Sentinels of Jandar should be lower. A squad of 3 attack of 3 with no range. Compare Deathstalkers and Minions of Utgar, and maybe Monks. Minions have the ability to attack much higher with bonuses. All (except Monks) have high defense, but Sentinels must roll shields in order for that high defense to work, and it's only a one third chance to roll a shield. I ran Minions, Sentinels, Protectors, and Wolves of Badru in the Delta 4 x 4 or whatever it was called. I got slaughtered with the Sentinels as they just weren't able to attack.
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Delta: latest updates and discussion
- Thread starter dok
- Start date
Being on the other side in this matchup for 4x350 Delta, I agree that 10 points isn't enough of a cut for them. I only lost 3 Greenscales in that game (3x GSW, Moltenclaw v. 3x Sentinels, Black Wyrmling). While Healing Waters was decent for me, the congested middle is ideal to fly over and I just stayed by the center 4-hex tree. I would compare Sentinels as well to Quasatch Hunters which are currently at 80.
I also played Sentinels in another (non-Delta) game and they did nothing.
The September Delta update is here.
The oops... file?
Less corrective actions this time around. There's actually one other card that rebounded back in the direction of its original cost, but it was part of a factional tweak, so let's get to that:
Faction Redistribution
It seems that we overshot slightly on the brigands, to the point that the best option was to ignore the rogue heroes and just spam brigands. So we pushed them back up 5 but lowered the cost of some of their bonding options.
Bumps
Yeah, 260 for a classic 'scape figure. Wild times we live in.
MBS is still a massive value engine in his bonding builds even at 75, and if Scapecon demonstrated anything it was that Mimring and Marrden Hounds are good.
Common Discount Bin
Some 5 point discounts for figures that haven't had a ton of success in Delta.
Uniques Discount Bin
Unlike with the commons, some of these discounts are much steeper cuts, including 20 point drops for Ashi-Dhulu, Mok, and Cxurg'gyath. I'm excited to see what people do with these discounted figures!
.org updates should be live soon and I'll update the spreadsheet links in the OP in the next couple days.
The oops... file?
Spoiler Alert!
Faction Redistribution
Spoiler Alert!
Bumps
Spoiler Alert!
MBS is still a massive value engine in his bonding builds even at 75, and if Scapecon demonstrated anything it was that Mimring and Marrden Hounds are good.
Common Discount Bin
Spoiler Alert!
Uniques Discount Bin
Spoiler Alert!
.org updates should be live soon and I'll update the spreadsheet links in the OP in the next couple days.
Ashi-Dhulu! Woot!
I'm curious about people's thought on price drops for relatively recently released figures (Ranjit down to 90, Ataraxis to 150)
*innocent whistling*
I supported Ranjit and actually nudged them about Ataraxis. Ranjit just is so susceptible to plans going awry that he really needs the drop. Ataraxis I could see needing a bump back but as is, a lot of her better companion units are either still really expensive or got a bump in points.
~Dysole, informationally
I supported Ranjit and actually nudged them about Ataraxis. Ranjit just is so susceptible to plans going awry that he really needs the drop. Ataraxis I could see needing a bump back but as is, a lot of her better companion units are either still really expensive or got a bump in points.
~Dysole, informationally
I think Ranjit dropping to 90 might be too low but as someone who enjoys the unorthodox armies you can build around him I'm not unhappy about it. I've been playing Ranjit ton recently with both Lawmen & unique squads and had a ton of success. Ataraxis going down to 150 feels about right
I think the Ataraxis drop is right too. Marcu is basically an auto-include in her armies. Terrifying and a cheap hero for the Nanobot Virus. Her 10 point drop from keeps the duo at the same cost as in non-delta.
Regarding Ranjit:
Caveat: I love Ranjit and would love to see him actually be viable.
1) Ranjit is already hurt by the best Ranjit-things going up (significantly) in Delta. I'm thinking about, among others: Krav, Rats, Raelin. Guilty going up in VC-Delta is actually kinda relevant too, though less relevant if you can't fit Raelin because he's a Lion-of-Punjab-Risk.
2) Being forced to telegraph your OMs is a massive hinderance. Ranjit forces this to the extreme. And, to cap it off, if you succeed in burning the OM, the bonus is lost for the round. That's probably the biggest downside; if it was like Steamroller where the Gladiators kept the bonus for the round, he would be way stronger, because he has access to a lot more cheap unique heroes.
3) Ranjit has only been played two times in delta tournaments tracked by .org. Note: this does NOT include OHS, where Ranjit has seen way more use. So it's not a perfect measure. But I do think it means many people have actively passed on him often enough to merit the drop.
4) For armies that are more "unorthodox", as gbizzy put it, I'm 100% fine with risking over-correcting a bit too much to provide the opportunity for someone to develop a strong way to play the build and show how it can be done successfully (as long as the army isn't cancerous to the meta; Deadeye Dan rolling his d20 is different). I'd rather put an unorthodox figure at 5-10 points under where they "should" cost (not that it's what I think we're doing here) if it encourages people to actually find out what the optimal builds are, as that both enhances the games' strategy and gives better data for future Delta releases. Again, not necessarily applying here, but a general metric I think is useful.
So I guess the summary is: I think 90 points is a good spot for Ranjit, but if someone proves that wrong and shows meaningful success with him, that's also great.
Caveat: I love Ranjit and would love to see him actually be viable.
1) Ranjit is already hurt by the best Ranjit-things going up (significantly) in Delta. I'm thinking about, among others: Krav, Rats, Raelin. Guilty going up in VC-Delta is actually kinda relevant too, though less relevant if you can't fit Raelin because he's a Lion-of-Punjab-Risk.
2) Being forced to telegraph your OMs is a massive hinderance. Ranjit forces this to the extreme. And, to cap it off, if you succeed in burning the OM, the bonus is lost for the round. That's probably the biggest downside; if it was like Steamroller where the Gladiators kept the bonus for the round, he would be way stronger, because he has access to a lot more cheap unique heroes.
3) Ranjit has only been played two times in delta tournaments tracked by .org. Note: this does NOT include OHS, where Ranjit has seen way more use. So it's not a perfect measure. But I do think it means many people have actively passed on him often enough to merit the drop.
4) For armies that are more "unorthodox", as gbizzy put it, I'm 100% fine with risking over-correcting a bit too much to provide the opportunity for someone to develop a strong way to play the build and show how it can be done successfully (as long as the army isn't cancerous to the meta; Deadeye Dan rolling his d20 is different). I'd rather put an unorthodox figure at 5-10 points under where they "should" cost (not that it's what I think we're doing here) if it encourages people to actually find out what the optimal builds are, as that both enhances the games' strategy and gives better data for future Delta releases. Again, not necessarily applying here, but a general metric I think is useful.
So I guess the summary is: I think 90 points is a good spot for Ranjit, but if someone proves that wrong and shows meaningful success with him, that's also great.
The way I describe Ranjit is that he essentially forces you to build a "toolbox" build. By itself, that's already a mild disadvantage (consistent armies tend to do better) but it gives you the advantage of versatility. But then, if you want to actually take advantage of Ranjit's power, you have to abandon that versatility because your OMs are in a straightjacket. Combine that with the inherent fragility and it's a really tough combo.
But as I said, I'm excited to see people make a run with him at this lower price.
But as I said, I'm excited to see people make a run with him at this lower price.
Thanks all for the feedback! Certainly makes sense that Ranjit needs to be cheaper to offset the Delta cost of figures he works well with.
I suppose it makes sense that if he is a balanced figure, the same army would cost similarly in Delta and non-Delta formats. And that can only be achieved with a higher released point value and significant Delta discount, as opposed to releasing him at 90 points and then giving non-Delta armies with him a significant benefit.
I suppose it makes sense that if he is a balanced figure, the same army would cost similarly in Delta and non-Delta formats. And that can only be achieved with a higher released point value and significant Delta discount, as opposed to releasing him at 90 points and then giving non-Delta armies with him a significant benefit.
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Grey Waves
Active member
Does Mimring really deserve to be 170 points when his 2 most essential support pieces, Arrow Gruts and Raelin, have also both increased in price as well? People keep saying to me Scapecon 3 proves Mimring is worth that much, but he didn't actually do that well in any of the delta events there? I don't doubt that Mimring does provide 170 points worth of value to the classic AG/Raelin build, but when Arrow Gruts typically cost 20-30 points more (because you'll usually be running 4-6 squads of them) and Raelin has gone up a whopping 55 points, I can't help but feel that 170 points for Mimring is just too expensive.
Hello, I wanted to post a match recap in a recent tournament I played in. I was running
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider
My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak
The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"
Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.
I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider
My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak
The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"
Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.
I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.
Hey.
Couple of things/thoughts.
1) 650 is already outside the bounds of what Delta's shooting for (generally 400 - 600), so just a note that sometimes things can get wonky at that total in ways that we don't necessarily want to fix because of consequences for the 400 - 600 point range.
2) Mok really is more than 155 effective points, because of the need for dwarves. Even just 1 squad of Axe ups that cost to 240 points, and he then needs them to take turns in-game to get on him. I think the 155 point total is a bit deceptive because of that. To some degree, killing Mok's support is part of killing Mok, like killing TKN's support (Grubs) is part of killing him, so I think it's important to somewhat view those points as part of Mok's points whenever considering his cost in delta.
3) I don't think WoB are a particularly good counter to Mok anyways, because they can't pull off their SA into him (or Q10, for that matter). Although Werewolf Lord is obviously a much better counter because of being able to take turns.
I probably think Mok is still fine at the current 155, thought I could be persuaded otherwise, but it probably requires more results, and from a sub-600 point event.
I appreciate the reply. I did not know delta was made for 400-600 point games. That is good to know
If you look at similar figures for example Jotun, they have similar stats and Jotun is still 55 points more.
I do understand Jotun has a squad bonding option. In my opinion, even though Mok does not have the "bonding" per se, he does have more versatility in how he plays the game. He is a hero and squad killer who is not as situational as most other figures. He has the potential to have a 7+ attack and a 3 attack on the same figure and then another potential 3 attack on a figure he is not engaged with. Because of this versatility, he was able to kill 2 full-life werewolf lords in one round. That's 240 points in one round not including some wolves of badru he killed as well. For only half of his lives
I feel like points need to be adjusted for an army not having any ranged units to shoot the dwarves off of his shoulders, I understand its hard to adjust for every scenario but for a unit like Mok, I feel it is necessary due to his versatility.
Ill also add, having the dwarves in an army with Mok aside, what other stand-alone hero has stats even close to moks?
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Any idea when the OP will be updated with the latest costs?
ryguy266
Active member
I think it's time to talk about Raelin again. As a wise man once said:
Raelin has now appeared in 14/14 VCheese finalists' armies for OHS and OST events and Scapecon events. She's also appeared in a whopping 24/28 semi-finalists armies (source: Foudzing). Now, none of these events use Delta pricing, but I think that's a very strong statistic to demonstrate her status as the strongest unit in the game, with "strongest" here meaning her ability to most improve your winning chances against any army without her out of any unit that exists.
I also just finished as an OHS season finalist on the back of Raelin in a Delta event. This was an event with a point total designed to make it as painful as possible to take any 135 point unit, especially for Jandar, and yet she was still in 2 playoff armies, the other of which got knocked out only by my own Raelin army. And the rest of the armies were mostly just Romans, who were perfect and obvious for the format, and didn't benefit from Raelin. So still, in a Delta format where the point total was designed to limit her usefulness, she still created opportunities for strong contenders in the face of Roman domination.
All of the Delta team know all this, but it might be helpful seeing it laid out. I'm not saying she deserves to go up to 150 points...yet. I think 150 or even 160 is still not overpriced, considering the increased cost of most things that can challenge her in Delta. But I think a 5 point increase is a good start.
Raelin has now appeared in 14/14 VCheese finalists' armies for OHS and OST events and Scapecon events. She's also appeared in a whopping 24/28 semi-finalists armies (source: Foudzing). Now, none of these events use Delta pricing, but I think that's a very strong statistic to demonstrate her status as the strongest unit in the game, with "strongest" here meaning her ability to most improve your winning chances against any army without her out of any unit that exists.
I also just finished as an OHS season finalist on the back of Raelin in a Delta event. This was an event with a point total designed to make it as painful as possible to take any 135 point unit, especially for Jandar, and yet she was still in 2 playoff armies, the other of which got knocked out only by my own Raelin army. And the rest of the armies were mostly just Romans, who were perfect and obvious for the format, and didn't benefit from Raelin. So still, in a Delta format where the point total was designed to limit her usefulness, she still created opportunities for strong contenders in the face of Roman domination.
All of the Delta team know all this, but it might be helpful seeing it laid out. I'm not saying she deserves to go up to 150 points...yet. I think 150 or even 160 is still not overpriced, considering the increased cost of most things that can challenge her in Delta. But I think a 5 point increase is a good start.
I still like 135 for Raelin.
I've definitely passed on her in some Delta armies at 135, and included her in others, which is a nice combo. At this point, I think it's to where she's a good include for the armies that really need her (i.e. your Harq army; Harq with 1 defense is so bad...) and overpriced for those that don't need her (mostly they'd just get more of themselves for 135 points).
I don't mind Raelin being an auto-include with super-low defense things like Harq though; they're probably unplayable without her. I don't love the idea of bumping Raelin, then needing to drop units like Harq later.
But, more importantly, when I'm building armies I don't tend to think she's a figure I should work to find a way to include at 135, which is great. That's my biggest metric for evaluating cheerleader units in delta.
My thoughts at this point, anyways.
I've definitely passed on her in some Delta armies at 135, and included her in others, which is a nice combo. At this point, I think it's to where she's a good include for the armies that really need her (i.e. your Harq army; Harq with 1 defense is so bad...) and overpriced for those that don't need her (mostly they'd just get more of themselves for 135 points).
I don't mind Raelin being an auto-include with super-low defense things like Harq though; they're probably unplayable without her. I don't love the idea of bumping Raelin, then needing to drop units like Harq later.
But, more importantly, when I'm building armies I don't tend to think she's a figure I should work to find a way to include at 135, which is great. That's my biggest metric for evaluating cheerleader units in delta.
My thoughts at this point, anyways.
Imo Raelin is one of the figure that is hurt the most by point increase for example a 350pts delta game, Raelin is like half of your army, it's a big sacrifice.
I agree with Chris I think Raelin is fine at 135, she only sees plays with very specific units like Ashigarus Harqebus, imo your performance s more due to Harquebus being a superb delta unit than Raelin bering a superb delta unit (even if both works together).
Ashigarus are 65 in delta, compared to the whopping 100pts of the 10th it's free real estate imo. I don't know why you would even pick 10th, like 3x10th is 300pts for the same cost you can go 3xHarqs+Rae sotm that's better imo cause Raelin also benefit the other stuff in your army, and if you have 30 points to spare you can upgrade the Raelin and that's not even close.
Imo Harqs should see a +5, yeah they are hurt by Raelin pts increase but most of their counters (if not all of them) are also very hurt by delta, just my opinion.
I agree with Chris I think Raelin is fine at 135, she only sees plays with very specific units like Ashigarus Harqebus, imo your performance s more due to Harquebus being a superb delta unit than Raelin bering a superb delta unit (even if both works together).
Ashigarus are 65 in delta, compared to the whopping 100pts of the 10th it's free real estate imo. I don't know why you would even pick 10th, like 3x10th is 300pts for the same cost you can go 3xHarqs+Rae sotm that's better imo cause Raelin also benefit the other stuff in your army, and if you have 30 points to spare you can upgrade the Raelin and that's not even close.
Imo Harqs should see a +5, yeah they are hurt by Raelin pts increase but most of their counters (if not all of them) are also very hurt by delta, just my opinion.