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Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League)

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FLASH (BARRY ALLEN)

C3G2_Flash-Barry-JL.png


Card PDF

NAME = FLASH
IDENTITY = BARRY ALLEN

UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
SPECIES = METAHUMAN
CLASS = PROTECTOR
PERSONALITY = BOLD

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 12
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 270


SWIFT JUSTICE
During setup, place 1 Justice Marker on this card for each Justice League unit on your team, up to 3. After rolling for initiative, you may remove a Justice Marker from this card to add 8 to your roll.

FASTEST MAN ALIVE
At the start of your turn, do up to X of the following, where X is the number of Justice Markers on this card:
• place Flash on any empty space on the battlefield.
• choose an adjacent object Flash has not yet chosen this round. Inflict or heal 1 wound on it.
• push an adjacent character 1 space with Stealth, or up to 4 spaces with Stealth if it is an ally.
• place an Item within 2 spaces of Flash on an empty space within 2 spaces of Flash.

SUPERSPEED
Flash may move through all figures and does not have to stop his movement when entering water spaces. After Flash's attack phase, he may maneuver up to 2 spaces.

FACTION = JUSTICE LEAGUE
PUBLISHER = DC
KEYWORDS = Science, Speedster
SYMBOLS = STEALTH
WORLDS COLLIDE: As the fastest man alive, the one thing Flash cannot outrun is tragedy!

Resources and Rulings
  • The suggested figure for this unit is a Heroclix figure: Rebirth #003/#047 / The Flash
  • See this card's wiki page for synergies and strategies!
Credits
  • Legacy design: Ronin
  • Card art: Arkham
  • Comic creators: Robert Kanigher and ‎Carmine Infantino
Updates
  • N/A
 
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Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

OK, getting this guy rolling with Green Arrow since he's another likely non-recruiter.

I wasn't sure where to go with his Class if we're ditching Champion. I lean towards Protector as the "hyper fast, gotta save them all" version represented here would have protection at the front of mind. Investigator could be fun, but leans more towards his civilian identity, IMO.

I could see bumping his cost 10-20 points after playing him a bunch. Would have to think about what that would look like for the faction as a whole before doing it, though.

Not too many changes in wording. In Fastest Man Alive I went with inflict or heal language since heal is now a term we can use to say remove wound markers.

Superspeed is trimmed down here after some talk on Discord and the disengage part is obviously split out to the Stealth symbol. That made it a bit tough for him to give people Superspeed when pushing them with Fastest Man Alive, so I went with Stealth instead. I'm open to thoughts on whether that was a good direction or not.

For Superspeed, we thought to make it less quirky with different triggers for each bonus move of 4 spaces, we could just take that restriction out and drop the bonus move to 2 spaces. That should also reduce the kiting on all of them a bit, IMO.

For keywords, I went with Science (as his other version is a Scientist, and it feels appropriate for the character) and Speedster (since folks expressed a desire to bond superspeed/speed force types together without having to reference those abilities).

For symbols, only Stealth seemed to fit the bill.

Not sure if we want to do anything with damage types here. I could maybe see something with the wound he inflicts with Fastest Man Alive being sonic damage to represent how fast he's going?
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

You must have copy and pasted from me some where along the line as World's Collide has the ' that shouldn't be there.

Crime Fighter leaped out at me as an interesting option, but maybe that can be saved for the first Flash card and Protector used here.

I wouldn't do anything with damage types here.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Yeah, not sure where I copied that from. Gonna check all my threads now. :p
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Protector feels good.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Flash and Spidey are both in the same vibe of peppy Crime Fighter do-gooder, I'd go with that unless the card goes into his detective skills. It'd be fun for them to pal around. I'd give Wally Crime Fighter over Barry though, so Protector is good too.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Fun snippets I found while researching that answer:

Barry is also immune to telepathic attacks and control as he can shift his thoughts at a speed faster than normal thought. Through "speed-reading", he can absorb large amounts of information into his short-term memory, which remain in his mind just long enough for him to make use of it. Using this technique, Barry was able to learn enough about building work to rebuild a destroyed apartment building.

Looks like he should thematically have Mental Shield!

I know he applies scientific principles to how he uses his speed all the time, is a forensic chemist, and has the ability to learn about and apply just about any concept (for a limited time), so I guess it depends on what "comics-level" means to you. I was mostly going off of OG Barry being classed as a Scientist for us.

He also made [ame="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:DC_Comics_scientists"]this list[/ame]. :p
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

SWIFT JUSTICE
During setup, place 1 blue Justice Marker on this card for each Justice League card on your team, to a max of 3. After rolling for initiative, you may remove a Justice Marker from this card to add 8 to your roll.

:up:

FASTEST MAN ALIVE
At the start of your turn, do up to X of the following, where X is the number of Justice Markers on this card:
• place Flash on any empty space on the battlefield.
• choose an adjacent destructible object Flash has not yet chosen this round. Inflict or heal 1 wound on it.
• maneuver an adjacent figure 1 space, or up to 4 spaces if it is an ally, during which it gains the Stealth ability.
• place an item within 2 spaces of Flash on an empty space within 2 spaces of Flash.

Hmm. Not too late to tighten up "destructible object" as a term, is it?

Wouldn't mind doing something mild here to curb the mechiness - honestly not like a big issue for me for him to have some synergy there, mostly just want to make sure he's not something that dedicated vehicle people will have to compete with. Like if we ever had JL pilot people (are there characters like that?) I wouldn't want him to put them out of a job or make them work super hard to be the best pilots for their vehicles.

Not sure if it's needed, just figured I'd mention while the hood is up. Also fine w/a point bump.

SUPERSPEED
Flash may move through all figures and does not have to stop his movement when entering water spaces. After an activation with Flash, he may move up to 2 spaces.

Would it be a good idea to express "not being stopped by terrain" more broadly? Or do we want to be strict about water here? Molten lava also stops movement and we could invent new terrain types that do that also.

(Barry probably is not running across lava but across the broad spectrum of speedsters I assume some of em are heat resistant)

Could we put the bonus movement after his attack phase instead of after his activation to keep it 'inside' the activation?

....

Not digging Mental Shield, doesn't feel iconic for him.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Barry's definitely a big science guy. Flash gets mind controlled by Grodd all the time, so I'd avoid Mental Shield.

Going broad with "not stopped by terrain" for Superspeed makes sense.

Surprised JL Flash has felt strong to people, he's felt worthwhile to me but nowhere close to broken, especially after his once-per-round nerf to the DO power. His offensive output is low for his cost so you're paying a lot for support.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Agreed on skipping Mental Shield.

I guess I'm mainly thinking that if Science synergy ends up letting a character make a Teleportation Belt or creating clones or whatever, is that going to feel weird for Flash?

My immediate thought with characters like him, Spidey, or Bruce Banner is that certain designs will feel more at home with the Science-y stuff than others. Like FF Spidey? Definitely a Science Spidey. But that doesn't mean every Spider-Man has to have the tag.

So to rephrase the question, do we feel like "SCIENCE!" is important to Barry within a JL context?
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Barry built the Cosmic Treadmill, which has to count for something. :shrug:

Sounds like Mental Shield is out.

For the cost portion, Flash has incredible utility. Pushing folks around that easily and passively can really help your allies and mess with enemy plans. And of course he's strong inside a mech and good at taking down mechs or hitting enemies with trees, etc. If folks don't think he needs a boost, I'm OK with that, I've just had a fair amount of success with him in competitive environments.

That said, I do feel like the JL need at least one or two pretty strong figures to keep up with the Avengers. :p Also, keeping cost as is makes this thread easier to move forward.

I'm good with the not stopping on terrain and idea for how to time the extra move.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Oh, open to ideas about new wording for destructible object. I don't have any brainstorms, though. :p
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Hmm, thought on the terrain bit: I don't want Superspeed figures to be able to not stop on Sky spaces, since that screws them up a bit. Same with Cosmic spaces.

Not quite sure how to word the extra move without getting messy with figures that give attack phases and what not.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Oh, open to ideas about new wording for destructible object. I don't have any brainstorms, though. :p

We could just tighten it up to 'object' given how rare it is for us to talk about indestructible objects. It'd be nice to have a one-word term in any case, it feels like kind of a clunker where the 'destructible' clarification rarely actually helps us out much.

'Indestructible' objects would be 'obstacles' in 1.0 I guess? Would we want to fold those under 'objects' so we could just reference stuff like that more easily?

Hmm, thought on the terrain bit: I don't want Superspeed figures to be able to not stop on Sky spaces, since that screws them up a bit. Same with Cosmic spaces.

Not quite sure how to word the extra move without getting messy with figures that give attack phases and what not.

Hmm, wasn't thinking about sky, not something I've used much. A little trickier to phrase unless there's something on the terrain level that operates differently (or like an easy distinction in the power that makes it only affect conventional terrain in an intuitive way), though that could be kind of a confusing separation. A thinker.

Maybe just 'Before ending Flash's activation, '?
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Just for context, here are the definitions we're working off of right now in 2.0:

Destructible Object: A destructible object is an object that has a life number and is considered to be a figure for the purpose of abilities and attacks. Most objects have a destructible version that can be used on the battlefield in their place.

Object: An object is considered part of the battlefield and is typically not affected by abilities. It can block clear sight, obstruct figure movement, and prevent figure adjacency. Figures cannot move through objects.

Obstacles aren't a thing in 2.0, just figures, objects, and terrain.

Thinking more on the terrain thing, saying terrain can't stop or slow him at all would go against the intent of figures like Captain Cold who're laying down Slippery Ice specifically to slow Flash. I'm starting to think that sticking to just water in the ability is probably good?

I think "before ending Flash's activation" gives you a cut off to use it, but not really a clear enough starting point? Like basically any point in his activation is before ending his activation, which is a bit muddier than I'd prefer.

I'd probably best to go with the timing that's set up for abilities that trigger when we want this to trigger, which is after his attack phase. It might let him down some out of turn movement, but that's not the worst thing, and I doubt abilities that hand out attack phases out of activation will be that common.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Oh, nice, you're one step ahead of me on objects. I don't think I'd bother specifying 'destructible' in most abilities, with that in place, but I get it if people want to keep 'destructible' for wounding effects. (I'd be fine with ones that don't have an associated Life number just inherently no-selling wounding though)

I didn't suggest not letting terrain slow his movement, that's pretty clearly a different thing. But no worries, I'm fine just leaving the power at water. Molten lava is kinda dumb anyway so I'm fine just pretending it doesn't exist (hot take: the basic game rule for molten lava where it's just a space you can't move onto is better).

Strictly speaking, literally any point in time including right now might be before ending Flash's activation. :p I think people'd get it. I'm also fine sticking with the movement after an attack phase though.

You could combine both for effects that you strictly wanted during activations:

After Flash's attack phase and before ending his activation,

Or maybe a 'during activation' + 'after attack phase' type thing for that. Either way, there's options but I don't think it's a huge deal for a small move if he can occasionally get it off an ability that gives him an attack phase.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

I think the way the rules work the implication is that if something doesn't have a stat for something, that stat can't be affected. So, yeah, I think we could get away with just saying object if we wanted. Non-destructible ones don't have life, so they can't take damage.

Fwiw, we could also specify molten lava is a type of water in the rulebook if we wanted to. Though it might be weird for Atlanteans to be strong in it. :p It certainly sloshes around like water.

For the attack phase part, yeah, I don't think it's a big deal for speedsters to have that movement after any attack phase and the wording is cleaner that way.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

The way Hasbro defines molten lava is very lame like that, it just says "treat it like water" in the VW rulebook but then they have a FAQ that says "obviously not for special powers" but is still kinda vague about what that means. Like the only reason I'm sure it's meant to stop movement is because the Obsidian Guards' card says it doesn't stop them.

So as long as our stance on it makes more sense than that we're good.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

More of an overall rules question, but why *does* molten lava stop movement? And are we sure we even want to retain that effect in 2.0?
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

My understanding on the water tiles in classic is they represent deeper water, such that when you move onto that space you sink down. Waist deep or more water can slow down your movement for sure. The same could be true if you fell into waist deep lava flow, which is also why it was so deadly in Classic. That being said, since we've already made it less deadly in Superheroscape we could also redefine it as being ankle deep lava flow. Thus is does not stop movement and doesn't auto-kill most things. You just might get burnt/melted boots while quickly moving to safer ground.
 
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Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Hmm. Definitely agreed that I'm fine binning the idea of lava stopping movement. Or reworking lava more broadly. We can put a pin in that for when we get to it.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

Fair enough. I'm definitely down for just voiding the movement stopping part. No real purpose to it, IMO, especially if figures are frequently dying as soon as they hit anyway (and few are going in there on purpose as part of their move).
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

voting of finding a way to not change his points. I too never found him broken or anything but I'm also not the most competitive.
 
Re: Flash (Barry Allen) (Justice League) - Design

If it's one of those where only I've been annoyingly competitive with him, I'm happy to just accept that I'm competitively brilliant and keep him as is. :p
 
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