like Romney's tax plan unless he would be willing to close the mortgage tax break to keep it revenue neutral. I also don't like the increased military spending that he's called for. However, I think overall, even if he were able to pass these things, I think Obama would do a worse job addressing the deficit.

The important thing to remember is that neither of these guys is going to be politically able to do much of this stuff. It's looking like the Republicans will maintain control of the House and the Democrats will keep control of the Senate. So whichever candidate wins is going to face a lot of obstruction from the other side especially on the issue of the deficit and the fiscal cliff. I've been glad to see the automatic sequestration cuts and hope they go into effect. I also hope that the Bush Tax cuts expire. I think its necessary for our long-term fiscal health and with divided government it's probably a very likely possibility.

 

[jschild]

Re: Presidential Election and Politics 2012

The problem about Romney's tax plan is that there is no way he can do what he claims he will do. He still has yet to name one single deduction that he would eliminate and coupled with his increase in military spending, there is no way he is going to bring down the deficit. Indeed the most likely scenario (looking at history here) is he will increase military spending and get most of his tax cuts, but not cut any spending resulting in a worse situation than we are now in. Spending up and more revenue down. How this is supposed to fix the deficit (other than magical thinking) is beyond me. Nothing Romney has actually proposed actually approaches eliminating the deficit.

That's my problem, I'm supposed to take his hopes (since the facts he's given actually work against him and he won't say what he would actually cut) and just agree that magically it'll work? If his plan was real and actually did what he says it would do, even if I disagreed with the implementation, I could at least respect that. But he's given us nothing more than extremely vague promises and nothing to back it up.

Also to your last paragraph, those automatic cuts you're happy to see? Romney says he will eliminate those cuts. Bush tax cuts expire? He's for keeping all of them permanently in addition to his new cuts that are magically revenue neutral, he just can't tell you yet how that is supposed to work. Call me crazy but saying Romney is better about the deficit is a wild claim with no proof to back it up at all.

TLR - Revenue is already at all time lows - Romney will increase spending (cuts he has named, which are few, are outweighed by his increases in military spending) and reduce revenue more (he has provided zero proof that his tax cut will be revenue neutral, not named one deduction to be eliminated) and thus hasn't show how he actually could reduce the deficit or eliminate it.