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[Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace Investigator) - Compat. Testing

Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

This playtest wasn't very informative on Tetsuo himself because I kind of focused him down and my girlfriend didn't want to risk turns on him, but that in and of itself is useful. I think that his underperformance here is the result of these factors, but she didn't want to go all in on his risk.

VOLCARREN PARADISE by the Robber
No glyphs. Played with special healing waters scenario rules from the map instructions, but they never came into play.
Astro: Kinchо̄, Master Lao Xin, Master Win Chiu Woo, Yi Feng, Chen Tang (510 Points)
Dawn: Tetsuo Tyrell, Deathwalker 9000, Deathwalker 8000, Zettian Infantry x2 (510 Points)

Note: Kinchо̄ was a personal custom that can be found in this post. The only differences in this game were that he was 10 points cheaper and had no range limit on his Tanuki Trickery power. He was pretty powerful with the monks as it was, so I nerfed him after this game.

GAME SUMMARY:
  • Kinchо̄ teleported adjacent to Tetsuo at the end of Round 1. He was right next to lava, but Dawn only activated Tetsuo one more time before Kinchо̄ eventually finished his slow assassination. While Kinchо̄ was slowly finishing off Tetsuo, he was blocking attacks and moving about the map, dancing in and out of range, to height, off of lava field, or next to bushes. This position was very strong for him, as Lao Xin could see him clearly from the starting zone. I never felt like it was necessary to trigger Tanuki Trickery again until after Tetsuo was dead, and by then it was too risky to place a lone OM on Kinchо̄.
  • While this was going on, my monks skirmished with Deathwalker 9000 and the Zettian Infantry on the other side of the map. They managed to get lucky and kill 9000 early on.
  • Once Kinchо̄ finally fell to Deathwalker 8000 and the Zettian Infantry, Dawn began focusing on the rest of my army. They were struggling to kill enough Zettians to keep up, but things were still looking positive as I had only lost Chen Tang and Kinchо̄. Then Deathwalker 8000 engaged Master Woo and killed him in one turn with his Rapid Fire Special Attack.
  • After Woo fell, I fell back on Lao Xin and Yi Feng only. Deathwalker 8000 unfortunately Rapid Fired Lao Xin into submission in one turn just like he did to Master Woo. That paralyzed me for a round and let her finish off Yi Feng for the win.

SURVIVING UNITS:
Deathwalker 8000, 1x Zettian Infantry
~150 Points Left

POWER USAGE:
Tetsuo got three OMs (one in R1 where he moved in, one in R2 where he made an unboosted attack up at Kinchо̄, and one in R4 after he had died).
Overclock was never used, though it might have saved him from Kinchо̄.
Mind Jack was rolled for once, and got a 5/19.

THOUGHTS:
So, Tetsuo was kind of wasted in this game. Kinchо̄ straight up ambushed him after he got one OM (I viewed him as the biggest threat to my entirely-unique-hero-army on this lava map). He only got two Order Markers after that as Dawn spent much of the game trying to kill Kinchо̄—in the first one, he dealt 1 wound to Kinchо̄ (Dawn didn’t want to risk Overclocking or moving up onto lava field for level ground) and rolled a 5 for Mind Jack. The final Order Marker was a 3 in the round where Kinchо̄ finished him off.

I think that this is more representative of Kinchо̄’s strengths than any kind of weakness from Tetsuo. He very easily could’ve ruined my army at any moment with this set-up. I prioritized him heavily because of that, and Dawn didn’t want to use Overclock, which severely hampered his offensive potential. She also preferred taking additional turns with the Zettian Infantry and DW8k, which limited her ability to actually wound the Tanuki.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Playtest: https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showpost.php?p=2416284&postcount=49


Thoughts from the game:

Tetsuo: I mean, I had stacked his card with Finn, so it should come as no surprise that he dealt 144 points of damage. However since a lot of those points came in the form of self damaging (and a viking spirit), they aren't as good. Not triggering Mindjack once did hurt me, but that just makes him really swingy. I can't say if upping his price will help him or not. Since I don't see any of the AotV stuff as being mega-destructive powerhouses that will scale his swing down quite a bit.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Map: Bad Moon Rising
https://www.heroscapers.com/ohs/ind...=1JVU9Ic_Bx1HiEmX1MgcDvRHtn_G40QKkePNmr6cYY58

Army 1: Tetsuo, Me Burq Sa, 12th Caucasus x3, Nhah Scirh Cultists x2 (500)
Army 2: Sudema, Crypt Guardian x3 80 Tomb Skeletons x2 100 Drow Chainfighter x4 500

Version Tested
Spoiler Alert!


Which units survived?

Army 2 was victorious with one Crypt Guardian with 2 wounds, 2 Drow Chainfighters, and 2 Tomb Skeletons

During the early game I advanced the cultists and the russians about equally, gaining control of key elevation in the center of the map. Shiftrex countered by advancing tomb skeletons. After Shiftrex advanced Sudema to stare of stone a cultist near the north, I was able to disengage three cultists who surrounded her and proceeded to kill her over the course of the next three turns. Tomb skeletons fell quickly to the combined forces of cultists and russians, however once the crypt guardians developed fully the Russians and cultists struggled to get past their 3 defense+tough. Gas grenades and attacks from height eventually killed two of the crypt guardians, but by that time the chainfighters had started to develop and my cultists were all but gone by then. I developed Tetsuo who was able to help finish off a crypt guardian and wound another, but he died to a chainfighter rolling 4 skulls. Me Burq Sa died shortly thereafter to another chainfighter before he was able to deal any damage.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Tetsuo used overclock twice. Each time allowed him to deal a wound to a crypt guardian and punch through their tough, for a total of 2 wounds on crypt guardians. One of these attacks was very important, and allowed me to get a kill on a guardian who was engaged to a russian, which momentarily turned the tide in my favor. However, during the game we forgot that Mindjack could be used on Uncommon Heroes, so he never rolled for Mindjack even though he would have had a couple opportunities for it.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?
Overall I really liked him. Six life and two defense goes fast, especially when you’re overclocking, but a potential of 5 attack at 5 range is a nice option for many armies. Sadly this test wasn’t as useful as it could have been due to my forgetting that uncommon heroes are affected by abilities targeting unique heroes, but I look forward to more playtests with him in the future.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Map: Fossil

Army 1: Sentinels of Jandar x2, Tetsuo Tyrell, 12th Caucasus Rifles x3, Isamu
Army 2: 120 Crypt Guardian x2 140 Sudema 50 Drow Chainfighter x2 120 Blastatrons x2 90 Warden 816

Which units survived?

Crypt guardian with 1 life left, chainfighter, and Warden with 1 life left.

I started the game by advancing a small squadron of sentinels, and then consistently used the russians every turn for several turns. Russians destroyed blastatrons, but once the crypt guardians started advancing and were able to tie the russians down, the tide of battle slowly turned. Tetsuo killed off Sudema and hurt a couple crypt guardians, but was ultimately finished off by the mummies. At that point, the mummies and chainfighters were able to kill the last remaining sentinels, and Isamu failed his first vanish roll to give shiftrex the game.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

Five Mindjack attempts, 0 successful.

Dealt 2 wound to crypt guardian and 2 wounds to Sudema over the course of three overclocked attacks. Overclock fail on crypt

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

Tetsuo was instrumental in killing off Sudema and punching through some of the guardians’ tough defenses, but other than that he didn’t feel supremely useful, especially considering that in order to accomplish all that he dealt 4 wounds to himself. He’s very fun to play, although I feel like perhaps Overclock is a bit of a trap currently? Hard to say. His base attack of 3 is so underwhelming, but inflicting a self wound feels like a high cost for +2 attack. Admittedly, I also don’t think this matchup was the best set of opponents to showcase Tetsuo. Even if he hadn’t failed all his mindjacks, a free turn with a single Crypt Guardian isn’t super impactful most of the time.

Stats
Spoiler Alert!


Version Tested
Spoiler Alert!
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Going to bring my suggestion back of just letting him have a renamed Enslave.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I keep suggesting +Range and +Attack for Overclock to make it more valuable as a choice, but no one ever seems to like it...
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

We could definitely try it! I don't think it'll help the issue I'm seeing in the PT reports, that Mindjack isn't really a factor.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Going to bring my suggestion back of just letting him have a renamed Enslave.

I'm not convinced that this will make the power more likely to trigger? I think that Mind Jack is actually stronger than Enslave right now, since the main drawback (Tetsuo's glass jaw) is easier to mitigate with a screen thanks to the 5 range. Sticking it to a static 20% chance instead of a scaling 10-35% chance will help in the base case but reduce the differences between the two where Tetsuo can shine.

It's also worth noting that Tetsuo is already kind of a better Mind Flayer. Overclock is a very good power, and the +1 range and worse durability is definitely worth the extra 10 points and losing out on Psionic Blast. If we go to Enslave here, then I think that a price bump would be even more in order. These kinds of figures are naturally going to be bad competitively and underwhelm ~70% of the time when their powers fail to trigger, but we still need to price them accordingly. :shrug:

I keep suggesting +Range and +Attack for Overclock to make it more valuable as a choice, but no one ever seems to like it...

I've found Overclock to be very valuable already. 5 attack at 5 range is no slouch, and it's generally even better when he has height. Of course, I also play Tetsuo very aggressively, Overclocking whenever it's reasonable to do so since it boosts pretty much every aspect of his design right now.

If we wanted to do this, then I could see reducing his base range back to 4 (coupled with Mind Jack's range, which makes him more comparable to the Mind Flayer) with a +1 range to his normal attack with Overclock. Going up to potentially 6 range feels excessive to me.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Mmmmh. You're probably right. I retract my suggestion.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

How are we feeling here? I've got the playtests up to date in the OP and there are a good number of them. Granted, with some changes along the way. Trying to get an estimate on the damage he inflicted on average, I came up with about 112 pts/game. He had a couple duds, and one where Mind Jack was absolutely monstrous. One thing to keep in mind is that even in games with very few if any successes, a single Mind Jack in a game could be a tipping point (or at the very least add to Tetsuo's total). On the flip side, I didn't take his self-wounding into account, though he occasionally managed to do 4+ wounds to himself (each one being ~18 points for the opponent). I think he's looking pretty good, but could probably use a couple more tests with the most recent version, since that's the one we'll need to make decisions on.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Personally, I feel like Tetsuo clearly overwhelms the Mind Flayer Mastermind's niche. He's more frail, especially when taking Overclock into account, but the extra range is invaluable and Mind Jack is just outright better after taking two wounds. I have downvoted SoV units for this sort of thing before--obviously, he could use some more testing to ensure that this is the case (and if I was reviewing him right now, I wouldn't make that call just yet), but I think that it's a critical thing to note.

The fact that he is averaging ~110 points is also quite concerning (albeit without taking self-damage into account, which matters less than collateral friendly damage IMO). This is a high variance figure, and if he can reasonably expect to find his value via straight damage alone, then what about the times that he goes against a Hero army on a lava map?

I would support one of the following changes (ordered by my preference):
  1. Increase the points to 120
  2. Increase Mind Jack's base roll to 20
  3. Reduce range for Mind Jack to 4
  4. Reduce range for Mind Jack and normal attack to 4, add +1R to Overclock
#1 puts a bit more of a buffer between him and the Mind Flayer. I would still support much more testing to ensure that we aren't removing that figure's niche, but at least it feels like a bigger choice between the two. Looking at the stats, I could see an increase to 130 making sense just to put them more on the same level.

#2 makes the Mind Flayer more noticeable as a consistent alternative to Tetsuo, emphasizing their differences despite the similar price.

#3 is a relatively minor change to make Tetsuo a riskier investment with his glass jaw.

#4 adds a bit more complexity (which I'm not a fan of), but it places even more of an emphasis on Overclock and is a more extreme version of #3.

I'm fine with running additional tests for the OP version if that's what the majority prefers, but from the games that I've played and read, I think that it's clear that something will need to change here. :2cents:
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Another thing you could potentially do is if he's stepping on the MF's toes is change it to remove an Order Marker on a D20 roll instead, or potentially interrupting an enemy attack once per round. Something like:

MIND JACK
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and after moving, you may choose a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, you may remove 1 unrevealed Order Marker on that figure's Army Card. This special power may only be used once per round.

Or

MIND JACK
If an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo targets a figure you control for a normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, that figure may not attack this turn. This special power may only be used once per round.

Just throwing out ideas. I know there is a lot of playtests here already and probably not what you guys want to do, but if he's just a better MF it could always be worth having a different power.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I was running a series of games today with my girlfriend, so I went ahead and ran another game with the version of Tetsuo in the OP against my Yokai.

CUSTOM MAP:
Spoiler Alert!

500 Points
Glyphs: Knowledge, Recall, Healing
Dawn: Abe no Seimei, Masha Shingai, Kincho, Nure Onna (unposted revision for 20 points), Kirin
Astro: Tetsuo Tyrell, Marrden Hounds x4, Guilty McCreech

SURVIVING UNITS:
8x Marrden Hounds, Guilty McCreech
~270 Points Left

GAME SUMMARY:
Spoiler Alert!

POWER USAGE:
Tetsuo dealt two wounds to Masha. I didn't Overclock this time because Masha was so near death and the Fiery Retribution would've just increased my chances. 12/19 to Mind Jack Nure Onna (would've ran her away to prevent the Kirin from switching into my battlefield).
Overclocked against the Kirin and dealt 2 wounds. 20/18, basically tied down the Kirin for the rest of the game to push the game almost entirely in my favor.
Overclocked against the Kirin but dealt no wounds. 13/17
Overclocked against the Kirin and dealt 1 wound. 14/16
Overclocked against the Kirin but dealt no wounds. 8/15
He Overclocked against Seimei for 2 wounds. 1/14 to Mind Jack the Kirin.
He got no turns in the next round (he was at 5/6 wounds) and was finished off by Seimei.

Total Damage Dealt: 186 Points of Raw Damage
Dealt 5 wounds to himself for ~92 points of self-damage. Less impactful than friendly damage, though, since it was just reducing the number of attacks that he could've absorbed (which wouldn't have been many here).
Wasted 2-3 turns of Dawn's with one successful Mind Jack, mostly sealing the win by tying down the Kirin

THOUGHTS:
Tetsuo was viable just for his outright damage from Overclocking, and the Hounds were an effective screen with their 5 defense to keep him nice and secure in the process. A single Mind Jack was enough to basically seal the game (without lava) in my favor by tying down the Kirin, Dawn's main attacker, with enough engagements that it never recovered.

I think that Tetsuo is in need of changes as I have outlined earlier.
 
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I think I'd like #4 on your list, unless there's thoughts that'll make them too complex for the level of simplicity we've been wanting in the set.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

The main detractor for #4 is that it's the most complicated change, IMO. Overclock right now is very simple, which is a nice contrast to Mind Jack's complexity.

That said, I think that adding a +1 range boost isn't that much more complicated than what we have now, and I think that reducing the range of Mind Jack to 4 would be a big help in making him more comparable to the Mind Flayer.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I don't think it's quite that bad in terms of complexity, but we can try it.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I would be fine with making that change immediately for further testing. Does anyone else have any thoughts on that change or any of the other ideas?
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

I haven't been to concerned with him overshadowing the Mindflayer. He's Unique, has a normal ranged attack, can't remove OMs, and even though Mind Jack has more range it's only as good as Enslave on average across different wound values. Given the above, as long as his cost is appropriate I don't have an issue.

That said, I'll vote yea on testing that change.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Pinging the other members of Pod 0 to check their thoughts on the proposed changes to Tetsuo. @All Your Pie @flameslayer93 @capsocrates

In essence, we've been talking about how he feels a little too good in comparison to the Mind Flayer Mastermind, despite them sharing a similar niche. There are a variety of suggestions for how to fix this problem in this page, but PK, NB, and I are in support of the following changes to the OP (highlighted in red):

VYDAR :vydar:
NAME Tetsuo Tyrell
Species Human
Unique Hero
Class Neuromancer
Personality Tricky
SIZE HEIGHT Medium 5

LIFE 6
MOVE 5 / BASIC 5
RANGE 5 4 / BASIC 5
ATTACK 3 / BASIC 4
DEFENSE 2 / BASIC 5

110 POINTS

OVERCLOCK
Before attacking with Tetsuo Tyrell, you may place a wound marker on this Army Card to add 2 to his Attack value and 1 to his Range value.

MIND JACK 19
When revealing an Order Marker on Tetsuo Tyrell, after taking his turn, you may choose any opponent's Unique Hero figure within 5 4 clear sight spaces of Tetsuo. Roll the 20-sided die. Add 1 to your roll for each wound marker on this card. If you roll a 19 or higher, take temporary control of the chosen Hero and immediately take a turn with that Hero. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to its previous owner. All Order Markers that were on the figure's Army Card will stay on the Army Card.
 
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Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

That looks good to me, AK. :up:
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Poking in here to see if we can update OP
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

It looks like everyone from Pod 0 who is currently active is pretty much in agreement about the drop to 4 range with +1R to the normal attack on Overclock.

Before we have the OP updated, though, I'd appreciate it if @Scytale could take a quick look at Post #394 to verify that this change won't cause any issues or require a longer stint in Editing. Taking a look at the Checklist, I don't believe that it will (since Overclock still works the same way, but just boosts one more stat), but I'm not an expert and I'd hate for us to accidentally propagate bad wording after Scytale's done so much work to make everything feasible.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Before we have the OP updated, though, I'd appreciate it if @Scytale could take a quick look at Post #394 to verify that this change won't cause any issues or require a longer stint in Editing. Taking a look at the Checklist, I don't believe that it will (since Overclock still works the same way, but just boosts one more stat), but I'm not an expert and I'd hate for us to accidentally propagate bad wording after Scytale's done so much work to make everything feasible.
Looks ok. I don't think it affects the Checklist at all, and I can't think of any weird corner caes.
 
Re: [Pod 0] Tetsuo Tyrell (Jace, Investigator) - Playtesting

Perfect. Thanks for checking that, Scytale.
@NecroBlade, whenever you get a chance, could we get the OP updated to ensure that people are testing the latest version of Tetsuo?
 
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