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[Pod 1] DIENEKES (Gideon Jura, Combat Mage) - Testing

Thought just occurred to me: swapping Dieneks' Life and Defense. So far we've done a great job giving our Heroes 6 Life. This would shake that up a little, make him more Ne-Gok-Sa-esque, and fit with his tank role (current setup does, too, but 6D/4L is mathematically slightly better than 4D/6L).
 
For what it's worth, I was actually thinking that we might want to go for 5 defense and drop the life a tad here as well. It provides more variety within our set and also distinguishes Dienekes more from Tandros Kreel.

That said, 6+ defense with 4 life has a lot of potential for frustration, especially when combined with defense boosters like Raelin or our Toughness +1 Glyph. I would personally start at 4L/5D just because of Combat Challenge, but that's just my preference.
 
I'm fine with lowering Life and boosting Defense. I do share Astro's concern about pushing Defense too much thanks to the Raelin synergy. 4L/5D sounds good to me.
 
:bump:

It's been a while, but it looks like we never finished the discussion about a potential stat change here.

Thought just occurred to me: swapping Dieneks' Life and Defense. So far we've done a great job giving our Heroes 6 Life. This would shake that up a little, make him more Ne-Gok-Sa-esque, and fit with his tank role (current setup does, too, but 6D/4L is mathematically slightly better than 4D/6L).

For what it's worth, I was actually thinking that we might want to go for 5 defense and drop the life a tad here as well. It provides more variety within our set and also distinguishes Dienekes more from Tandros Kreel.

That said, 6+ defense with 4 life has a lot of potential for frustration, especially when combined with defense boosters like Raelin or our Toughness +1 Glyph. I would personally start at 4L/5D just because of Combat Challenge, but that's just my preference.

I'm fine with lowering Life and boosting Defense. I do share Astro's concern about pushing Defense too much thanks to the Raelin synergy. 4L/5D sounds good to me.

I still think that dropping the life to 4 and increasing the defense to 5 is worth consideration here for giving us some more stat variety in the set, and it suits Dienekes' defender role well.

Pinging the other members of this Pod to see if they have any preferences for this stat change proposal. I think that it's within the realm of reasonability to change through playtesting alone, but I'd prefer to get more thoughts on it first to see if anyone is opposed or if we should proceed with that change immediately.
@Fakeraistlin @lefton4ya @Jaur0n @The Long eared bat
 
I like the 6L/4D we have now. If you look at a probability table, I’d compare average damage of 3v4 and 3v5 and life. On average, 9 attacks of three kill him at 4L/5D while it takes 10.3 at 6L/4D. That’s the difference between taking him out in a round or not.

Major Q10 has 4L/5D and I wouldn’t consider him a tank, which is think is where this character is supposed to be.
 
I like the 6L/4D we have now. If you look at a probability table, I’d compare average damage of 3v4 and 3v5 and life. On average, 9 attacks of three kill him at 4L/5D while it takes 10.3 at 6L/4D. That’s the difference between taking him out in a round or not.

Major Q10 has 4L/5D and I wouldn’t consider him a tank, which is think is where this character is supposed to be.

Agreed. If this guy is going to be a defender, he does need the stats of one. And it can't be much more frustating than Tandros, I'd imagine.
 
As long as he remains worth putting order markers on, I don't really care if we want a more expensive tougher guy or a cheaper weaker guy. Either is fine.

I would like to revisit Necro's discussion from a couple pages ago. Limiting Tether to opponent's figures would help focus the design.
 
Limiting the Tether to opponent's figures seems like a good change to me. We have several figures with some kind of bonus movement going on already, and I don't think that the extra utility of moving your own figures is super intuitive (plus, as Scytale said, it kind of dilutes Dienekes' focus as a defender).
 
Thanks @S1R_ART0R1US for stats. I guess we either have 6L, 4D, or maybe we can make him 5L, 5D (if that is not too generic).

As for Tethering your own figures, since you must do after the figure finishes movement and is variable, I think there are very few situations where you would end your move and be OK ending there but prefer next to Dienekes. So I am Ok with keeping it only opponent's figures.
 
Yea, 5L, 5D would be on par with Siege, still less than Ne-Gok-Sa's 6D, and statistically just slightly better than Tandros Kreel's 7L, 4D, which is I think where we want him as the ultimate meat shield. Now that I think about it regardless of 4L or 5L is 90 points too cheap or right or not sure? Why I ask is NGS is undercosted at 90 but Tandros is over-costed at 120, although they are not 1-to1 as have other powers/uses.
 
Yea, 5L, 5D would be on par with Siege, still less than Ne-Gok-Sa's 6D, and statistically just slightly better than Tandros Kreel's 7L, 4D, which is I think where we want him as the ultimate meat shield. Now that I think about it regardless of 4L or 5L is 90 points too cheap or right or not sure? Why I ask is NGS is undercosted at 90 but Tandros is over-costed at 120, although they are not 1-to1 as have other powers/uses.
I think 90 is a good guess for 4L 5D, and too low for 5L 5D.
 
Yea, 5L, 5D would be on par with Siege, still less than Ne-Gok-Sa's 6D, and statistically just slightly better than Tandros Kreel's 7L, 4D, which is I think where we want him as the ultimate meat shield. Now that I think about it regardless of 4L or 5L is 90 points too cheap or right or not sure? Why I ask is NGS is undercosted at 90 but Tandros is over-costed at 120, although they are not 1-to1 as have other powers/uses.
I think 90 is a good guess for 4L 5D, and too low for 5L 5D.

I agree. Maybe 115 for the 5/5?
 
For what it's worth, I think that there's a much greater appeal to 4L/5D at 90 points here. That keeps him distinct from Tandros Kreel as a cheaper but more niche investment, and the lower price has the potential to slot in quite nicely to our limited meta while still seeing some use in other formats. As a slightly heavier standalone investment, he has to be compared to the likes of Kaemon Awa and Asterios, and the higher base durability leaves a bit more room for frustration. :2cents:

Ne-Gok-Sa's value doesn't come solely from his defensive stats (the pressure from Mind Shackle and bonding make developing him much more appealing), so I think that Tether of Logos and Combat Challenge are a fair trade for worse defense and less synergy.
 
80 points seems a little cheap to me; I'd prefer to stick to 90 for now and keep an eye on if Dienekes is underperforming in testing, given that he has the potential to be frustrating for opponents when paired with stuff like Raelin or on chokepoint-heavy maps. That's just my observation as an outsider, though, of course.

Price aside, that's 5/6 YEAs. @Scytale, do you mind updating the OP when you get a chance?
 
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