[Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides - Editing

[NecroBlade]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I think we've more or less circled back around near the original suggestions for this design. At one point we may have been very close to this except "after" the turn instead of "before", which opened up concerns that led us down a rabbit hole...

I don't think I'll hate it whatever we decide on small/medium. Dragons and soulborgs or not, we'll still have Kaemon Awa (which, if I'm being honest, is the first thing I thought of since he's my favorite figure). I'd be willing to test large/huge inclusive, though.

 

[NecroBlade]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Playtest here.

HSG good that they're cheap since they don't do much on their own and Last Will usually makes them a later-game piece, but Last Will is a fun ability to try. Last Will was also the only ability deemed leaning toward the complex side, but I think we knew that and it's a very thematic power. Floated the idea of them exploding or something else when removed to give them something else to do, but I don't think that fits the design (and would probably raise their points). Another idea was to place the Hero adjacent to the HSG before destroying it (instead of destroying it then taking the exact space) and I could get behind that as a way to open up some options.

That would make:

LAST WILL
After revealing an order marker on this card but before taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, choose one of your previously destroyed [small or medium] Unique Heroes that is not on this card. Remove all wound markers from the chosen Hero's card, place it adjacent to a Soul-Guide you control, then destroy a that Soul-Guide you control, and place that Hero on the space the Soul-Guide occupied. Take a turn with that Hero, then destroy it and place it on this card.

 

[Pumpkin_King]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Bumping this to say that I like that version of the power. They've been circling for a while and you're close to nailing it down. From my reading that doesn't seem like it would be problematic mechanically.

 

[Astroking112]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Thanks for the bump, PK! Time flies as of late.

LAST WILL
After revealing an order marker on this card but before taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, choose one of your previously destroyed [small or medium] Unique Heroes that is not on this card. Remove all wound markers from the chosen Hero's card, place it adjacent to a Soul-Guide you control, then destroy a that Soul-Guide you control, and place that Hero on the space the Soul-Guide occupied. Take a turn with that Hero, then destroy it and place it on this card.

I like this. It might get messy mechanically with the "...before taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides" bit, though, especially in relation to the timing of the revived figure being destroyed. An easy example is cheerleaders like Taelord or Velkhor potentially buffing the remaining Soul-Guide. I think the intuitive reading is that the hero is destroyed before the bonded turn, but it might be easier to change this back to "instead of taking a turn" again. I'd like to get Scytale's input on this as well.

How do we feel about making this change and returning the HSG to Editing? Pinging @Captain Stupendous as well.

 

[Astroking112]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Accidental double post.

 

[Scytale]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Thanks for the bump, PK! Time flies as of late.

LAST WILL
After revealing an order marker on this card but before taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides, choose one of your previously destroyed [small or medium] Unique Heroes that is not on this card. Remove all wound markers from the chosen Hero's card, place it adjacent to a Soul-Guide you control, then destroy a that Soul-Guide you control, and place that Hero on the space the Soul-Guide occupied. Take a turn with that Hero, then destroy it and place it on this card.

I like this. It might get messy mechanically with the "...before taking a turn with the Honored Soul-Guides" bit, though, especially in relation to the timing of the revived figure being destroyed. An easy example is cheerleaders like Taelord or Velkhor potentially buffing the remaining Soul-Guide. I think the intuitive reading is that the hero is destroyed before the bonded turn, but it might be easier to change this back to "instead of taking a turn" again. I'd like to get Scytale's input on this as well.

How do we feel about making this change and returning the HSG to Editing? Pinging @Captain Stupendous as well.

I don't understand why you'd want to make this change, but it seems ok. I don't think timing is particularly confusing; it seems fairly clear that the Hero would be destroyed at the end of its turn before the Soul-Guides turn. That can be clarified in an R&C. But I still dislike this unit as forcing a theme, regardless of complexity, in a set specifically designed for new players.

 

[NecroBlade]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

The change simply gives a little more flexibility in placement with no additional overhead. I agree the timing works just fine. I'll update the OP since everyone seems on board.

It does have a little complexity, but can you clarify what feels forced?

 

[Captain Stupendous]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

How do we feel about making this change and returning the HSG to Editing? Pinging @Captain Stupendous as well.

I support this change. A nice return to (relative) simplicity.

The only thing that I'm not sold on is the class of Psychopomps. Looking up the definition, it seems to fit quite well, but the fact that most people would need to consult a dictionary to have any idea what the word means is problematic for a new class, which should typically be relatively straightforward, especially for a Master Set figure.

At this point I think I'd prefer something like Sentinels or Guards.

 

[Scytale]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

It does have a little complexity, but can you clarify what feels forced?

Making them soul guides feels forced to me. It fits the miniatures, but plenty of ghost-y ideas would. To make them fit the soul guide concept, they obviously need to do something soul-guidey (though I question why soul guides are fighting on a battlefield in the first place), and thus the Revenant's Tome-like temporary return to life (which doesn't feel like guiding the dead, honestly).

They could have had a chance to auto-kill, guiding an enemy soul to the afterlife. Or they could have had a creepy "lanterns floating in the haze" sort of power. Or something more mundane (for undead). Lots of potential directions that don't rely on giving turns to dead units.

To be clear, I like the soul guides concept is cool and it's implemented pretty well. But I don't like it as a first-exposure design. To much complexity, not enough focus on core mechanics.

 

[Just_a_Bill]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

To make them fit the soul guide concept, they obviously need to do something soul-guidey (though I question why soul guides are fighting on a battlefield in the first place) ...

... Lots of potential directions that don't rely on giving turns to dead units.

Just an outside observer here, but I have to agree with all of this. The intended theme is transitioning souls from life to death, but the gameplay is opposite that: taking a dead figure (potentially a long-dead figure) and bringing them back to life. Or at best forcing them to haunt the living. It really is Revenant's Tome on an army card. The theme is great, and the gameplay is fine, albeit rehashed; but they don't feel like they belong together.

For the soul-guiding concept to feel authentic it probably needs to somehow affect a figure at the moment of death, not 8 rounds later.

The gameplay feels like it's telling the story of a violation of the natural way things work when somebody dies. Resurrecting a dead warrior to send it on one last blood quest doesn't feel very honoring, or very Jandar, or very "guide me into my final rest."

I would recommend deciding whether you like the theme or the gameplay better, and then develop the other one accordingly. Especially in a set designed to initiate new players, it's important that form and function go together hand in glove.

 

[NecroBlade]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I guess for me I've always seen them it in the sense of spirits lingering with unfinished business. I can see the concern in the context of Heroscape's Valhalla, though. I'm open to ideas for either giving them a theme that matches the mechanics better, or mechanics that align with the theme better. I do like the current concept and execution of the power, though.

 

[Just_a_Bill]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I'm open to ideas for either giving them a theme that matches the mechanics better, or mechanics that align with the theme better. I do like the current concept and execution of the power, though.

So a big part of the problem for me is that a Psychopomp is not a dead person who is still wandering restlessly or haunting or trying to enact revenge or whatever; they are actually a worker in the afterlife whose assigned job is to escort the dead.

If the main intended story is that they have unfinished business and need to wound or kill other living people, I would recommend steering away from the whole Psychopomp mythology and maybe portraying these figures as the spirits of the dead themselves. It seems there could be at least two general directions to go with this:

1. As the spirits of figures killed in this battle. In this approach they would likely need to start the game not on the battlefield (as Scytale kind of alluded to), then could be swapped in to replace one of your Unique Heroes at the moment of its destruction. This could still give you an effect much like what you've got now, where each one provides a shot at re-using one of your dead figures for one turn. But first the lantern geist figure wanders the battlefield for a while, then (sooner or later) fights a final turn as a proxy for that original figure (otherwise there's not much reason to even have the geist figures). Maybe you can take that final turn with the geist as soon as your next turn, or if that's not enough of a wait you can build in a d20 roll or require revealing the "X" or make it optional at the beginning/end of any round, whatever. Anything that feels like it justifies the presence of the separate figure, so that they "wander" for at least a short time before trying to finish their unfinished business.

2. As the spirits of figures killed in previous battles. In this approach they can start the game on the battlefield, wandering around with high defense and low (or no?) attack, awaiting the opportunity to re-manifest as their former self for one turn to attempt finishing their unfinished business. I have a custom Glyph that does something like this:

GLYPH OF QILDE – Permanent Glyph
SUMMONING WELLSPRING
Before Order Markers are repositioned between rounds, if you have a Kyrie on this Glyph you may choose one Army Card from outside the game that you do not already have a copy of in your army. Roll the 20-sided die and multiply your roll by 10. If you roll higher than the chosen card’s Points value, add that card to your army and place its figures on any empty spaces within 2 clear sight spaces of this Glyph. Each player may summon only one Army Card per game using a Glyph of Qilde.

For the lantern dudes, then, I might suggest something like this:

Before taking a turn with Unfinished Business Geists, you may choose one [Unique?] Hero from outside the game that you do not already have a copy of in your army. Roll the 20-sided die and multiply your roll by 10.
• If you roll equal to or lower than the chosen Hero’s Points value, take the Unfinished Business Geists' turn.
• If you roll higher than the chosen Hero’s Points value, destroy an Unfinished Business Geist you control and place the chosen Hero on the space it occupied. Instead of taking the Unfinished Business Geists' turn, take a turn with that Hero, then destroy it and remove it from the game immediately afterward.

Unfortunately this whole approach has two problems: it's all a bit complex for the intended noob audience, and these storylines don't fit very well with the appearance of the miniatures. So I'll have another thought in my next post....

 

[Just_a_Bill]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

The lanterns really do suggest some kind of Psychopomp theme, and personally I would rather see the gameplay modified to fit the sculpts. In that mode, my next thought would be something like this:

3. As otherworldly figures that actually help guide or "process" the dead. Maybe the value of the geists could be that they usually just guide the dead along (with some nominal benefit/reward for doing so), but once in a while they carry out their boss' assessment that "it's not your time yet." One simple-ish way to do this could be with some variant of a Sacred Band Defy Death/Leaf of the Home Tree Aura kind of power. Thematically, though, it shouldn't just prevent or heal wounds; it should probably (in rare cases) take somebody who was literally destroyed and send them back to the world of the living. Here's a quick stab at that:

GUIDING THE DEAD
When any figure within __ clear sight spaces of a Psychopomp you control is destroyed and removed from the battlefield, you may roll the 20-sided die.
• If you roll a 1-18, place the destroyed figure on this Army Card.
• If you roll a 19 or higher, place the destroyed figure on the battlefield within 2 spaces of the space(s) it occupied. If that figure was destroyed by wound marker accumulation, remove just enough wound markers to prevent it from being immediately re-destroyed.

When rolling for initiative, you may add the number of figures placed on this card to your roll. Guiding the Dead does not affect Undead figures. Destroyed Psychopomps are not placed on this card.

This, to me, has some interesting effects. Of course the ability to nudge where the "not your time yet" figures are returned to the battlefield can have some tactical importance, but I find it more intriguing that I can guide my opponents' figures if I want to rack up initiative modifiers more quickly, understanding that I risk reviving 10% of them.

In this model I would again give the geists low attack and high defense, so you are incentivized to use them for their thematic role, and your opponent is incentivized to commit resources to take them down early since the longer they live, the more trouble they will cause. I always like units with good potential to make the other player feel unsettled or drive them to less-than-optimal tactical choices. (At my old job, we had a saying for units like this: sometimes "the threat is stronger than the execution.")

 

[Scytale]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I would recommend something much simpler.

GUIDE TO THE AFTERLIFE
After attacking with a Soul-Guide, if the defending figure received at least one wound, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, destroy that figure and the Soul-Guide.

 

[Captain Stupendous]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I would recommend something much simpler.

GUIDE TO THE AFTERLIFE
After attacking with a Soul-Guide, if the defending figure received at least one wound, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, destroy that figure and the Soul-Guide.

That feels distinctly evil to me though? Since he's only "guiding" your opponent's figures? To me an autokill power feels even more thematically at odds with the idea of a benevolent soul guide than a temporary revival power.

 

[wriggz]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I would recommend something much simpler.

GUIDE TO THE AFTERLIFE
After attacking with a Soul-Guide, if the defending figure received at least one wound, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, destroy that figure and the Soul-Guide.

That feels distinctly evil to me though? Since he's only "guiding" your opponent's figures? To me an autokill power feels even more thematically at odds with the idea of a benevolent soul guide than a temporary revival power.

They don't look like good ghosts. They look like the ghost of Christmas future. Maybe you want to rebrand them as reapers.

 

[Scytale]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I would recommend something much simpler.

GUIDE TO THE AFTERLIFE
After attacking with a Soul-Guide, if the defending figure received at least one wound, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, destroy that figure and the Soul-Guide.

That feels distinctly evil to me though? Since he's only "guiding" your opponent's figures? To me an autokill power feels even more thematically at odds with the idea of a benevolent soul guide than a temporary revival power.

Is it evil to kill evil enemies in a battle? If we're putting Soul-Guides on a battlefield, they're fighting for some cause.

 

[NecroBlade]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Riffing on that:

GUIDE TO THE AFTERLIFE
After an enemy figure within X clear sight spaces of an Honored Soul-Guide defends against a normal or special attack, if that figure did not roll any excess shields and has 1 Life remaining, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 17 or higher, destroy that figure and a Soul-Guide you control.

Turns a "near miss" into "your time to go". Gives them a little more utility without having to attack themselves. Can quickly go after Squads since they always have 1 Life, but either way you're taking a max of 2 with you. And an another idea would be extending it to all figures (so they're not specifically going after enemies), but with a big +X for enemy figures so it doesn't backfire too often.

 

[Just_a_Bill]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

They don't look like good ghosts. They look like the ghost of Christmas future. Maybe you want to rebrand them as reapers.

As it turns out, I did some research a day or two ago that might shed some light (no pun intended) on the appearance of the figures. Whether they seem good or evil might depend on how far one drills down into the layers of mythology.

The AotP Lantern Geists card is rather unhelpful in developing theme/personality, since all they do is spy on a card and leave the battlefield, so I googled around and found a wiki called Realm of Midgard. I can't tell what source(s) drive it, but like Scape this wiki seems to be based on a blend of mythologies with a strong Norse component, so maybe it's somewhat relevant? Anyway its mythological framework says that Lantern Geists are evil, horrific, eldritch creations that steal the souls of the living and the dead. This of course is not helpful for an honored Jandar unit, but even worse, it says that geists can harm the living but cannot be touched by mortals at all, making this backstory even more unhelpful for a game in which all figures need to be able to attack each other.

However, Lantern Geists are evil corruptions of something called a Lantern Archon, which among its many roles does indeed have the psychopompy job of guiding the dead into the afterlife. They also seem very honor/Jandar-compatible, since Archons in general are guardians of various types who aid those of Orderly alignment and fight against chaos. Lantern Archons in particular are said to be creatures of pure light; a special type of good archon created by and for Angels to serve them in various ways.

I like all this backstory, but I still don't know how to map it onto bringing somebody back from the dead to kill again for one last turn, or how to make that mechanic feel honorable and Jandary. But, if there is a desire to retain the Jandar and honor elements, then maybe thinking of these figures as archons rather than geists can help. For me, this actually fits the miniatures perfectly. Their poses and coloration seem rather serene, as opposed to the terrifying eldritch evils which are about to imprison your soul in a lantern that AotP was apparently trying to invoke.

So I guess what I'm saying is it's reasonable to interpret the minis either way, but I would 100% buy them as Lantern Archons (and it's a pretty great title for a unit).

 

[Just_a_Bill]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

I also had a brainstorm about another way to legitimize the Psychopomp class.

GUIDING INTO THE AFTERLIFE
When a figure is destroyed and removed from the battlefield, if no Psychopomps you control were adjacent to that figure, you may place [an Honored Soul-Guide | a Lantern Archon] you control onto or adjacent to the space(s) the destroyed figure occupied. [Honored Soul-Guides | Lantern Archons] do not guide the Undead, Constructs, Animata, or Destructible Objects.

This probably isn't enough horsepower on its own, but as one power on the card it feels sufficiently Psychopompy to me, and the tactical positioning and glyph-holding/stealing possibilities are interesting.

 

[Just_a_Bill]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

To me an autokill power feels even more thematically at odds with the idea of a benevolent soul guide than a temporary revival power.

Have to agree with this, too. Psychopomps are transitioners or path-guides, not assassins. I don't have a problem with these guys battling in the course of their business, but that's really a separate thing from their guiding. When a death occurs, the psychopomp is an effect, not the cause. If they're going out and destroying the figures they guide, that feels like a corruption of the job description that's using it as an excuse to kill.

To be clear, I don't have any problem with murderer-ghosts or soulstealer-spirits. I just don't buy portraying them as honorable or calling 'em psychopomps.

 

[Captain Stupendous]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Leaning into the idea of them acting as guides, I came up with this much different direction for them.

HONORED SOUL GUIDES

Undead / Unique Squad (2 figures) / Sentinels / Stoic
1 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 2 Attack / 5 Defense

Journey Through the Spirit World
Whenever a figure you control ends its normal move adjacent to a Soul Guide you control, you may place that figure adjacent to a different Soul Guide you control. Figures moved by Journey Through the Spirit World never take leaving engagement attacks.

Stealth Flying
When counting spaces for an Honored Soul-Guide's movement, ignore elevations. An Honored Soul-Guide may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If an Honored Soul-Guide is engaged when it starts to fly, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Thoughts, @Astroking112, @NecroBlade, @Scytale @flameslayer93?

 

[Knox]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Discussed it on discord but huge fan of this version of the HSG. Support Tony's discord suggestion of limiting it to 1-2 figures that can use Journey Through the Spirit World per turn

 

[Scytale]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Journey Through the Spirit World
Whenever a figure you control ends its normal move adjacent to a Soul Guide you control, you may place that figure adjacent to a different Soul Guide you control. Figures moved by Journey Through the Spirit World never take leaving engagement attacks.

This can cause problems with "after moving and before attacking" powers, as it adds another power alongside any such power a unit may already have. Though timing with those can be handled, there are messier ones that also happen when movement ends like Swamp Water Tunnel. Most importantly, it doesn't play nicely with the current design for Dienekes who is in the same set.

 

[Captain Stupendous]

Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design

Journey Through the Spirit World
Whenever a figure you control ends its normal move adjacent to a Soul Guide you control, you may place that figure adjacent to a different Soul Guide you control. Figures moved by Journey Through the Spirit World never take leaving engagement attacks.

This can cause problems with "after moving and before attacking" powers, as it adds another power alongside any such power a unit may already have. Though timing with those can be handled, there are messier ones that also happen when movement ends like Swamp Water Tunnel. Most importantly, it doesn't play nicely with the current design for Dienekes who is in the same set.

Those are good observations. Do you think the concept as a whole is untenable, or would it be possible to craft a different version of the power that would avoid some of the messier interactions you mentioned?

I'd considered the following, which might fix some of the problematic interactions, but may introduce new ones, as well as introduce balance concerns?

Also, does the theme land any better for you than previous implementations?

Whenever a figure you control moves adjacent to a Soul Guide you control, you may place that figure adjacent to a different Soul Guide you control. Figures moved by Journey Through the Spirit World never take leaving engagement attacks. Journey Through the Spirit World may only be used once per turn.