Delta: latest updates and discussion

[Dunedain]

DECREASE THE CHUMPS:

Rechets of Bodgan 45--> 35 : They have still a high chance of never touching the board unless you runaway endlessly with Iskra and pass your turns, and even when they summon, it's only 3x3 nothing incredible, and it's super rare they get one turn more than their free turn.

Deathstalkers 80--> 70 : I cannot comprehend a world where they cost same as templars and cost more than Warforged, unless very specific machups Warforged avec better defense, offense and I'd even argue better mobility due to tactical switch and being single hexed.

Tagawa Samuraïs Archers SA: 60 --> 55: Bad stats and bad power. 3 defense counterstrike is only good vs 2 dice attacks, which in melee basically doesn't exist expect like unboosted blades and spiders. You can add Raelin to make the power better but it's so much investment into anti-melee.

Venocs 45--> 40: They bad, having their cost not decreased is already a variance tax.

Venoc Warlord 120 --> 100: Same, he bad. I don't understand why he's so high costed, Khosumet is like half the price for has much as a significant boost imo. The 9 move, while it's fun "wooooo I have 9 move!! 9!!" is not super significant, 7 move is enough to catch any ranged unit. Sure he has sightly better combat abilities than Khosumet but that's not what you look for for a cheerleader, you want the boost to be good and you want him to be cheap so you can spam more squads that benefits the boost.

Deadeye Dan 55 --> 45 (delta classic) The special attack is only significantly better than like an attack of 3 vs 4+ base defense squads. Not being able to move is so terrible.

55 --> 50 (VC delta) Less bad with Clayton, but still bad.

Minions of Utgar 105-->100, what are their good machups

Skeletons of Annelhintia 95-->90, 4 move 1 range 3 defense is very bad, 3 attack isn't great either, add to that either you have to pay lotta point for a beefy Duke, either you go with a cheap Duchess, and take the risk of seeing her getting sniped and see your guys becoming almost vanillas 4/1/3/3 for the whole game. For them top be a decent army I feel you need to run 4 of them + a cheap duchess, or 3 of them+ a big duke, in a 500 pointer which is possible at 90.

Beakface Sneaks 30-->25/20, cool 5 defense vs ranged, they can get more easily get engaged, and do nothing once engaged, kinda like EOV without the frenzy highroll potential...



BUMP THE BOSSES:

Omegacron 180--> 200/195: Omegacron + full repulsors very very good in delta, very annoying to play against, it has that Q9+rats vibe. You could bump Repulsors instead but as they mega**** without Omegacron I think bumping Omegacron makes more sense.

Exiles 75--> 80/85 Very sturdy vs range (much more than marros) and quite sturdy vs melee cause they just like play safe kite them. Disengage on a ranged squad with such high dps is also crazy. Incredible assassination potential, in some machups like Kurrok they can just go where they please and blast quadruple (or let's say triple if they lose a guy) 4v3 vs Kurrok win the game the end. If you play them right it's basically a 5 range sqaud I never saw black powder negative side being that huge of a deal, and never saw them ran out of markers.



Templars 80 --> 85

Microcorps Agents 90 --> 95

More on the fence for those two, but feel like they still have quite a decent amount of "oh, I win" situations right now and they are extremely played and fit into many builds and formats.

Those were my delta suggestions/demands you may or may not pay attention to them.

Frostclaw paladins could get a bump too I think? Or too format dependant?

 

[Foudzing]

DECREASE THE CHUMPS:

Rechets of Bodgan 45--> 35 : They have still a high chance of never touching the board unless you runaway endlessly with Iskra and pass your turns, and even when they summon, it's only 3x3 nothing incredible, and it's super rare they get one turn more than their free turn.

Deathstalkers 80--> 70 : I cannot comprehend a world where they cost same as templars and cost more than Warforged, unless very specific machups Warforged avec better defense, offense and I'd even argue better mobility due to tactical switch and being single hexed.

Tagawa Samuraïs Archers SA: 60 --> 55: Bad stats and bad power. 3 defense counterstrike is only good vs 2 dice attacks, which in melee basically doesn't exist expect like unboosted blades and spiders. You can add Raelin to make the power better but it's so much investment into anti-melee.

Venocs 45--> 40: They bad, having their cost not decreased is already a variance tax.

Venoc Warlord 120 --> 100: Same, he bad. I don't understand why he's so high costed, Khosumet is like half the price for has much as a significant boost imo. The 9 move, while it's fun "wooooo I have 9 move!! 9!!" is not super significant, 7 move is enough to catch any ranged unit. Sure he has sightly better combat abilities than Khosumet but that's not what you look for for a cheerleader, you want the boost to be good and you want him to be cheap so you can spam more squads that benefits the boost.

Deadeye Dan 55 --> 45 (delta classic) The special attack is only significantly better than like an attack of 3 vs 4+ base defense squads. Not being able to move is so terrible.

55 --> 50 (VC delta) Less bad with Clayton, but still bad.

Minions of Utgar 105-->100, what are their good machups

Skeletons of Annelhintia 95-->90, 4 move 1 range 3 defense is very bad, 3 attack isn't great either, add to that either you have to pay lotta point for a beefy Duke, either you go with a cheap Duchess, and take the risk of seeing her getting sniped and see your guys becoming almost vanillas 4/1/3/3 for the whole game. For them top be a decent army I feel you need to run 4 of them + a cheap duchess, or 3 of them+ a big duke, in a 500 pointer which is possible at 90.

Beakface Sneaks 30-->25/20, cool 5 defense vs ranged, they can get more easily get engaged, and do nothing once engaged, kinda like EOV without the frenzy highroll potential...



BUMP THE BOSSES:

Omegacron 180--> 200/195: Omegacron + full repulsors very very good in delta, very annoying to play against, it has that Q9+rats vibe. You could bump Repulsors instead but as they mega**** without Omegacron I think bumping Omegacron makes more sense.

Exiles 75--> 80/85 Very sturdy vs range (much more than marros) and quite sturdy vs melee cause they just like play safe kite them. Disengage on a ranged squad with such high dps is also crazy. Incredible assassination potential, in some machups like Kurrok they can just go where they please and blast quadruple (or let's say triple if they lose a guy) 4v3 vs Kurrok win the game the end. If you play them right it's basically a 5 range sqaud I never saw black powder negative side being that huge of a deal, and never saw them ran out of markers.



Templars 80 --> 85

Microcorps Agents 90 --> 95

More on the fence for those two, but feel like they still have quite a decent amount of "oh, I win" situations right now and they are extremely played and fit into many builds and formats.

Those were my delta suggestions/demands you may or may not pay attention to them.

Frostclaw paladins could get a bump too I think? Or too format dependant?

Yes Frostclaws at 125 or 130 would not be crazy at all but I'm more sure about Exiles, tbh Exiles might end up around the 100 range.

 

[Grey Waves]

Thought I'd propose some changes myself ahead of the update this Sunday.

Granite Guardians 80 --> 75 points
While the Granite’s defensive capabilities and free development via Gain High Ground are both very solid, 80 points feels a touch expensive considering that they’re still really slow and their offensive output is just *ok*. (It’s rare for the Granites to get more than 1 attack of 5 off per turn, and 3 attacks of 4+ is fine, but nothing to write home about). They also barely have any tournament results to speak of too.

Aubrien Archers 75 --> 70 points
I don’t understand why the Aubriens went up to 75 points last update – their stats besides range are all crap and it wasn’t like they were performing overly well at any tournaments. (At least, not enough to warrant a point increase). They’re still a fundamentally inconsistent unit (read: not good at winning tournaments) and while they do well into 5 move melee units, anything with 6 move or a ranged attack is going to mow them down pretty quickly.

Jotun 210 --> 195 points
Not much to say here besides that the Dreadguls still struggle to find the points to fit Jotun after they’ve maxed out on common squads. The fact that they have multiple other solid (and cheaper) bonding heroes like Guilty and Valguard doesn’t help his case. 195 points makes Jotun 30 points cheaper than classic scape, which feels about right.

Siiv 30 --> 25 points
Marcu and Kira Jax are just better options if you need a 30 point filler unit at the moment. A point cut will allow Siiv to be playable at point totals where those two aren’t.

Heavy Gruts 80 --> 85 points, Grimnak 165 --> 155 points
In my opinion, the traditional Heavies/Grimnak/Nerak build is currently priced just about right in delta. However, if you drop Grimnak for Tornak and add an extra squad of Heavies instead, you get a build that is (imo) even more threatening. Heavies x3, Grimnak, Nerak placed 1st, 3rd and 5th in CCL 4 last year, and the only 2 games the build lost were both mirror matches. (The build wasn’t even that optimal as far as points went – it was 100 under and people ended up running MotH as a filler). Right now, Heavies x4, Tornak, Nerak is only 460 points – for a build that gets 5 attacks per turn and whose squaddies are usually rocking 4-5 defence factoring in bonuses, that is insane. Bumping Heavies up to 85 points a squad will nerf this build a bit, while dropping Grimnak’s price slightly will prevent Grimnak builds from becoming too expensive in turn.

Sir Denrick 75 --> 70 points
Saw this nomination on discord and I agree with it. Finn and Thorgrimm are more useful bonding heroes than Sir Denrick when you factor in their adjacency buffs and Viking Spirits. 70 points is 10 less than Finn and 5 less than Thorgrimm, which feels about right.

Ornak 95 --> 80 points
From Blade Gruts to Heavy Gruts, from Marcu to the Hydra, all of Ornak’s best support pieces have all gone up in delta. You could argue that there are other Utgar heroes that have dropped in price that you could use instead, but that doesn’t change the fact that his 2 bonding squads both cost significantly more in delta (and he was never their best bonding hero even in classic). I’ve also never seen him run in a single tournament the entire time delta has been around.

Gorillitroopers 100 --> 95 points, Zaeus 130 --> 120 points
Currently, it’s impossible to get 4 squads of Gorillitroopers and a decent support hero for under 500 points. Considering their vulnerability to specials and auto-wounds, and how they usually get out-commoned at typical figure limits, a slight drop is justified imo. Also, yes Zaeus’ special is amazing, but 130 points is still too expensive for a figure with only 4 life and 4 defence.

20th Maine Volunteers 55 --> 50 points
Another unit that I’ve never seen played in delta. Their severe lack of flexibility makes them difficult to play well, and even when played well, the reward/benefit you gain is not that great. A slight point decrease might see them actually get some play.

Zettian Infantry 65 --> 60 points, Executioner 616 110 --> 100 points
ZIs are currently the exact same cost in normal pricing as they are in delta, which doesn’t feel right. 3 defence falls fast when they can’t afford to bring Raelin or a few squads of Deathreavers, and they’re not as cheap as they first appear considering you’ll typically be taking Warden 816 plus 1 other soulborg hero with them. I could see them going down to 55 points potentially, but 60 is probably a safe bet for now. Executioner 616 also feels like she could do with a slight point cut; she’s not a bad beatstick by any means but 110 points feels excessive for a bonding hero that only gets 1 attack per turn and doesn’t provide any other buffs to her bonding squad.

Also going to give my quick feedback on the changes @Foudzing proposed.

Spoiler Alert!

Rechets of Bodgan 45 --> 35
Disagree, largely because I think these guys have to pay the variance tax, and they can be hugely disruptive to an opponents’ pod/setup if the opponent gets caught by surprise. 80 points for Rechets + Iskra is fine imo.

Deathstalkers 80 --> 70
Agreed; I was actually going to make this nomination myself. They’re ok as a screen, but all the best range units like Q9, Nilf and the Incendiborgs got a significant point increase in delta.

Tagawa Samurai Archers: 60 --> 55
Disagree. 6 range is still good and if their attack dice are hot OR if the other players’ attack dice are bad, they can be very very punishing to opposing melee.

Venocs 45 --> 40:
Disagree. At 40 points a squad, you can get 7 squads for 280 points, which feels a little too cheap.

Venoc Warlord 120 --> 100
Wholeheartedly agree. Mittens’ cheerleader abilities and endgame potential are decent, but not to the degree where he’s worth 120 points. A drop to 100 sounds fine if Venocs do remain the same price.

Deadeye Dan 55 --> 45 (delta classic), 55 --> 50 (VC delta)
Agreed, but I feel 50 points is better due to the variance tax. Dan isn’t a lawman so he doesn’t get any synergy with Clayton.

Minions of Utgar 105 --> 100
Agreed, but moreso on the basis that I don’t think they should be tied most expensive squad in delta. 4 squads plus Atlaga costing 500 points seems reasonable.

Skeletons of Annellintia 95 --> 90
Neutral. Skeletons aren’t great but I think they’re better than most people give them credit for, and I haven’t seen enough of them in delta to decide one way or the other.

Beakface Sneaks 30 --> 25/20
Disagree. Sneaks aren’t the best in a Bring 1 no other restrictions format, but with all the good ranged squads going up in points they’re an even better counterdraft in delta than they are in standard.

Omegacron 180 --> 200/195
Disagree. I don’t think the Cronroller without snipers is that good. 7 range is nice but you’ll mostly just be getting attacks of 2, sometimes 3 but never more than that.

Exiles 75 --> 80/85
Agreed. Haven’t played them yet but Stealthy 12 is extremely good and if you set up an early-game initiative switch they can absolutely wreck things with back-to-back attacks of 4.

Templars 80 --> 85
Wholeheartedly disagree. I’m not fully convinced that Templars should have gone back to 80 after they were 75 points for a while, so there’s no way that a bump to 85 is justified.

Microcorps Agents 90 --> 95
Neutral. Microcorp are good but they’re also somewhat map dependent and can struggle really hard if the opponent is able to get to height quickly.

 

[ryguy266]

Want to toss two last doofuses in before the deadline:

Brandis 75 --> 65
Gurei-Oni 75 --> 70

Just because they've already had "big" drops doesn't mean they shouldn't go further. Brandis, especially...one attack of 3 from average range is pathetic. Murphy can hit 6 more figures with a special, remove defense, or shoot safely from two further range and they cost the same? Even Sullivan is better at 65. And Gurei is still a total bust at 75. There's no way you'd ever take him over anything else in that range. Mika and Moriko fill the same role, but better. At least at 70 he competes with Zetacron but fulfills a different purpose.

 

[dok]

The August update to Delta is upon us, and it's the largest update since we revived the Delta project three years ago. 84 cards have updated prices.

Good stuff is still good

Spoiler Alert!

Quahon 245->260
10th Regiment of Foot 100->110
4th Massachusetts Line 105->115
Me-Burq-Sa 75->80
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider 65->70

Quahon is still pretty metagame-dominant in the VC Delta meta, as are the WTF squads. MBS and Nerak are pretty much the best bonding heroes for anything that can bond with them.

Faction Adjustments

Spoiler Alert!

Spartacus 195->210
Capuan Gladiators 70->65
Achillean Gladiatrix 35->30
Priscus 70->60

Arkmer 50->45
Chardris 80->75
Jorhdawn 100->90
Emirroon 65->50

Nicholas Esenwein 130->140
Bloodburst Thrall 30->25
Darkprowl Thrall 25->20
Deathstrike Thrall 25->20
Preyblood Thrall 20->15

Master Win Chiu Woo 110->100 (classic only)
Shaolin Monks 65->60 (classic only)

Beakface Rogue 25->20
Beakface Sneaks 30->25
Clawfoot Interceptor 45->40

I feel like we've gone back and forth with the Capuan pricing more than anything else in Delta's history; we'll see if this sticks.
The others are just factions that felt a bit below the curve, although Nicky becomes much better with cheap thralls.

Age of Adjustments

Spoiler Alert!

Exiles of the Sundered Sea 75->80
Shiori (AoA) 110->90 (classic only)
Loviatäk the Kyrie Warrior 80->75
Knight Irene 110->100
Raakchott, Steward of Death 100->90
Misaerx the Kyrie Warrior 50->35
Xenithrax the Vineweaver 200->180
Bok-Bur-Na 125->100
Admiral EJ-1M 170->140

A lot of these may bounce back a bit as other AoA synergy pieces arrive (particularly Dreadnauts), but we price for what we can see.

Bad Marvel! Bad! Bad!

Spoiler Alert!

Doctor Doom 210->195
Red Skull 175->160
Abomination 320->300
Incredible Hulk 370->350

Oops files

Spoiler Alert!

Buccaneers of Tortuga 75->70
Sir Gilbert 165->160
Skull Demon 70->65
Zombies of Morindan 65->60
Talingul 120->100

All these figures except Gilbert return to their original prices. Gilbert just gets a tiny discount as it appears 165 was a bit too much.

Common Discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

20th Maine Volunteers 55->50
Acolytes of Vorganund 45->40
Deathstalkers 80->75
Einar Imperium 105->100
Gorillitroopers 100->95
Granite Guardians 80->75
Grok Riders 70->65
M-43 Resistance Fighters 60->55
Marro Gnids 45->40
Minions of Utgar 105->100
Quasatch Hunters 80->75
Sentinels of Jandar 100->95
Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep 75->70
Tagawa Samurai Archers 60->55
Varkaanan Blade Dancers 70->65
Wolves of Badru 70->65
Zettian Infantry 65->60
Deepwyrm Drow 60->50
Skeletons of Annellintia 95->85

Unique/Uncommon discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

Acolarh 85->80
Augamo 145->140
Brandis Skyhunter 75->70
Bugbear Basher 65->60
Deathwalker 8000 115->110
Deltacron 85->80
Executioner 616 110->105
James Murphy 75->70
Kha 70->65
Suskra 70->65
Wo-Sa-Ga 105->100
Zombie Hulk 50->45
Arashara Goshiri 150->140
Deathwalker 9000 120->110
Gurei-Oni 80->70 (75->65 classic)
Jotun 210->200 (190->180 classic)
Mika Connour 75->65
Prince al'Kahora 65->55
Rendar Fy 85->75
Venoc Warlord 120->110
Werewolf Lord 120->110
Cxurg'gyath 85->70
Ataraxis the Starlich 130->110
Brontos 160->140

The builder should be updated in the next couple days. We hope you enjoy the new prices, have fun trying to find the new meta.

 

[Scapemage]

I'm just being introduced to Delta through finding a resurging New England group. This is awesome! Thanks for the update details and work everyone.

 

[dok]

The next Delta update will be on Monday, November 25th.

 

[The_X_Marker]

At least at 70 he competes with Zetacron but fulfills a different purpose.

I agree with this. The problem is going to become that bad things become filler that still doesn't get played while good things get priced out.

Delta is almost a beast that requires increasing the point size of the game and setting some kind of minimum and maximum point value for everything. I think at this point, I wouldnt want to see anything go up or down more than 30% of their original cost and it looks like the crew has been pretty good with keeping within that.

 

[ryguy266]

I agree with this. The problem is going to become that bad things become filler that still doesn't get played while good things get priced out.

Delta is almost a beast that requires increasing the point size of the game and setting some kind of minimum and maximum point value for everything. I think at this point, I wouldnt want to see anything go up or down more than 30% of their original cost and it looks like the crew has been pretty good with keeping within that.

That's an interesting point on the spirit of Delta. Every time bad stuff goes down, it gets compared to the stuff around it. Gurei-Oni could go down to 30 points in Delta and I would point and say hey, Marcu is still better than this guy, he should go lower. That's obviously hyperbole, but I think that lower/upper limit matters more with squads (re: Templar and Drow completely defining the current Delta meta after dropping around 30% of their original point value). Meanwhile, I played against Gurei-Oni last weekend and he was still pretty useless at 65--but at least he was there. Without the recent adjustment, he wouldn't have been.

 

[caps]

That's an interesting point on the spirit of Delta. Every time bad stuff goes down, it gets compared to the stuff around it. Gurei-Oni could go down to 30 points in Delta and I would point and say hey, Marcu is still better than this guy, he should go lower. That's obviously hyperbole, but I think that lower/upper limit matters more with squads (re: Templar and Drow completely defining the current Delta meta after dropping around 30% of their original point value). Meanwhile, I played against Gurei-Oni last weekend and he was still pretty useless at 65--but at least he was there. Without the recent adjustment, he wouldn't have been.

I don't think Drow define the current Delta meta... they're still just a 3-figure squad with 3 attacks of 3 a turn.

 

[ryguy266]

I don't think Drow define the current Delta meta... they're still just a 3-figure squad with 3 attacks of 3 a turn.

They're banned from the entirety of ScapeCon East. That's the definition of meta-defining.

Snark aside, a 3-figure squad with 3 attacks of 3 a turn, an effective 4.5 defense against typical attack values, and a strong hero-killing ability for 50 points when most of their bad matchups got more expensive means you either need to consider them or consider an army that will beat them for most given formats. There are other "en masse" armies that can beat them (they didn't do amazing in OHS S59...anything 18 figures or less and they're extremely potent.

 

[caps]

They're banned from the entirety of ScapeCon East. That's the definition of meta-defining.

Snark aside, a 3-figure squad with 3 attacks of 3 a turn, an effective 4.5 defense against typical attack values, and a strong hero-killing ability for 50 points when most of their bad matchups got more expensive means you either need to consider them or consider an army that will beat them for most given formats. There are other "en masse" armies that can beat them (they didn't do amazing in OHS S59...anything 18 figures or less and they're extremely potent.

I personally think that was an overreaction on the part of the SCE organizers. Although some added context in favor of that decision is the high number of Dungeon maps in their pool.

 

[Dysole]

This is the stated reason.

~Dysole, expecting this screenshot might disappear after a period of time because of Discord's way of doing images

 

[dok]

The November Delta update is here!

Smoothing out the VC/Classic divide

Spoiler Alert!

Kantono Daishi 120->190

Kumiko 75->65 (Delta VC only; aligns with Delta classic)
Moriko 90->75 (Delta VC only; aligns with Delta classic)
Ninjas of the Northern Wind 100->70 (Delta VC only; aligns with Delta classic)
Shiori (SotM) 50->45 (Delta VC only; aligns with Delta classic)

Fyorlag Spiders 40->50 (Delta Classic only; aligns with Delta VC)
Wyvern 90->80 (Delta Classic only; aligns with Delta VC)

Major X17 80->75 (Delta VC only; aligns with Delta Classic)

While we’re not ready to completely abandon the system of having two sets of points depending on whether VC units are involved, we took a critical look at which of these adjustments were really needed. In the case of the ninja faction, we decided it made more sense to put the points for the ninja army on Kantono. For the spiders, we decided that 50 point spiders were fine, actually, and we could just make the Wyvern cheaper. Hoplitrons just aren’t enough of a reason to have two different prices for X17.

The oops files

Spoiler Alert!

Microcorp Agents 90->100
Akumaken 95->100
Deepwyrm Drow 50->55
Marro Warriors 110->105
Swog Rider 15->20
Templar Cavalry 80->85
Death Chasers of Thesk 65->60
Ogre Pulverizer 105->95

Microcorp, Templar, Drow, and Swogs were all just a bit too spammable at those price points. It turns out the original design team had the Microcorp right all along. Akumaken gets a bit of a nudge back up and the Ogre Pulverizer goes from 5 above his standard price to 5 below. Death Chasers nudge a bit back towards their original price, in part because their two best heroes keep getting bumped. Marro Warriors are amazing, but 110 seemed to be a touch too steep for them.

Good things are still good

Spoiler Alert!

Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider 70->80
Krav Maga Agents 120->125
Me-Burq-Sa 80->85
Microcorp Troopers 90->95
Mogrimm Forgehammer 130->135
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RoTV) 135->140

Hero discount bin

Spoiler Alert!

Cormin the Dark 50->45
Frost Giant of Morh 130->125
Kita the Springrunner 30->25
Onshu the Welkineye 50->45
Racheim 140->135
Sir Dupuis 85->80
Sir Orrick 45->40
Charos 210->200
Cxurg'gyath 70->60
Ewashia, Master of Tides 115->105
Ornak 95->85
Retiarius 65->55
Sir Denrick 75->65
Valguard 95->85
Wo-Sa-Ga 100->85
Shiori (AoA) 110->90

Expect .org and the first post spreadsheets to be updated within the next few days.

 

[dok]

Due to a desire to work around the logistics of various conventions, the next couple updates are being moved up slightly. The next update is planned for January 27th, with the update after that planned for April 28th. The one after that will probably come after Gencon.