Those are super awesome; I was wondering if those were considered the "release-ready" concept that @Dad_Scaper was talking about. Either way I'd love to proxy any version we have permission for
-
Welcome to the Heroscapers 2.0 site! We've still got some dust to clear and adjustments to make, including launching a new front page, but we hope you enjoy the improvements to the site. Please post your feedback and any issues you encounter in this thread.
Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Haslab!
- Thread starter MegaSilver
- Start date
Those are super awesome; I was wondering if those were considered the "release-ready" concept that @Dad_Scaper was talking about. Either way I'd love to proxy any version we have permission for
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
ANNOUNCEMENT INCOMING RIGHT HERE PAY ATTENTION FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE PUT DOWN YOUR COFFEE THIS IS SERIOUS AND I MEAN SERIOUS
Greeings, gentle reader interested in the Age of Annihilation. Thank you for your attention to this moment in the history of our beloved game. I would like to share something with you.
The Avalon Hill team released many units to the world - and to us, the community - including several even as the campaign was winding down, with no chance of success. I am fortunate to have been released from the NDA to discuss certain subjects, including the evolution of designs that have been released. To that end, I am permitted to say, and I do say, the following:
Every unit that was released was in final form to our satisfaction as designers and playtesters. The only changes that might have followed were cosmetic, including (1) names of units and powers, and (2) precise "height" value. Other than those two things, these units were all final, to our satisfaction and to Craig's.
I have heard, but not seen, that some expressed a concern that these designs were still "beta." They were not. They were finished. Were they released as part of a finished AH product? No. But they were finished.
Thank you.
Master Roshi
Member
This is good to hear, I appreciate the confirmation on the released unit card. Thank you!
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
They are very, very similar. Not quite the same, but close. As I see it.
Indeed, they were both offered from Hasbro essentially as gestures to the community. Many of these AoA units were released on the day before the campaign ended, at a time when they surely saw the writing on the wall.
Indeed, they were both offered from Hasbro essentially as gestures to the community. Many of these AoA units were released on the day before the campaign ended, at a time when they surely saw the writing on the wall.
I don’t think VC is in the business of changing official cards, so I wouldn’t expect to see that. If there are any combination issues, I think VC would tweak on their end (but these issues seem hypothetical only).
I know for relatively sure that official testers do not test with customs.
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
We are discussing how to address this issue. Expect an announcement soon.
Excellent question, without an obvious or easy answer.
When designing AoA, we did not test with the C3V/SoV content.
Zeldarck
Member
I was wondering if on the end with the arrival of other VCs peoples, some tests have been run not officially
I hope to see a clear status of VC about them and their inclusion or not in future design too. With update of AoA cards if needed. And if it's an update of existing C3V/SoV. I think it should open the door of updating classic scape/C3V/Sov/AoA cards when needed, to reword stuff or tweak some values with the visibility of years of playing
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
Like I said. Expect us to address it.
Shadowking
Active member
@Dad_Scaper just dropping a line to see if you (or anyone else who was involved reads this honestly) can/are willing to share anything regarding various stuff with Age of Annilihation; not "new info"/info on unrevealed content as such, as a person interested in game design myself I'm just interested in some of the "behind the curtains" info regarding the design side of it. I know you've shared some info & stated you've been open to questions on some of the podcasts and videos you've been on, so was just wondering/hoping if you'd be willing to answer one or more of these questions regarding various things at all?
1. Was there a general "top-down" design philosophy or statement for AoA overall? Did it have specific design goals you guys wanted to capture? Sort of like an overall mission statement I guess. Were elements of it designed with the concept that it would later comprise some form of more traditional Master Set in mind?
2. How did the faction selection come about? Were the faction ideas handed down to you, or did you guys come up with them as a collaborative process? Were more historical-based units decided to not be a focus from higher-ups or was it more just coincidence that they weren't looked too heavily in AoA (or something like it not being a mandate or anything, but just that people didn't feel like they fit the other goals for the set?
3. Do you have any fun stories you can share from the design process? Funny design stories, playtest stories, that sort of thing? Obviously any sensitive info can be redacted if that would otherwise make you unable to share, but I always like hearing those.
4. What unit changed the most during design (either the most iterations or the biggest difference from concept to final card, or honestly both)? Again, specific details of older versions etc can be redacted on that of course.
5. How much intentionality was there behind the inclusion of synergy with older units/how much of it was more incidental or a nice bonus to things? Things like Dorim working with Dwarves, a new Hivelord for the Grubs, etc. Would future units have also been planned to take advantage of those synergies (so you weren't stuck having to buy a 15 year out of print squad)? I really liked this aspect personally, but interested to hear how much of an actual philosophy it was, if you can share.
6. Was there a specific drive to push the boundaries on things that the original run never touched, like multi-life squads, 5-model squads, figures that could create glyphs, etc? That was another element of AoA I found very compelling.
7. This one is very specific but I know multiple people have brought it up so can't hurt to ask if there's a chance you can shed light on it: there's been some contention with how the two Ursine heroes' sculpts and personalities line up, with Adelbern being the unit that ended up Wild despite looking more militaristic/armored and discipled, while Oberon ended up being Valiant but has the giant flailing claws and snarling teeth. Personally I don't really consider it an "issue" but I am quite interested to hear if there's anything you can share as to the reasons behind why it ended up how it did, as generally I think the theming behind AoA is really well-done but that one stands out a bit without knowing what the intentionality behind it was.
8. What was your favourite AoA unit that you created (of what we saw revealed), your favourite one you didn't create, and why? (I'm not uninterested to hear your least favourites too, if you had them, but that seems a bit of a mean-spirited question perhaps? Haha)
1. Was there a general "top-down" design philosophy or statement for AoA overall? Did it have specific design goals you guys wanted to capture? Sort of like an overall mission statement I guess. Were elements of it designed with the concept that it would later comprise some form of more traditional Master Set in mind?
2. How did the faction selection come about? Were the faction ideas handed down to you, or did you guys come up with them as a collaborative process? Were more historical-based units decided to not be a focus from higher-ups or was it more just coincidence that they weren't looked too heavily in AoA (or something like it not being a mandate or anything, but just that people didn't feel like they fit the other goals for the set?
3. Do you have any fun stories you can share from the design process? Funny design stories, playtest stories, that sort of thing? Obviously any sensitive info can be redacted if that would otherwise make you unable to share, but I always like hearing those.
4. What unit changed the most during design (either the most iterations or the biggest difference from concept to final card, or honestly both)? Again, specific details of older versions etc can be redacted on that of course.
5. How much intentionality was there behind the inclusion of synergy with older units/how much of it was more incidental or a nice bonus to things? Things like Dorim working with Dwarves, a new Hivelord for the Grubs, etc. Would future units have also been planned to take advantage of those synergies (so you weren't stuck having to buy a 15 year out of print squad)? I really liked this aspect personally, but interested to hear how much of an actual philosophy it was, if you can share.
6. Was there a specific drive to push the boundaries on things that the original run never touched, like multi-life squads, 5-model squads, figures that could create glyphs, etc? That was another element of AoA I found very compelling.
7. This one is very specific but I know multiple people have brought it up so can't hurt to ask if there's a chance you can shed light on it: there's been some contention with how the two Ursine heroes' sculpts and personalities line up, with Adelbern being the unit that ended up Wild despite looking more militaristic/armored and discipled, while Oberon ended up being Valiant but has the giant flailing claws and snarling teeth. Personally I don't really consider it an "issue" but I am quite interested to hear if there's anything you can share as to the reasons behind why it ended up how it did, as generally I think the theming behind AoA is really well-done but that one stands out a bit without knowing what the intentionality behind it was.
8. What was your favourite AoA unit that you created (of what we saw revealed), your favourite one you didn't create, and why? (I'm not uninterested to hear your least favourites too, if you had them, but that seems a bit of a mean-spirited question perhaps? Haha)
Dad_Scaper
Enjoy the Sausage
Good questions! It was such an intense period of quick decisions that I don't know that I can answer each in the spirit in which it was asked. I'll see what I can do.
Hasbro's vision included a transition to faction-forward storytelling, which was not something that we challenged. Quite the contrary, it gave us direction when we were working on our own concepts.
As for historical, at first I advocated in favor of including historical figures. I think that is such delightful space to mine. For instance, I brought the idea of creating Ranjit Singh - the first, greatest, and only Sikh Emperor - to the C3V. Who knew? So cool.
But a serious discussion of historical units becomes freighted, pretty quickly, with dark conversations about unpleasant things. And those conversations also, often, seemed to include some people lecturing other people about what they should (or, far more often, should not) find offensive.
I was happy to pivot to a world in which my ideas that were directly drawn from history were, instead, modified to be "inspired by" history. Some of those units have been identified by the community; others are still there, unidentified, hiding in plain sight.
Anyway. I brought the idea of warring wizards to Craig. He showed me the wisdom of making them into their own cool-looking species, and their look was mostly his doing. The artists he was working with were also important in creating the look of each faction, but we had no direct interaction with them.
I will tell this story. I'd been working in the C3V since 2010, and on its leadership team since (roughly; I'd have to check) 2011. I've discussed many times the challenge of design in that context: make the theme match the mini, the mini match the mechanics, and the mechanics match the theme. If you've done those three things, you've done a good job. Working on AoA was different. I worked on transforming my ideas into a complete card. That was the (first) hard part. Well, one day, out of the blue, Craig sent me the professional artist's sketch of Bok-Bur-Na.
It was an emotional moment for me. It was an idea that I'd been gestating - a term I do not use accidentally - for months, and then there it was, realized more fantastically than I could have dreamed. It was a validation greater than what I had anticipated, a magical moment.
I love the armored bears. I was not the only teammember who wanted to design them, and I was very grateful that I was the one given the chance.
As for this particular debate, I enjoy reading fan theories. Theories like this, theories like Anitar's interpretations of the fuzzy-released cards. I just can't confirm things like that, no matter how well-reasoned they appear to be.
Favorite unit I didn't design? Maybe the Vorid Glide Strikers, again because of the awesome sculpts. I wish the cards did the sculpts more justice, but they were so sweet. That whole faction was fun.
I wish more of dok's design work saw the light of day. I know I was very lucky, in that so many of the cards I worked on made it out into the world.
Thank you for the opportunity to ask these interesting questions, Shadowking, and I applaud your patience with Brigdhe, your own design, which has blossomed into something fine. Good job!
We wanted to preserve the spirit of Heroscape. Our vision was to preserve it as a whimsical game that parents might want to get to play with their kids.
Hasbro's vision included a transition to faction-forward storytelling, which was not something that we challenged. Quite the contrary, it gave us direction when we were working on our own concepts.
Craig asked us to pitch him ideas for factions. I pitched a planet of warring mages, which made it into the box, and I pitched pirates, which also made it into the box. I had some other ideas that were not given the go-ahead at all, and other ideas that were not realized in AoA itself, but might have seen the light of day in the future.
As for historical, at first I advocated in favor of including historical figures. I think that is such delightful space to mine. For instance, I brought the idea of creating Ranjit Singh - the first, greatest, and only Sikh Emperor - to the C3V. Who knew? So cool.
But a serious discussion of historical units becomes freighted, pretty quickly, with dark conversations about unpleasant things. And those conversations also, often, seemed to include some people lecturing other people about what they should (or, far more often, should not) find offensive.
I was happy to pivot to a world in which my ideas that were directly drawn from history were, instead, modified to be "inspired by" history. Some of those units have been identified by the community; others are still there, unidentified, hiding in plain sight.
Anyway. I brought the idea of warring wizards to Craig. He showed me the wisdom of making them into their own cool-looking species, and their look was mostly his doing. The artists he was working with were also important in creating the look of each faction, but we had no direct interaction with them.
We were working on very tight deadlines and, though it was awesome and I am very proud of what we did together and it was deeply satisfying as a creator, I am not sure "fun" is the right word. It was exhilarating.
I will tell this story. I'd been working in the C3V since 2010, and on its leadership team since (roughly; I'd have to check) 2011. I've discussed many times the challenge of design in that context: make the theme match the mini, the mini match the mechanics, and the mechanics match the theme. If you've done those three things, you've done a good job. Working on AoA was different. I worked on transforming my ideas into a complete card. That was the (first) hard part. Well, one day, out of the blue, Craig sent me the professional artist's sketch of Bok-Bur-Na.
It was an emotional moment for me. It was an idea that I'd been gestating - a term I do not use accidentally - for months, and then there it was, realized more fantastically than I could have dreamed. It was a validation greater than what I had anticipated, a magical moment.
Every unit changed, dramatically, over the time we worked on them. Certainly mine, because I do not have a mastery of the mechanics of the game the same way that dok does. But his, too, changed dramatically over time. We held onto themes (FTMP), faithful to the factions, etc., but they all changed. A lot of work went into dialing them in.
It was intentional, and the impetus for it came from Craig. We had a pair of related, but ultimately contradictory, goals. First, anybody could get this set and be ready to play, without regard for the Old Stuff. Second, a person with the Old Stuff would feel a connection to this game, and would have accessible synergy, as well.
Yes. As above, we wanted it to feel both like Heroscape, and like something new. Both things at once.
As specific as this question is, I think it might be just beyond what I can discuss freely. I will say this.
I love the armored bears. I was not the only teammember who wanted to design them, and I was very grateful that I was the one given the chance.
As for this particular debate, I enjoy reading fan theories. Theories like this, theories like Anitar's interpretations of the fuzzy-released cards. I just can't confirm things like that, no matter how well-reasoned they appear to be.
My favorite is probably Bok-Bur-Na. The final design was true to the rough draft, and I see him as one of the great characters from the set, realized right there on the card. I wanted him to be a fearsome pirate captain, and he is. I am also partial to both bear squads, because I love the sculpts so much. The Ordo Borealis is my favorite unit sculpt in the entire set.
Favorite unit I didn't design? Maybe the Vorid Glide Strikers, again because of the awesome sculpts. I wish the cards did the sculpts more justice, but they were so sweet. That whole faction was fun.
I wish more of dok's design work saw the light of day. I know I was very lucky, in that so many of the cards I worked on made it out into the world.
Thank you for the opportunity to ask these interesting questions, Shadowking, and I applaud your patience with Brigdhe, your own design, which has blossomed into something fine. Good job!
Shadowking
Active member
Thank you for taking the time to answer them! I agree, I really like the sculpts for both the Ordo Borealis and the Frostclaw Paladins; in that one playtest video we saw their miniatures looked really nice and "chunky" too, as befitting for their theme. The "inspired by but not directly referencing historicals" angle is interesting (and I can see how it makes sense, especially when you take into account the move towards a more faction-driven storytelling set-up) - it was certainly visible in the pirate faction, and perhaps would have been moreso going forward with others; the other factions included in AoA specifically being a lot more "alien" to humans/history (not that they aren't cool in their own right of course) probably was part of why it maybe wasn't entirely noticed? But that's just me hypothesizing. The Bok-Bur-Na story is very cool too, I'm glad you were able to have that opportunity.
Thank you @Shadowking for the great questions!
And thank you @Dad_Scaper for the illuminating and thoughtful responses!
This is a great read.
And thank you @Dad_Scaper for the illuminating and thoughtful responses!
This is a great read.