What's new
  • Welcome to the Heroscapers 2.0 site! We've still got some dust to clear and adjustments to make, including launching a new front page, but we hope you enjoy the improvements to the site. Please post your feedback and any issues you encounter in this thread.

Delta: latest updates and discussion

Thanks all for the feedback! Certainly makes sense that Ranjit needs to be cheaper to offset the Delta cost of figures he works well with.

I suppose it makes sense that if he is a balanced figure, the same army would cost similarly in Delta and non-Delta formats. And that can only be achieved with a higher released point value and significant Delta discount, as opposed to releasing him at 90 points and then giving non-Delta armies with him a significant benefit.
 
Last edited:
Does Mimring really deserve to be 170 points when his 2 most essential support pieces, Arrow Gruts and Raelin, have also both increased in price as well? People keep saying to me Scapecon 3 proves Mimring is worth that much, but he didn't actually do that well in any of the delta events there? I don't doubt that Mimring does provide 170 points worth of value to the classic AG/Raelin build, but when Arrow Gruts typically cost 20-30 points more (because you'll usually be running 4-6 squads of them) and Raelin has gone up a whopping 55 points, I can't help but feel that 170 points for Mimring is just too expensive.
 
Hello, I wanted to post a match recap in a recent tournament I played in. I was running
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider

My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak

The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"

Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.

I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.
 
Rybotts11 said:
Hello, I wanted to post a match recap in a recent tournament I played in. I was running
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider

My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak

The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"

Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.

I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.
Click to expand...

Hey.

Couple of things/thoughts.

1) 650 is already outside the bounds of what Delta's shooting for (generally 400 - 600), so just a note that sometimes things can get wonky at that total in ways that we don't necessarily want to fix because of consequences for the 400 - 600 point range.

2) Mok really is more than 155 effective points, because of the need for dwarves. Even just 1 squad of Axe ups that cost to 240 points, and he then needs them to take turns in-game to get on him. I think the 155 point total is a bit deceptive because of that. To some degree, killing Mok's support is part of killing Mok, like killing TKN's support (Grubs) is part of killing him, so I think it's important to somewhat view those points as part of Mok's points whenever considering his cost in delta.

3) I don't think WoB are a particularly good counter to Mok anyways, because they can't pull off their SA into him (or Q10, for that matter). Although Werewolf Lord is obviously a much better counter because of being able to take turns.

I probably think Mok is still fine at the current 155, thought I could be persuaded otherwise, but it probably requires more results, and from a sub-600 point event.
 
Chris Perkins said:
Rybotts11 said:
Hello, I wanted to post a match recap in a recent tournament I played in. I was running
4x wolves of badru
3x Werewolf Lord
1x sahuagin raider

My opponent ran
Mok
3x Axgrinders
Major Q10
Darrak

The map we played on was called "Rocky Mounds"

Long story short, I played a very good game but still almost lost. I had 3x werewolf lords (only one of them had taken wounds, the wounded one still had 4 lives left) 3 + squads of badru, my sahuagin raider vs Mok (who had taken 2 wounds), and Darrak. I ended up winning this game only having 2 wolves left on the board and I got lucky he blanked on defense with Mok. I should have won this game easily based on how the early game went. I even got to use Mok due to moon frenzy and was able to kill Darrak with him. Mok is a very powerful unit and for only 155 points in delta, it seemed to be very overpowered at that price point.

I will admit I had some bad offensive rolls while trying to kill Mok but to have him work through 3 Werewolf lords and like 10 wolves of badru, after defeating most of his support was frustrating.
Click to expand...

Hey.

Couple of things/thoughts.

1) 650 is already outside the bounds of what Delta's shooting for (generally 400 - 600), so just a note that sometimes things can get wonky at that total in ways that we don't necessarily want to fix because of consequences for the 400 - 600 point range.

2) Mok really is more than 155 effective points, because of the need for dwarves. Even just 1 squad of Axe ups that cost to 240 points, and he then needs them to take turns in-game to get on him. I think the 155 point total is a bit deceptive because of that. To some degree, killing Mok's support is part of killing Mok, like killing TKN's support (Grubs) is part of killing him, so I think it's important to somewhat view those points as part of Mok's points whenever considering his cost in delta.

3) I don't think WoB are a particularly good counter to Mok anyways, because they can't pull off their SA into him (or Q10, for that matter). Although Werewolf Lord is obviously a much better counter because of being able to take turns.

I probably think Mok is still fine at the current 155, thought I could be persuaded otherwise, but it probably requires more results, and from a sub-600 point event.
Click to expand...



I appreciate the reply. I did not know delta was made for 400-600 point games. That is good to know

If you look at similar figures for example Jotun, they have similar stats and Jotun is still 55 points more.

I do understand Jotun has a squad bonding option. In my opinion, even though Mok does not have the "bonding" per se, he does have more versatility in how he plays the game. He is a hero and squad killer who is not as situational as most other figures. He has the potential to have a 7+ attack and a 3 attack on the same figure and then another potential 3 attack on a figure he is not engaged with. Because of this versatility, he was able to kill 2 full-life werewolf lords in one round. That's 240 points in one round not including some wolves of badru he killed as well. For only half of his lives

I feel like points need to be adjusted for an army not having any ranged units to shoot the dwarves off of his shoulders, I understand its hard to adjust for every scenario but for a unit like Mok, I feel it is necessary due to his versatility.

Ill also add, having the dwarves in an army with Mok aside, what other stand-alone hero has stats even close to moks?
 
Last edited:
Note that in non-VC Delta, where Jotun has no bonding, he is only 190 points, which is only 35 points more than Mok.
 
I think it's time to talk about Raelin again. As a wise man once said:

dok said:
Raelin could probably go to 150 and she would still see play. She will see play even when overpriced because she is often the most logical add due to universal synergy. The goal is not to make her overpriced, but 135 is not overpriced.
Click to expand...

Raelin has now appeared in 14/14 VCheese finalists' armies for OHS and OST events and Scapecon events. She's also appeared in a whopping 24/28 semi-finalists armies (source: Foudzing). Now, none of these events use Delta pricing, but I think that's a very strong statistic to demonstrate her status as the strongest unit in the game, with "strongest" here meaning her ability to most improve your winning chances against any army without her out of any unit that exists.

I also just finished as an OHS season finalist on the back of Raelin in a Delta event. This was an event with a point total designed to make it as painful as possible to take any 135 point unit, especially for Jandar, and yet she was still in 2 playoff armies, the other of which got knocked out only by my own Raelin army. And the rest of the armies were mostly just Romans, who were perfect and obvious for the format, and didn't benefit from Raelin. So still, in a Delta format where the point total was designed to limit her usefulness, she still created opportunities for strong contenders in the face of Roman domination.

All of the Delta team know all this, but it might be helpful seeing it laid out. I'm not saying she deserves to go up to 150 points...yet. I think 150 or even 160 is still not overpriced, considering the increased cost of most things that can challenge her in Delta. But I think a 5 point increase is a good start.
 
I still like 135 for Raelin.

I've definitely passed on her in some Delta armies at 135, and included her in others, which is a nice combo. At this point, I think it's to where she's a good include for the armies that really need her (i.e. your Harq army; Harq with 1 defense is so bad...) and overpriced for those that don't need her (mostly they'd just get more of themselves for 135 points).

I don't mind Raelin being an auto-include with super-low defense things like Harq though; they're probably unplayable without her. I don't love the idea of bumping Raelin, then needing to drop units like Harq later.

But, more importantly, when I'm building armies I don't tend to think she's a figure I should work to find a way to include at 135, which is great. That's my biggest metric for evaluating cheerleader units in delta.

My thoughts at this point, anyways.
 
Imo Raelin is one of the figure that is hurt the most by point increase for example a 350pts delta game, Raelin is like half of your army, it's a big sacrifice.
I agree with Chris I think Raelin is fine at 135, she only sees plays with very specific units like Ashigarus Harqebus, imo your performance s more due to Harquebus being a superb delta unit than Raelin bering a superb delta unit (even if both works together).

Ashigarus are 65 in delta, compared to the whopping 100pts of the 10th it's free real estate imo. I don't know why you would even pick 10th, like 3x10th is 300pts for the same cost you can go 3xHarqs+Rae sotm that's better imo cause Raelin also benefit the other stuff in your army, and if you have 30 points to spare you can upgrade the Raelin and that's not even close.

Imo Harqs should see a +5, yeah they are hurt by Raelin pts increase but most of their counters (if not all of them) are also very hurt by delta, just my opinion.
 
The January update of Delta is here. Not a huge change list but hitting a few notable things.

Oops files
Spoiler Alert!
OK, the two VC Gladiator heroes dropping more isn't an "oops", but Spartacus and the squad are reversions back in the direction of the original pricing. This is a slight bump (5 points) to the "standard" steamroller, but alternative options are a bit less expensive than before.

The Templar Cavalry see a small bump after some impressive recent results; it turns out that 50 points was a bit too much of a discount for them.

Faction adjustments
Spoiler Alert!
The Varks get a slight bump in price in the most common tournament configurations, but it's mostly a redistribution with the 4-figure squads and ranged components becoming more expensive. The Ashigaru see more of the price shift towards the Harqs - Kato Swarms become cheaper then before, but Harq spam becomes more expensive. The Slashers see some discounts.

Misc. Adjustments
Spoiler Alert!
Krav are still good. Others are less so.
 
NorCal has a Delta pricing tourney coming up, so I made a Delta Excel table sortable by several things relevant to its army building rules. Download here.

Edit: Updated 5/15/24
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Are we getting a delta update this month? There are still a few figures that are definitely a little under/overcosted right now (e.g. Gothlok, Othkurik, I've heard a couple people say that the Microcorp Agents are slightly too cheap at the moment...)
 
We are pleased to announce the May updates to Delta. These will be the last updates to the prices until after Gencon/Scapecon. It’s not a huge list of changes this time.

Dragon Faction Adjustment

Spoiler Alert!


Greenscales get a small bump. Nilf sees a small discount because of that, while two of the lesser-used dragons see much bigger cuts to their prices.

The oops files

Spoiler Alert!


Nothing too dramatic here, just some small adjustments back towards the original prices.

Miscellaneous adjustments

Spoiler Alert!


Two small adjustments up, and some discounts. Let’s see if someone can break those cheap Swog Riders!

The first post and Heroscape.org’s builder should both be updated later today.
 
Ooh so exciting! A bunch of my favorite units (Ataraxis, Sonlen, Swog) got discounts!! That's gonna make army-building a little more fun!
 
I've decided to wait to publish these changes to .org until Sunday to accommodate the request of at least one tournament running a Delta event this weekend (Saturday).

That pattern may continue (Sunday release/updates) in the future to be as far away from Saturday events as possible.

This will also be the last Delta update prior to ScapeCon IV, for anyone attending that event. Fyi.
 
Chris Perkins said:
I've decided to wait to publish these changes to .org until Sunday to accommodate the request of at least one tournament running a Delta event this weekend (Saturday).

That pattern may continue (Sunday release/updates) in the future to be as far away from Saturday events as possible.

This will also be the last Delta update prior to ScapeCon IV, for anyone attending that event. Fyi.
Click to expand...

Thank you Chris, I appreciate it!
 


Well met!

dok said:
We are pleased to announce the May updates to Delta. These will be the last updates to the prices until after Gencon/Scapecon. It’s not a huge list of changes this time.

Dragon Faction Adjustment

Spoiler Alert!


Greenscales get a small bump. Nilf sees a small discount because of that, while two of the lesser-used dragons see much bigger cuts to their prices.

The oops files

Spoiler Alert!


Nothing too dramatic here, just some small adjustments back towards the original prices.

Miscellaneous adjustments

Spoiler Alert!


Two small adjustments up, and some discounts. Let’s see if someone can break those cheap Swog Riders!

The first post and Heroscape.org’s builder should both be updated later today.
Click to expand...

Too late! Shermanscape armies already submitted . . .

 
Chris Perkins said:
I've decided to wait to publish these changes to .org until Sunday to accommodate the request of at least one tournament running a Delta event this weekend (Saturday).

That pattern may continue (Sunday release/updates) in the future to be as far away from Saturday events as possible.

This will also be the last Delta update prior to ScapeCon IV, for anyone attending that event. Fyi.
Click to expand...

We have another one on June 1st and I can imagine I’m not the only one who’s been building their list for a while now. Thank you for the .org tool, btw, it’s freaking awesome. Much appreciated.
 
.org builder has just been updated to reflect the May 15th Delta changes. Fyi
 

Well met!

Grey Waves said:
Warden 816 85 → 80 points

Evisceraxe special attack, base attack of 3 at 7 range and 6 defence are all nice, but I feel that the Warden's survivability is too low for him to be worth 85 points, especially considering that the stronger ranged units that do well against the Warden in the endgame (e.g. Kaemon, B11s etc.) are the same things that do well against guard builds in general. He’s not a bad cheerleader by any means but he’s not super great either

~ Grey Waves, hoping this sparks discussion on other units’ point values too
Click to expand...

I've been teaming Warden 816 (now indeed 80 points in Delta) with Torin relatively successfully in non-Delta 'Scape. I look forward to finding a reason to field them in Delta. Torin is only 85 points (down from 120).

 
The next update for Delta prices is planned to be released on Monday, August 26th.
 
DECREASE THE CHUMPS:

Rechets of Bodgan 45--> 35 : They have still a high chance of never touching the board unless you runaway endlessly with Iskra and pass your turns, and even when they summon, it's only 3x3 nothing incredible, and it's super rare they get one turn more than their free turn.

Deathstalkers 80--> 70 : I cannot comprehend a world where they cost same as templars and cost more than Warforged, unless very specific machups Warforged avec better defense, offense and I'd even argue better mobility due to tactical switch and being single hexed.

Tagawa Samuraïs Archers SA: 60 --> 55: Bad stats and bad power. 3 defense counterstrike is only good vs 2 dice attacks, which in melee basically doesn't exist expect like unboosted blades and spiders. You can add Raelin to make the power better but it's so much investment into anti-melee.

Venocs 45--> 40: They bad, having their cost not decreased is already a variance tax.

Venoc Warlord 120 --> 100: Same, he bad. I don't understand why he's so high costed, Khosumet is like half the price for has much as a significant boost imo. The 9 move, while it's fun "wooooo I have 9 move!! 9!!" is not super significant, 7 move is enough to catch any ranged unit. Sure he has sightly better combat abilities than Khosumet but that's not what you look for for a cheerleader, you want the boost to be good and you want him to be cheap so you can spam more squads that benefits the boost.

Deadeye Dan 55 --> 45 (delta classic) The special attack is only significantly better than like an attack of 3 vs 4+ base defense squads. Not being able to move is so terrible.

55 --> 50 (VC delta) Less bad with Clayton, but still bad.

Minions of Utgar 105-->100, what are their good machups

Skeletons of Annelhintia 95-->90, 4 move 1 range 3 defense is very bad, 3 attack isn't great either, add to that either you have to pay lotta point for a beefy Duke, either you go with a cheap Duchess, and take the risk of seeing her getting sniped and see your guys becoming almost vanillas 4/1/3/3 for the whole game. For them top be a decent army I feel you need to run 4 of them + a cheap duchess, or 3 of them+ a big duke, in a 500 pointer which is possible at 90.

Beakface Sneaks 30-->25/20, cool 5 defense vs ranged, they can get more easily get engaged, and do nothing once engaged, kinda like EOV without the frenzy highroll potential...



BUMP THE BOSSES:

Omegacron 180--> 200/195: Omegacron + full repulsors very very good in delta, very annoying to play against, it has that Q9+rats vibe. You could bump Repulsors instead but as they mega**** without Omegacron I think bumping Omegacron makes more sense.

Exiles 75--> 80/85 Very sturdy vs range (much more than marros) and quite sturdy vs melee cause they just like play safe kite them. Disengage on a ranged squad with such high dps is also crazy. Incredible assassination potential, in some machups like Kurrok they can just go where they please and blast quadruple (or let's say triple if they lose a guy) 4v3 vs Kurrok win the game the end. If you play them right it's basically a 5 range sqaud I never saw black powder negative side being that huge of a deal, and never saw them ran out of markers.



Templars 80 --> 85

Microcorps Agents 90 --> 95
More on the fence for those two, but feel like they still have quite a decent amount of "oh, I win" situations right now and they are extremely played and fit into many builds and formats.

Those were my delta suggestions/demands you may or may not pay attention to them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top