What's new
  • Welcome to the Heroscapers 2.0 site! We've still got some dust to clear and adjustments to make, including launching a new front page, but we hope you enjoy the improvements to the site. Please post your feedback and any issues you encounter in this thread.

Helmaverse League International

A3n

A3n

"Let's Nut this Unit Out!"
Site Supporter
Ok, so I decided I wanted to get my designs back up here. But since it's been a long time I thought I would take the opportunity to freshen them up a little. But still keep them at the simplistic level on par with the original Marvel HS characters. I have been doing the card art for @Matt Helm & his wonderful Helmaverse for a while now & love his take on the characters while remaining true to the original Marvel HS designs also. So rather than having to design all the characters I will just use his ones & for those that he doesn't have he has agreed to collaborate on the cards to ensure that they fit in the Helmaverse. Now rather than clog Matt's thread with the crude unpolished works. I decided to start this thread where we do all the back & forth. So please feel free to provide your opinions on the designs as we go, especially you @streaky2007.

These are the characters I have designs for that Matt currently does not have in the works:
AbraKadabra - In playtesting.
Absorbing Man - Initial design now up.
Avalanche - Initial design now up.
Batgirl - Initial design now up.
Billy Batson - Initial design now up.
Bizarro - Initial design now up.
Blue Beetle - Initial design now up.
Booster Gold - Design discussion.
Cheetah - Initial design now up.
Diablo - Initial design now up.
Doomsday - Initial design now up.
Electra - Initial design now up.
Gambit - Initial design now up.
Harley Quinn - Initial design now up.
Hawkman - Initial design now up.
Hercules
Kobra - Initial design now up.
Malice
Man-Bat - Initial design now up.
Manhunter - Initial design now up.
Psylocke
Question
Scarecrow
Scourge
Steel
Weather Wizard
Wingmen of Thanagar - Initial design now up.


Carded designs:
Spoiler Alert!
 
Last edited:
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

First up, just because it's a fairly simple design & I like the character:
a3_blackfire.jpg


BLACKFIRE

TAMARANIAN
UNIQUE HERO
PRINCESS
VENGEFUL
MEDIUM 5

Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 4
Attack: 4
Defense: 5

Points: 170

JEALOUS RAGE
If Blackfire is attacking a figure that has the Flying or Stealth Flying special power and at least one revealed Order Marker on their card using a normal attack, add 2 dice to Blackfire’s attack.

STARBOLT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 7. Attack 3.
Each skull rolled counts for one additional hit. Starbolt Special Attack can only be used once per round.

Spoiler Alert!
 
Last edited:
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

Looking at the original card, this version seems more versatile than the Tamaran Hatred power. Her original class was Warrior. It may be worth going back to that to avoid a Vengeful Princess with the Vengeful Princess power. You’ve also dropped Super Strength. Was that intentional? Nice work. I’m looking forward to your cards in the Helmsverse.
 
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

I like the simplicity and the intent of the powers. This is definitely a great start.

The few questions I would have are:

1) Why Blackfire before Starfire? Do you have a plan to make them similar? I'm not really up on either character all that much other than from some cartoons. No worries if you want Blackfire before Starfire I was just curious.

2) Vengeful Princess - I like it but I'm afraid of tracking the targets. Do you have any concern that it wouldn't be clean to say "attacked a friendly figure this round"? It seems simple enough in a two player game but does it get more difficult in a 3 player or 4 player free for all to track every enemy who attacked a friendly? What about squad figures? If one squad figure attacks does she get the bonus against any figure in that squad?
 
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

Reading a bit more into Blackfire, I would say she’s mote manipulative than vengeful. The power reads like a passionate defense of her teammates, but she’s sociopathic and sees everyone as her pawns. She does have a chip on her shoulder about not being able to fly, so how about just +2 against Flying/Stealth Flying? That even helps overcome some of the huge advantage of Flying.
 
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

streaky2007 said:
Looking at the original card, this version seems more versatile than the Tamaran Hatred power. Her original class was Warrior. It may be worth going back to that to avoid a Vengeful Princess with the Vengeful Princess power. You’ve also dropped Super Strength. Was that intentional? Nice work. I’m looking forward to your cards in the Helmsverse.
Click to expand...
Yeah I wanted to make her more of a universal douche-bag than the narrow version of the original. I agree about the Vengeful Princess with Vengeful Princess power, I just couldn't think of a better name for the power as Tamaran Hatred didn't work anymore. Yeah the super strength was a conscious drop. I just wasn't convinced she was justified it.

Matt Helm said:
I like the simplicity and the intent of the powers. This is definitely a great start.

The few questions I would have are:

1) Why Blackfire before Starfire? Do you have a plan to make them similar? I'm not really up on either character all that much other than from some cartoons. No worries if you want Blackfire before Starfire I was just curious.

2) Vengeful Princess - I like it but I'm afraid of tracking the targets. Do you have any concern that it wouldn't be clean to say "attacked a friendly figure this round"? It seems simple enough in a two player game but does it get more difficult in a 3 player or 4 player free for all to track every enemy who attacked a friendly? What about squad figures? If one squad figure attacks does she get the bonus against any figure in that squad?
Click to expand...
1). Because I hadn't gotten to Starfire yet in translating my original cards to a text file. I only gotten down "D" in the list & of those I Starfire was the one I wanted to see changed the most. I will probably do Starfire next just to ensure we have the pair out there. ;)

2). You are 100% correct (as always). I rarely think about more than 2 players in a game. So...
streaky2007 said:
Reading a bit more into Blackfire, I would say she’s mote manipulative than vengeful. The power reads like a passionate defense of her teammates, but she’s sociopathic and sees everyone as her pawns. She does have a chip on her shoulder about not being able to fly, so how about just +2 against Flying/Stealth Flying? That even helps overcome some of the huge advantage of Flying.
Click to expand...
Yes she is manipulative, yes she is a sociopath, but they are just tools to her ultimate goal that destroying her sister & all Tamaranian's that supported her sister or had something to do with Blackfire's exile. Which is why I originally had the Tamaranian hatred power.

Having said that, & as I stated above I wanted her to be more universally hated. So I can get behind the hate of flyers, however it kinds of ruins the small symmetry I planned for Starfire. In fact I will post that design up now to consider while we work on Blackfire.
 
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

a3_starfire.jpg


STARFIRE

TAMARANIAN
UNIQUE HERO
PRINCESS
FIERY
MEDIUM 5

Life: 5
Move: 6
Range: 4
Attack: 4
Defense: 5

Points: 190

HOT HEAD
When Starfire attacks using a normal attack, she receives one extra attack die for each friendly figure within 3 clear sight spaces that has at least 1 wound marker on their card, up to a maximum of 3 extra attack dice for Hot Head.

STARBOLT SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 7. Attack 3.
Each skull rolled counts for one additional hit. Starbolt Special Attack can only be used once per round.

FLYING
When counting spaces for Starfire's movement, ignore elevations. Starfire may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When Starfire starts to fly, if she is engaged she will take any leaving engagement attacks.


Initial design
Spoiler Alert!
 
Last edited:
Re: A3n extension to the Helmaverse

I like Starfire. She's compassionate and protective. For Hot Head, I would probably go for something like this:

When attacking with Starfire's normal attack, you may choose up to 3 friendly figures within 3 (clear sight) spaces. Add 1 to your roll for each chosen figure. Figures chosen for this power must have at least 1 wound marker on their card.

I'm just thinking of younger players and how to read a power in order, broken into small sentences.

As for the Blackfire synergy, I would suggest keeping the flying thing, but an extra +1 if the player controls any Tamaranian figures.
I did read the 80s Wolfman/Perez run years ago, but haven't seen Blackfire much since, so you go with what feels more thematic to you.

PS - You're Austalian, Matt's from the US and I'm from the UK. I nominate this venture as Helmsverse League International (better let Matt be Blue Beetle though ;) )
 
Re: Helmsverse League International

:up: Not the style of wording for the power I was trying to emulate but definitely a valid & easier to understand verbiage.

I think this is more succinct if you don't think it would trip up anybody's understanding of it:
When attacking with Starfire's normal attack, you may choose up to 3 friendly figures within 3 clear sight spaces. Add 1 to your roll for each chosen figure with at least 1 wound marker on their card.
Click to expand...

By the way it was definitely supposed to be clear sight spaces. Not sure how or where I dropped that off.

Now Blackfire. So your suggestion:
When attacking with her normal attack, if Blackfire attacks an opponent's figure with the flying Special Power you may add 2 dice to her attack. Add an additional die to her attack if the opponent's figure is Tamaranian.
Click to expand...

And then a modified but easier to track version of what I was thinking:
When attacking with her normal attack, if Blackfire attacks an opponent's figure with a revealed Order Marker on their Army Card you may add 2 dice to her attack.
Click to expand...

Also love the name suggestion. Thread title updated. :up:

BTW: The power name "Hot Head" was stolen from @IAmBatman's orginal design. I believe I probably have stolen quite a few more titles from him for other upcoming designs. It's hard not use them when you have seen the perfect name. A lot of his titles are pun-tastic which is why you know he must be a great dad because as you know, puns are the butt of all dad jokes. ;)
 
Re: Helmsverse League International

Your re-wording of my re-wording is much better. Your re-done Vengeful Princess power works well too. Go with that if you prefer it to the flying thing. Good work :)
 
Re: Helmsverse League International

Holy lots of discussion Batman!

Let me first say that I love it. It's almost like the old days. I know we are all way busier with our work and families than we were back in the day but it's still fun to do this when we can. Of course we do have to change the spelling of the thread title to HelmAverse League International.

I like the Starfire and Blackfire designs thus far and I'm excited to see them be done together with such similarities. This is good stuff, especially since the Helm boys just noted last weekend that we probably should have Starfire on our radar.

STARFIRE

For HOT HEAD, I don't think we want to "add to your roll" as that is a 20-sided die power wording. Instead we want to add attack dice.

HOT HEAD
When attacking with Starfire's normal attack, you may choose up to 3 friendly figures within 3 clear sight spaces. Add 1 to your attack dice for each chosen figure with at least 1 wound marker on their card.

or, using Incredible Hulk as the template, I kind of like this better:

HOT HEAD
When Starfire attacks using a normal attack, she receives one extra attack die for each friendly figure within 3 clear sight spaces that has at least 1 wound marker on their card, up to a maximum of 3 extra attack dice for Hot Head.
 
Re: Helmsverse League International

BLACKFIRE

I like the direction that both of you are heading with the OM and the Flying triggers for her bonus. My only concern is to not strip some other characters of the uniqueness that defines them. Black Adam adds attack dice for revealed OMs and Hawkgirl gets bonuses against Flyers (well at least on her SA).

Still, I think we can definitely make Blackfire incorporate those two elements. I would leave out the Tamaranian bonus as it only affects one other figure (or against herself if some players do that kind of thing).

JEALOUS RAGE
When Blackfire attacks a figure with the Flying or Stealth Flying special power and at least one revealed Order Marker on their card using a normal attack, she receives two extra attack dice.

Or based on official Brandis Skyhunter:

JEALOUS RAGE
If Blackfire is attacking a figure that has the Flying or Stealth Flying special power and at least one revealed Order Marker on their card using a normal attack, add 2 dice to Blackfire’s attack.

I'm not sure if this fits with your original version but I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion.
 
Last edited:
Love the edits. Changes have been made.

Now @Matt Helm, how do you normally calculate your initial point costs for designs? Do you have a calculator? Is it gut feel? Or some just pick a number & rely on the playtesting to bring it to the correct value?

My gut feelings at the moment would be about 150 for Blackfire & 180 for Starfire.

Also what would assist you guys for playtesting. I know I usually create the card, with or without the picture - depending if i already had it or not, then print out in low quality greyscale. But that could be just me. Let me know & I will make it happen.
 
Printing a basic b&w with no pic sounds good to me. As for points, I keep all the cards in points order, then start by comparing the base stats and work out where it fits, then adjust for how good the powers are. I’ll check the cards later and tell you my guess for points.
 
How I calculate initial point cost is basically a combination of gut and comparison as you guys both suggest.

First, I use the gut feeling utilizing only the original 10 Hasbro cards as a scale. Basically, which of the original cards is closest to the custom.

Then, like Streaky, I look at all of the HelmAverse cards in that cost range and eyeball where the new custom would fit in line.

After some playtesting at around that point, I tweak the points as warranted.

Last, when I settle on the point cost, I once again review the HelmAverse cards at that exact cost and ask myself, "how often would I draft this new card instead of one of the existing cards?" I do this because if the answer is "never", then the card is either overcosted or just too boring and may need to be scrapped.

More recently, I have been also utilizing this calculator offered by Giantslayer as a double check for my initial gut feeling. at the very least, it gives you a minimum for the base stats.

Without going through all of these steps, my initial gut would put Starfire at about 200 and Blackfire at 180. Totally just guesstimates at this time.

As for playtesting, I'm usually fine with a word doc that I print up with the stats color coded. I don't need a card mock up but I'll admit it's always fun to have one.
 
We were able to run Blackfire through a test today. The Starbolt Specisl Attack is deadly. Rolling at least 2 skulls more than half the time means you’re getting 4, 6 or 8 hits often. It immediately seemed a bit out of place and with a 7 range, the boys begged me to lower the attack dice to 3 on the special attack. Even though it was only available once per round, it just seemed to play better at 3 dice (with each skull counting as two).

She got taken out fast by lucky die rolls (she was seen as a threat) so unfortunately we didn’t get a full picture yet. We’ll keep playtesting and get you more feedback.
 
Matt Helm said:
We were able to run Blackfire through a test today. The Starbolt Specisl Attack is deadly. Rolling at least 2 skulls more than half the time means you’re getting 4, 6 or 8 hits often. It immediately seemed a bit out of place and with a 7 range, the boys begged me to lower the attack dice to 3 on the special attack. Even though it was only available once per round, it just seemed to play better at 3 dice (with each skull counting as two).

She got taken out fast by lucky die rolls (she was seen as a threat) so unfortunately we didn’t get a full picture yet. We’ll keep playtesting and get you more feedback.
Click to expand...

:up: That sounds good. Down to 3 for Starbots.
 
Starbolt Special Attack on Blackfire still shows as Attack of 4 instead of 3. And was the superstrength symbol intentional? Seems weird to be on one sister and not the other but we don't really know the character so we are betting that it does fit Blackfire.

Anyway, I'm hoping to get some mini, low point value tests in this weekend. I don't think we will have one of our big battles but that's OK, I want to give the -fire sisters some personal time.
 
Matt Helm said:
Starbolt Special Attack on Blackfire still shows as Attack of 4 instead of 3. And was the superstrength symbol intentional? Seems weird to be on one sister and not the other but we don't really know the character so we are betting that it does fit Blackfire.

Anyway, I'm hoping to get some mini, low point value tests in this weekend. I don't think we will have one of our big battles but that's OK, I want to give the -fire sisters some personal time.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I swear I changed that. & no Super strength wasn't supposed to be on her. I had SS on my original design but I always wavered if it was in fact appropriate & decided to leave it off this design.
 
Enjoyed a little testing last night and the preliminary reports are real good. Blackfire is still dangerous even with the Special attack at 3. It was very cool because now with height, I had to decide did I want to use the Special with 3 dice doubled or did I want to go with a normal attack of 5. Having those kind of choices is very fun to me because it adds to the strategy and the risk taking.

Starfire took some hits from her sister and didn't get much of test drive because Wolverine was in her face. She played great thus far but I really want to open her up on a map where she can fly and she has teammates holding wounds. More to report in the next few days when I can find some time.

Shh, don't tell anyone but we've also played around with Gh... Co... and De... (names hidden to protect the innocent). The first one is rounding out nice after a minor change while the latter two are finished off with just the point values being finalized.

The HelmAverse is getting close to growing yet again.
 
Matt Helm said:
It was very cool because now with height, I had to decide did I want to use the Special with 3 dice doubled or did I want to go with a normal attack of 5. Having those kind of choices is very fun to me because it adds to the strategy and the risk taking.
Click to expand...
Yep that's what I like more of in the game also. It leads to great discussions afterwards when hind-sight is the only sight left.
Matt Helm said:
Shh, don't tell anyone but we've also played around with Gh... Co... and De... (names hidden to protect the innocent). The first one is rounding out nice after a minor change while the latter two are finished off with just the point values being finalized.

The HelmAverse is getting close to growing yet again.
Click to expand...
Excellent. :twisted:
 
Got a little mini testing in with these guys a few times over the last few days. I do have a question on theme but literally just one simple question and nothing that is a deal breaker.

So both figures have the two projectile attack options. The first is the normal attack that has enhancement possibilities and the second is the Starbolts which are only usable once per round but pretty powerful as doubling skulls grows real fast.

When I look up on wiki or comic vine, I see that they have their starbolts as their common attack but can build up their energy for a super projection. My question is, does the Starbolts Special attack represent this build up (hence the once per round)? I think it does because it has the extended range and rolling 2 skulls on average with 3 skulls often enough means you are effectively dealing 4 or 6 skulls regularly. The regular attack is technically the weaker one but can get emotional enhancements.

Anyway, I guess my only confusion was in the name Starbolts which would better fit the commonly used attack and not the Special Attack. But then again HelmAverse powers do like to take the hero defining names and utilize them in powers where we can (i.e. Submariner, Power Man, Eye of Agamotto, Helm of Nabu,etc.).

The bottom line is, the Helm family is absolutely good with the naming of the powers as is and the theme is certainly good enough.

Now mechanically, they both are better than good enough. Playing with the tow of them side by side had me managing OMs to see if I could put them in position to get a good Starbolt SA and still maximize their normal attack bonus powers (later in the round). At least once, based on having height advantage that I wouldn't have later I chose to wait on the Starbolt and go with the normal attack first. In the end, it was fun to make those choices especially since they worked out as I had hoped. I think these two are ready to go with their stats and power set.

As far as points, I'd recommend a drop of 10 points for each of them.
Starfire = 190
Blackfire = 170

If you want them to be more powerful than that than we can talk about beefing the SA back up or some other factor but honest having Starfire on par with a 195 point Storm and 185 point Human Torch just seems very cool to me.

Excelsior!
 
Matt Helm said:
Poke - any interest in finishing these two off?

;)
Click to expand...

Hehe, yes. I have been working on doing things to get me scaling again. I was wanting to give these girls a spin myself(i also planned to do the same for my C3G design). My progress hasn't been the fastest though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top