Online Player Rankings Thread

[vegietarian18]

The other system, that was announced as the official system, with playoff wins counting as points? I thought I was in after my performance in Season 5 and 6 and didn't put the same effort into 7 and 8.

(Also, I'll note that system did not count anything before the season it was announced in...)

 

[dok]

vegie, what you're referring to wasn't announced as an official system (well, Kinseth had something up for a few hours at one point but we pulled it back). There was some stuff informally tossed about but that's pretty much all.

Based on your recollection of that system, is there anyone who would have qualified who is now on the outside?

Frankly, it really seems like you're making some pretty abstract complaints about process without really having any issue with the outcomes. I agree it would have been nice if this had all been announced in January, but I'm not sure it would have made any difference at all.

 

[Kinseth]

We mentioned it was going to be end of year, and it was an invitational tournament based on how you performed. This has been known for a while, it isn't news.

If I am reading it correctly, now that there is a EoY tournament people are suddenly now playing to win as to compared before? I don't think it matters at all. Only that some players who decided not to play in events might not make it, but then again if they are choosing not to play in some events making a end of year playoff format likely isn't a big deal to them.

In the end its a system we think is fair, and after the first year and seeing how it plays out we will make tweaks and changes if need be.

 

[Kinseth]

The other system, that was announced as the official system, with playoff wins counting as points? I thought I was in after my performance in Season 5 and 6 and didn't put the same effort into 7 and 8.

(Also, I'll note that system did not count anything before the season it was announced in...)

I posted that, but didn't realize we were not done figuring it out. I jumped the gun and it was incorrect.

 

[vegietarian18]

A few hours? Kinseth posted it in January and there wasn't anything said about a potential different system mentioned until JUNE. That's blatantly false.

I don't know exactly how many playoff wins people have, but I know Robber would probably be in, greygnarl would probably be close, and I would probably be in. It's hard to tell without calculating every person's points, which I can't really do right now. I'm just going off the top of my head.

I'm not really making abstract complaints either; my complaint is that system was changed, and is taking data from seasons where it was not announced. I think announcing it January WOULD have made a difference, and I know that is true in my case. I admit that go was arguing abstractly before, but that's because I hadn't said what my real issue was.

 

[caps]

Based on your recollection of that system, is there anyone who would have qualified who is now on the outside?

Maybe me? I might have been in the top 20-25 by the points system, as I've made it into the playoffs 2-3 times (getting pretty deep in the PYP system).

 

[Kinseth]

My post from January

So I put out an idea about running an end of year championship to the Heroscape Online Team. We all like the idea and it just needs some polishing. We would like to hear from the Heroscape Online Community on what they would like to see for an end of the year championship.

Some ideas we have kicked around would be.
(32) Man Single Elimination Playoff.
Qualifying in some way or another
-A points system where winning a tournament nets you X points, coming in second nets you Y points and making playoffs nets you Z points. Top 32 make it in.
-Or a system where you are invited for your performance in one tournament, along with inviting people from Live Scape events. Such as Winners of Gencon events and other public events that had X players or more.

Do you have any thoughts on the Championship? Would you be for it? What part excites you about it? We parts would put you off about it. Any thoughts or ideas in the matter, feel free to leave them here.

Its clear that a system that involves how well you did was discussed initially(And we have a system that is based on how well you performed, just not the points system that was kicked around at the start.) In all honesty we said that we have this awesome ranking system, why not just use it? Its going to do a better job than a point ranking system mentioned above. And we made one exception , and that is invite all winners to the event.

We made it clear we were going to have some End of Year, we just didn't know what it would look like. Fair warning as far back as January on this. Any rankings method is going to favor one thing or another.

 

[vegietarian18]

I dunno, it seemed like in the middle of the thread that system was going to be what you were going with. Maybe there was misinterpretation somewhere.

Every system will have flaws, but logically, whatever system you go with should not take data from before it was announced.

 

[dok]

A few hours? Kinseth posted it in January and there wasn't anything said about a potential different system mentioned until JUNE. That's blatantly false.

No, it depends what you were referring to. I wasn't sure which you meant.

Kinseth had a thread up for a long time but it was explicitly not official or set in stone.

(Kinseth had something "official" up for a matter of hours, a couple weeks before the actual thing was up. But we clawed it back and continued discussions.)

logically, whatever system you go with should not take data from before it was announced.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. To me, an "end of year championship" that only includes events from the end of the summer and the fall isn't much of an end of year championship.

Would it have been better if we had hashed this out and posted it in January? Yes, sure. But again, I don't think the outcome of which players would be playing is very much different from how it would be if we had.

 

[Kinseth]

I just re-read the discussion, and no thoughts were brought up about limiting it to only events after the official format was announced. We made it clear in the Community Discussion that we didn't have a official format but there would be one at some point.

In the end guys remember, there are no entry fees, there are no $ prizes(Hasn't been for a bunch of seasons. Other than some custom Dice). We are not "Stealing" anything from anyone that doesn't make it into the field(other than the chance to compete). We do this for fun, we sacrifice our time to put on the biggest and best events we can and hopefully allow everyone to play heroscape and have fun. We don't make any money off of this, and this system will potential exclude several of the Organizers from even qualifying in the event based on the ranking right now. We have come up with a system we think is fair and rewards those who have done enough to qualify for the playoffs.

We appreciate a healthy discussion on this, and will continue to listen. I just wanted to make the above statement so people understand where us as Organizers are coming from.

 

[vegietarian18]

I don't think this is a situation where "agree to disagree" is the right answer. I honestly do not get why you think it makes sense to use all of these games when no one had any idea they mattered for this context.

To be completely honest, this seems like a system that benefits the people that decided on using it.

EDIT: I get what you are saying Kinseth. I think that this format could just be a bit more fair.

 

[dok]

So, given that an official format and qualifying structure wasn't announced until late August, what are you actually suggesting here? Are you suggesting we should only use season 9 and season 10 and ignore everything else?

You are not making a coherent argument, vegie.

 

[Kinseth]

Kinseth, Filthy, Bengi, Awesome unleashed are already in because they won an event. Therefore the rankings affect the other organizers(Dok, Mega, Xorlof). Dok clearly has earned his way no matter how you dice it. So therefore we are taking a system that now can exclude Mega and Xorlof at this point. I don't see how this system now benefits the Organizers, when it puts two of them at jeopardy.

Yes we wished we had it hashed out sooner, but we were busy working on the current events and with Gencon coming up in the summer we just didn't hash it out as fast as we wanted too.

The reason why we are using all of these games is that it would be unfair to everyone who played before and all of the success they had if we excluded that. And as Dok said, EoY championship isn't really a big deal if we include 2 seasons...

 

[Foudzing]

It eventually works itself out, the only explanation for why some players with worst win % are ranked higher than others is because some players may have played harder schedules.

If you look at Megasilver history he did not get a Strengh of Schedule especially harder than others players.
Dok said he proved himself as a solid player, to me and I think some people thinks like me, maintain a near 50% ratio is not being a "solid" player it's being a "medium" or "average" player.

I agree that the ranking system should advantage people who manage to maintain a solid win ratio for a long time but seriously 50% is not a solid win ratio 60% is not a solid win ratio. Over 66% yes here you start to be serious player.

When I look at the rankings I've the feeling that the number of games played is way more important than the win ratio.
It's like first you have to play a lot of games (at least 10) and then you can be placed at a decent place.
It's not cool for new players.

 

[vegietarian18]

So, given that an official format and qualifying structure wasn't announced until late August, what are you actually suggesting here? Are you suggesting we should only use season 9 and season 10 and ignore everything else?

You are not making a coherent argument, vegie.

Either use the rankings but only use season 9 and 10 (as I have said before) or use the playoff point system and use seasons 5-10. My argument is that you cannot pull from a time before the format is announced. I don't think that's hard to understand.

The reason it benefits organizers is because dok is going to be the number one seed, and you and Filthy will be in easily. I'm not sure the same would be true if the playoff point system was used. Mega and Xorlof wouldn't be in either way so they are not really relevant to this discussion.

 

[Kinseth]

Win ratios do not matter, not everyones schedules are equal, therefore win ratios are not equal. That's why we have a ratings system, instead of just a Win - Loss ratio to decide how you are ranked.

 

[dok]

Either use the rankings but only use season 9 and 10 (as I have said before)

I think it's ridiculous to do that and call it an EoY championship. It's a nonstarter.

or use the playoff point system and use seasons 5-10. My argument is that you cannot pull from a time before the format is announced. I don't think that's hard to understand.

The playoff point system you are referring to was not "announced" as official. Nothing was official before August 20th when the current format was announced.

The reason it benefits organizers is because dok is going to be the number one seed

Huh? I'm pretty sure sparkle will be #1, although I suppose I could pass him if I do really well in S10. (Given that he won't be taking losses and how hard it is for me to build my ranking any higher given my low variance, I'd probably have to win the season.)

[Kinseth] and Filthy will be in easily. I'm not sure the same would be true if the playoff point system was used.

Given that that system let in event winners, they would. But since that wasn't official, I'm not sure what the point of even arguing it is.

At this point I think we've said what needs to be said. If you don't want to participate that's your decision.

 

[vegietarian18]

I think it's ridiculous to use seasons before the playoff qualification system was announced. It's bad either way, but I think the current system is worse.

The fact that Kinseth posted a thread with that system shows that it was pretty close to being official.

"Don't participate" is a pretty lame way to end this discussion. As is evident by the fact that I'm arguing against a system that boosts my ranking, this isn't about me. It's about being fair to everyone.

 

[Foudzing]

Win ratios do not matter, not everyones schedules are equal, therefore win ratios are not equal. That's why we have a ratings system, instead of just a Win - Loss ratio to decide how you are ranked.

Yeah but I think that a simple win - loss ratio with a rule that you've to play 2 seasons to be ranked to makes your ratio valid should be a way better ranking system.

The Xbox live system is not appropriate at all for our community with very few players and very few games played.
It's cool to try to do a system where the SoS matters but it just does not work well.

That's what I feel when I look at the rankings.

Also SoS does not include machups for example when Robber beat me in season 6 something which gave him a ton of points I guess. He had a very easy machup (and got a ton of luck) and I still managed to make this a close fight because he made a relatively high number of mitakes.
It was not a good performance compared to the amount of points he got from this.
It's only an example.

 

[dok]

I think it's ridiculous to use seasons before the playoff qualification system was announced.

Given that you've basically painted yourself into a corner where you have no good alternative, this is not a useful criticism.

The fact that Kinseth posted a thread with that system shows that it was pretty close to being official.

"Pretty close" is not official. In fact it was rather explicitly not official. I'm sorry you took it to mean as much, but it wasn't and never claimed to be.

"Don't participate" is a pretty lame way to end this discussion. As is evident by the fact that I'm arguing against a system that boosts my ranking, this isn't about me. It's about being fair to everyone.

Nobody ever claimed you were acting out of selfish self-interest (although you did accuse us of acting that way). That said, I can find nothing useful to get out of your complaints and accusations. Maybe someone else can contribute a useful suggestion, but this isn't going anywhere.