Sorry, dok, but this is my time!
(Good luck and let me know when you're available to play.)
Hahahahah
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Delta: latest updates and discussion
- Thread starter dok
- Start date
Hahahahah
Grey Waves
Active member
Lol I posted that before the matchups for the playoffs were announced.
If you (or anyone else) has thoughts on my other nominations I’d love to hear them.
I appreciate the nominations, and we'll be sure to discuss them / take them under advisement for the June update.
Regarding potential future changes, I try to avoid posting public thoughts until after an update has been released, mainly because:
1) Our thoughts can change over the course of a 4 month period, especially based on OHS results, and my thoughts now could change before the next update drops
2) There's just too much potential time spent discussing all the potential changes, and I just don't have time to write up that much stuff on here; it's manageable for me to make posts after a release though, so I'll do my best to remember to address those 4 nominations after the June release is posted (whether or not those figures actually changed points).
We're targeting early June for the next release, which would give ~ 2 months lead time before ScapeCon.
Muskie
Active member
Thanks!!
dok did end up ending my run tonight. Also, one of my wins was without rats. (I ran Q9, Raelin, and Marcu against crypt guardians, Braxas, and the warden.)
ryguy266
Active member
In light of the massive Delta Classic tournament recently, I'd like to make a few point change nominations. These observations are pretty simple and have probably already been made by the Delta team, but at least I can formalize them here.
Crixus 95 -> 105
I'll start with the obvious one. At a 480-500 point total with a lower figure limit, the steamroller steamrolls. I think a look at the top 8 results from CCL Qualifier #1 shows a super healthy meta. Not a single duplicate army core showed, which is amazing that out of 30+ armies, 8 different ones can all compete for top spots. The Delta team has done great work to make that happen. Capuans x3, Crixus, Spartacus made 5 appearances, and once we look past the top 8 from the winner to the top 16, the other 4 armies showed up. The steamroller collectively went 17-8, and no army did worse than 3-2. But I think raising Capuans or Spartacus is way too punishing for any other format. Crixus is incredibly solid, and even though 10 points is a big increase, the glads need to come back down to earth somehow.
Sir Gilbert 150 -> 140 and Grimnak 150 -> 145
These are point drops because the knights were no-shows and the two classic heavies armies went 5-5, and only did that well because Chris Perkins was playing one of them. I spent a bit of time beforehand trying to create armies for each of the top three four-man melee bonding squads, and the dwarves were the only viable ones. They are each priced exactly the same, and I think throwing that out of balance would be bad. In fact, I don't think the dwarves need much in price adjustment. The results varied wildly according to the experience and skill of the players, which in my mind means they're about perfect. The problem is, all their main hero options are way cheaper than the main bonding options for the knights and the heavies. This is why knights were really not viable at all, and heavies were only viable because Nerak is pretty cheap. I think 10 and 5 points is pretty reasonable given they're still 35 and 25 points above their price range. This would really help the knights, who did not make a single appearance. The dwarves thrived because you could get dwarves x3, bonding hero and a strong ranged option like Kaemon or Q9. Knights could only get knights x3, Sir Gilbert with 90 points left, leaving no room for a good range hero. I understand that at a slightly higher point total knights they would become more viable, but 495 points is still a pretty high point total to begin with.
Nilfheim 230 -> 235
This one hurts. I love Nilfheim. I've played Nilf/Greenscales/Raelin across two Delta Classic competitive events so far, and they've performed incredibly well for me. I'm a collective 8-1 with them in Delta Classic (when I lost in the OHS season playoffs, it was a reverse draft and I lost to my own nerfed army, proving my point further). Additionally, kinseth won that same OHS season with that army. Raising the greenscales is unreasonable considering how high dragons have risen, and Raelin is in a fine spot right now. That means Nilf needs to go a smidge higher. I set out to prove that this core was the best Delta Classic army and I was close as all getout to doing it. My only loss in the Qualifier was to the second overall finish dwarves army and it came down to the hair on Darrak's beard (granted, my win against vegie and his Einar was also incredibly close, but the greenscales still pulled through). The army consisted of 8 figures. It looks so small in the start zones when you're fighting 4x or 3x of whatever. However, almost every map is exploitable in some way for Raelin and Nilfheim. The greenscales as fast tanks and extra attacks are the cherry on top. I'd love for someone to pick this argument apart and tell me that Nilfheim should actually drop down 10 points, but I don't think that's going to happen.
This turned out a little longer than I thought it would be, but what can I say? I like typing.
Crixus 95 -> 105
I'll start with the obvious one. At a 480-500 point total with a lower figure limit, the steamroller steamrolls. I think a look at the top 8 results from CCL Qualifier #1 shows a super healthy meta. Not a single duplicate army core showed, which is amazing that out of 30+ armies, 8 different ones can all compete for top spots. The Delta team has done great work to make that happen. Capuans x3, Crixus, Spartacus made 5 appearances, and once we look past the top 8 from the winner to the top 16, the other 4 armies showed up. The steamroller collectively went 17-8, and no army did worse than 3-2. But I think raising Capuans or Spartacus is way too punishing for any other format. Crixus is incredibly solid, and even though 10 points is a big increase, the glads need to come back down to earth somehow.
Sir Gilbert 150 -> 140 and Grimnak 150 -> 145
These are point drops because the knights were no-shows and the two classic heavies armies went 5-5, and only did that well because Chris Perkins was playing one of them. I spent a bit of time beforehand trying to create armies for each of the top three four-man melee bonding squads, and the dwarves were the only viable ones. They are each priced exactly the same, and I think throwing that out of balance would be bad. In fact, I don't think the dwarves need much in price adjustment. The results varied wildly according to the experience and skill of the players, which in my mind means they're about perfect. The problem is, all their main hero options are way cheaper than the main bonding options for the knights and the heavies. This is why knights were really not viable at all, and heavies were only viable because Nerak is pretty cheap. I think 10 and 5 points is pretty reasonable given they're still 35 and 25 points above their price range. This would really help the knights, who did not make a single appearance. The dwarves thrived because you could get dwarves x3, bonding hero and a strong ranged option like Kaemon or Q9. Knights could only get knights x3, Sir Gilbert with 90 points left, leaving no room for a good range hero. I understand that at a slightly higher point total knights they would become more viable, but 495 points is still a pretty high point total to begin with.
Nilfheim 230 -> 235
This one hurts. I love Nilfheim. I've played Nilf/Greenscales/Raelin across two Delta Classic competitive events so far, and they've performed incredibly well for me. I'm a collective 8-1 with them in Delta Classic (when I lost in the OHS season playoffs, it was a reverse draft and I lost to my own nerfed army, proving my point further). Additionally, kinseth won that same OHS season with that army. Raising the greenscales is unreasonable considering how high dragons have risen, and Raelin is in a fine spot right now. That means Nilf needs to go a smidge higher. I set out to prove that this core was the best Delta Classic army and I was close as all getout to doing it. My only loss in the Qualifier was to the second overall finish dwarves army and it came down to the hair on Darrak's beard (granted, my win against vegie and his Einar was also incredibly close, but the greenscales still pulled through). The army consisted of 8 figures. It looks so small in the start zones when you're fighting 4x or 3x of whatever. However, almost every map is exploitable in some way for Raelin and Nilfheim. The greenscales as fast tanks and extra attacks are the cherry on top. I'd love for someone to pick this argument apart and tell me that Nilfheim should actually drop down 10 points, but I don't think that's going to happen.
This turned out a little longer than I thought it would be, but what can I say? I like typing.
If you raise Crixus 10 pts, then you can't even bring a Classic Steamroller list to most events. Most events nowadays don't get high enough in points for the list to even show up. If Crixus goes up, Spartacus should come down.
ryguy266
Active member
The two events I mentioned and the Delta Classic event at Scapecon last year all ran 495+ points, which may be a coincidence or a quirk that they run higher than some events.
Grey Waves
Active member
@ryguy266 I think you're overlooking the specific features of the CCL Qualifier 1 when it comes to your nominations. The tournament had both a moderate (495 is about average) point total and a relatively small figure limit, and both of these played a huge factor in determining which armies did well and which armies didn't.
The Capuans were easily one of the biggest beneficiaries of the point total/figure limit. The figure limit in particular is a huge determinant of how viable the steamroller is at any particular event. As CCL1 demonstrated, the Capuans can be absolutely deadly at smaller figure limits, as they're not nearly as prone to getting outnumbered, plus they can absolutely demolish unique heroes such as Nilfheim. (The 'sweet spot' for the steamroller is usually a total of 11-15 figures; any more than that and running 4x of the 4-man bonding squads + a bonding hero becomes possible). However, their viability rapidly drops as the figure limit increases, with them being essentially unviable at events that allow for 20+ figures to be brought. (Vegie's dad went 0-3 in Season 49, which had a 24 figure limit, despite the fact that he was actually able to afford a 4th squad of Capuans). The small figure limit at CCL 1 combined with the fact that 495 is a near-perfect point total for the steamroller meant that Capuans x3 Crixus Spartacus was always going to be a top army for the format. However, if the point total was even 10 points less, or if the figure limit was just 2 figures higher, the steamroller's viability would have been far lower. As such, I don't think that the steamroller's performance in this event warrants a points increase for the army as a whole. This was just the rare event that happened to suit the army absolutely perfectly.
(As an aside, I would totally get behind a point increase for Crixus if Spartacus was to get an equivalent point cut. Retiarius and Tetraites still have basically 0 usage in delta and a slight point increase for Crixus might incentivise people to bring either of these bonding heroes instead of him. I don’t believe that making Crixus more expensive while keeping Spartacus the same points is a good idea though.)
The problem with knights is that this point total just did not work for them. Knights x3 Gilbert was 90 points short, and there just wasn’t a good option to fill in the blanks. All the good filler units like Zetacron or Mezzos 1x were still 15-20 points short, and while for example Knights x3 Gilbert Zetacron Isamu is not a terrible army, no-one really wanted to run it. However, if the event did in fact have a point total of 470-475 points instead of 495, those armies become a lot more attractive. I’ve focused on the point total so far in this paragraph, but it’s worth mentioning that if the figure limit was just 2 figures higher, then Knights x4 Gilbert becomes a very solid army that imo would have an above-average chance at making top 8.
In terms of heavies, don’t let their 50% win rate for this event fool you. Heavies x3 Grimnak Nerak Isamu was a very solid army for the format, and I myself personally considered running it. (I decided against it in the end because the Capuan matchup felt too polarising, but it definitely has a winnable matchup into most things). The only reason the army went 5-5 is because one of the people that brought it, as far as I can tell, has little experience with competitive Heroscape. Grimnak has shown himself to be a potent threat even in delta and I think 150 points for him is fine for now. (Although maybe heavies could be 80 points since their best 2 bonding heroes are significantly more expensive now? Idk no-one’s really played them at all in delta outside of this event).
Nilfheim is also fine where he is at the moment. He’s another figure that appreciated the smaller figure limit (armies like Knights x4 Gilbert or Axegrinders x4 Mogrimm would do very well into him if you were allowed 17 or more figures), and Nilfheim Greenscales x2 Raelin is another army that just fits the point total like a glove. Nilfheim already went up 10 points in the last delta update and I think it’s premature to be asking for another point rise.
That's totally fair enough.
The Capuans were easily one of the biggest beneficiaries of the point total/figure limit. The figure limit in particular is a huge determinant of how viable the steamroller is at any particular event. As CCL1 demonstrated, the Capuans can be absolutely deadly at smaller figure limits, as they're not nearly as prone to getting outnumbered, plus they can absolutely demolish unique heroes such as Nilfheim. (The 'sweet spot' for the steamroller is usually a total of 11-15 figures; any more than that and running 4x of the 4-man bonding squads + a bonding hero becomes possible). However, their viability rapidly drops as the figure limit increases, with them being essentially unviable at events that allow for 20+ figures to be brought. (Vegie's dad went 0-3 in Season 49, which had a 24 figure limit, despite the fact that he was actually able to afford a 4th squad of Capuans). The small figure limit at CCL 1 combined with the fact that 495 is a near-perfect point total for the steamroller meant that Capuans x3 Crixus Spartacus was always going to be a top army for the format. However, if the point total was even 10 points less, or if the figure limit was just 2 figures higher, the steamroller's viability would have been far lower. As such, I don't think that the steamroller's performance in this event warrants a points increase for the army as a whole. This was just the rare event that happened to suit the army absolutely perfectly.
(As an aside, I would totally get behind a point increase for Crixus if Spartacus was to get an equivalent point cut. Retiarius and Tetraites still have basically 0 usage in delta and a slight point increase for Crixus might incentivise people to bring either of these bonding heroes instead of him. I don’t believe that making Crixus more expensive while keeping Spartacus the same points is a good idea though.)
The problem with knights is that this point total just did not work for them. Knights x3 Gilbert was 90 points short, and there just wasn’t a good option to fill in the blanks. All the good filler units like Zetacron or Mezzos 1x were still 15-20 points short, and while for example Knights x3 Gilbert Zetacron Isamu is not a terrible army, no-one really wanted to run it. However, if the event did in fact have a point total of 470-475 points instead of 495, those armies become a lot more attractive. I’ve focused on the point total so far in this paragraph, but it’s worth mentioning that if the figure limit was just 2 figures higher, then Knights x4 Gilbert becomes a very solid army that imo would have an above-average chance at making top 8.
In terms of heavies, don’t let their 50% win rate for this event fool you. Heavies x3 Grimnak Nerak Isamu was a very solid army for the format, and I myself personally considered running it. (I decided against it in the end because the Capuan matchup felt too polarising, but it definitely has a winnable matchup into most things). The only reason the army went 5-5 is because one of the people that brought it, as far as I can tell, has little experience with competitive Heroscape. Grimnak has shown himself to be a potent threat even in delta and I think 150 points for him is fine for now. (Although maybe heavies could be 80 points since their best 2 bonding heroes are significantly more expensive now? Idk no-one’s really played them at all in delta outside of this event).
Nilfheim is also fine where he is at the moment. He’s another figure that appreciated the smaller figure limit (armies like Knights x4 Gilbert or Axegrinders x4 Mogrimm would do very well into him if you were allowed 17 or more figures), and Nilfheim Greenscales x2 Raelin is another army that just fits the point total like a glove. Nilfheim already went up 10 points in the last delta update and I think it’s premature to be asking for another point rise.
That's totally fair enough.
ryguy266
Active member
With the website back up, I can finally remember the suggestions I made in relation to the latest delta update.
In a sense, all of these changes happened through one way or another. Crixus and Nilfheim both got a point increase. Crixus' increase was a little less and Nilfheim's increase was quite a bit more, I think it's appropriate if Q9 is still at 250.
The knights and heavies discounts were also taken into effect by reducing the cost of the commons and increasing Gilbert and Grimnak. My suggested changes were very minor, and the "discount" only applies with 4x or greater copies of the commons, so that works out.
Great work as usual Delta Team. I hope these comments at least helped spark discussion. (This is also a reminder to update the OP.)
In a sense, all of these changes happened through one way or another. Crixus and Nilfheim both got a point increase. Crixus' increase was a little less and Nilfheim's increase was quite a bit more, I think it's appropriate if Q9 is still at 250.
The knights and heavies discounts were also taken into effect by reducing the cost of the commons and increasing Gilbert and Grimnak. My suggested changes were very minor, and the "discount" only applies with 4x or greater copies of the commons, so that works out.
Great work as usual Delta Team. I hope these comments at least helped spark discussion. (This is also a reminder to update the OP.)
Apologies for the late update to the OP; since we rolled out the update during the site downtime it got lost in the shuffle. For those who didn't see it on the Discord, here is a summary of the changes:
ORC POINT REDISTRIBUTION
Grimnak 150->165
Heavy Gruts 85->80
KNIGHT POINT REDISTRIBUTION
Sir Gilbert 150->165
Knights of Weston 85->80
Sir Denrick 85->75
GLADIATOR POINT REDISTRIBUTION
Capuan Gladiators 70->75
Crixus 95->100
Retiarius 70->65
Tetraites 105->100
Priscus 90->80
Spartacus 185->175
ELITE DRAGON BUMP (and side-effects)
Nilfheim 230->245
Quahon 230->245
Wyvern (VC only) 75->80
Greenscale Warriors 65->60
OOPS FILES
Zogross Hardscale 100->110
Hoplitron 40->35
Mohican River Tribe 75->70
A COUPLE MARVEL TWEAKS
Venom 150->165
Spider-Man 160->155
10th ARE STILL GOOD
10th Regiment of Foot 95->100
COMMON SQUAD DISCOUNT BIN
Amberhive Protectors 50->45
Anubian Wolves 70->65
Deathstalkers 85->80
Gorillinators 80->75
Granite Guardians 85->80
Honor Guard of the Blasted Lands 65->60
M-43 Resistance Fighters 65->60
Microcorp Agents 90->85
Omnicron Snipers 90->85
Sentinels of Jandar 105->100
Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep 80->75
Templar Cavalry 75->70
Varkaanan Blade Dancers 75->70
Quasatch Hunters 90->80
HERO DISCOUNT BIN
Saylind the Kyrie Warrior 60->50
Master Win Chiu Woo (Classic Only) 125->110
Su-Bak-Na 150->130
ORC POINT REDISTRIBUTION
Grimnak 150->165
Heavy Gruts 85->80
KNIGHT POINT REDISTRIBUTION
Sir Gilbert 150->165
Knights of Weston 85->80
Sir Denrick 85->75
GLADIATOR POINT REDISTRIBUTION
Capuan Gladiators 70->75
Crixus 95->100
Retiarius 70->65
Tetraites 105->100
Priscus 90->80
Spartacus 185->175
ELITE DRAGON BUMP (and side-effects)
Nilfheim 230->245
Quahon 230->245
Wyvern (VC only) 75->80
Greenscale Warriors 65->60
OOPS FILES
Zogross Hardscale 100->110
Hoplitron 40->35
Mohican River Tribe 75->70
A COUPLE MARVEL TWEAKS
Venom 150->165
Spider-Man 160->155
10th ARE STILL GOOD
10th Regiment of Foot 95->100
COMMON SQUAD DISCOUNT BIN
Amberhive Protectors 50->45
Anubian Wolves 70->65
Deathstalkers 85->80
Gorillinators 80->75
Granite Guardians 85->80
Honor Guard of the Blasted Lands 65->60
M-43 Resistance Fighters 65->60
Microcorp Agents 90->85
Omnicron Snipers 90->85
Sentinels of Jandar 105->100
Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep 80->75
Templar Cavalry 75->70
Varkaanan Blade Dancers 75->70
Quasatch Hunters 90->80
HERO DISCOUNT BIN
Saylind the Kyrie Warrior 60->50
Master Win Chiu Woo (Classic Only) 125->110
Su-Bak-Na 150->130
Dragon Ruler
Active member
Are these updates being used for ScapeCon events?
Sentinels of Jandar should be lower. A squad of 3 attack of 3 with no range. Compare Deathstalkers and Minions of Utgar, and maybe Monks. Minions have the ability to attack much higher with bonuses. All (except Monks) have high defense, but Sentinels must roll shields in order for that high defense to work, and it's only a one third chance to roll a shield. I ran Minions, Sentinels, Protectors, and Wolves of Badru in the Delta 4 x 4 or whatever it was called. I got slaughtered with the Sentinels as they just weren't able to attack.
Being on the other side in this matchup for 4x350 Delta, I agree that 10 points isn't enough of a cut for them. I only lost 3 Greenscales in that game (3x GSW, Moltenclaw v. 3x Sentinels, Black Wyrmling). While Healing Waters was decent for me, the congested middle is ideal to fly over and I just stayed by the center 4-hex tree. I would compare Sentinels as well to Quasatch Hunters which are currently at 80.
I also played Sentinels in another (non-Delta) game and they did nothing.
The September Delta update is here.
The oops... file?
Less corrective actions this time around. There's actually one other card that rebounded back in the direction of its original cost, but it was part of a factional tweak, so let's get to that:
Faction Redistribution
It seems that we overshot slightly on the brigands, to the point that the best option was to ignore the rogue heroes and just spam brigands. So we pushed them back up 5 but lowered the cost of some of their bonding options.
Bumps
Yeah, 260 for a classic 'scape figure. Wild times we live in.
MBS is still a massive value engine in his bonding builds even at 75, and if Scapecon demonstrated anything it was that Mimring and Marrden Hounds are good.
Common Discount Bin
Some 5 point discounts for figures that haven't had a ton of success in Delta.
Uniques Discount Bin
Unlike with the commons, some of these discounts are much steeper cuts, including 20 point drops for Ashi-Dhulu, Mok, and Cxurg'gyath. I'm excited to see what people do with these discounted figures!
.org updates should be live soon and I'll update the spreadsheet links in the OP in the next couple days.
The oops... file?
Spoiler Alert!
Faction Redistribution
Spoiler Alert!
Bumps
Spoiler Alert!
MBS is still a massive value engine in his bonding builds even at 75, and if Scapecon demonstrated anything it was that Mimring and Marrden Hounds are good.
Common Discount Bin
Spoiler Alert!
Uniques Discount Bin
Spoiler Alert!
.org updates should be live soon and I'll update the spreadsheet links in the OP in the next couple days.
Ashi-Dhulu! Woot!
I'm curious about people's thought on price drops for relatively recently released figures (Ranjit down to 90, Ataraxis to 150)
*innocent whistling*
I supported Ranjit and actually nudged them about Ataraxis. Ranjit just is so susceptible to plans going awry that he really needs the drop. Ataraxis I could see needing a bump back but as is, a lot of her better companion units are either still really expensive or got a bump in points.
~Dysole, informationally
I supported Ranjit and actually nudged them about Ataraxis. Ranjit just is so susceptible to plans going awry that he really needs the drop. Ataraxis I could see needing a bump back but as is, a lot of her better companion units are either still really expensive or got a bump in points.
~Dysole, informationally
I think Ranjit dropping to 90 might be too low but as someone who enjoys the unorthodox armies you can build around him I'm not unhappy about it. I've been playing Ranjit ton recently with both Lawmen & unique squads and had a ton of success. Ataraxis going down to 150 feels about right
I think the Ataraxis drop is right too. Marcu is basically an auto-include in her armies. Terrifying and a cheap hero for the Nanobot Virus. Her 10 point drop from keeps the duo at the same cost as in non-delta.
Regarding Ranjit:
Caveat: I love Ranjit and would love to see him actually be viable.
1) Ranjit is already hurt by the best Ranjit-things going up (significantly) in Delta. I'm thinking about, among others: Krav, Rats, Raelin. Guilty going up in VC-Delta is actually kinda relevant too, though less relevant if you can't fit Raelin because he's a Lion-of-Punjab-Risk.
2) Being forced to telegraph your OMs is a massive hinderance. Ranjit forces this to the extreme. And, to cap it off, if you succeed in burning the OM, the bonus is lost for the round. That's probably the biggest downside; if it was like Steamroller where the Gladiators kept the bonus for the round, he would be way stronger, because he has access to a lot more cheap unique heroes.
3) Ranjit has only been played two times in delta tournaments tracked by .org. Note: this does NOT include OHS, where Ranjit has seen way more use. So it's not a perfect measure. But I do think it means many people have actively passed on him often enough to merit the drop.
4) For armies that are more "unorthodox", as gbizzy put it, I'm 100% fine with risking over-correcting a bit too much to provide the opportunity for someone to develop a strong way to play the build and show how it can be done successfully (as long as the army isn't cancerous to the meta; Deadeye Dan rolling his d20 is different). I'd rather put an unorthodox figure at 5-10 points under where they "should" cost (not that it's what I think we're doing here) if it encourages people to actually find out what the optimal builds are, as that both enhances the games' strategy and gives better data for future Delta releases. Again, not necessarily applying here, but a general metric I think is useful.
So I guess the summary is: I think 90 points is a good spot for Ranjit, but if someone proves that wrong and shows meaningful success with him, that's also great.
Caveat: I love Ranjit and would love to see him actually be viable.
1) Ranjit is already hurt by the best Ranjit-things going up (significantly) in Delta. I'm thinking about, among others: Krav, Rats, Raelin. Guilty going up in VC-Delta is actually kinda relevant too, though less relevant if you can't fit Raelin because he's a Lion-of-Punjab-Risk.
2) Being forced to telegraph your OMs is a massive hinderance. Ranjit forces this to the extreme. And, to cap it off, if you succeed in burning the OM, the bonus is lost for the round. That's probably the biggest downside; if it was like Steamroller where the Gladiators kept the bonus for the round, he would be way stronger, because he has access to a lot more cheap unique heroes.
3) Ranjit has only been played two times in delta tournaments tracked by .org. Note: this does NOT include OHS, where Ranjit has seen way more use. So it's not a perfect measure. But I do think it means many people have actively passed on him often enough to merit the drop.
4) For armies that are more "unorthodox", as gbizzy put it, I'm 100% fine with risking over-correcting a bit too much to provide the opportunity for someone to develop a strong way to play the build and show how it can be done successfully (as long as the army isn't cancerous to the meta; Deadeye Dan rolling his d20 is different). I'd rather put an unorthodox figure at 5-10 points under where they "should" cost (not that it's what I think we're doing here) if it encourages people to actually find out what the optimal builds are, as that both enhances the games' strategy and gives better data for future Delta releases. Again, not necessarily applying here, but a general metric I think is useful.
So I guess the summary is: I think 90 points is a good spot for Ranjit, but if someone proves that wrong and shows meaningful success with him, that's also great.
The way I describe Ranjit is that he essentially forces you to build a "toolbox" build. By itself, that's already a mild disadvantage (consistent armies tend to do better) but it gives you the advantage of versatility. But then, if you want to actually take advantage of Ranjit's power, you have to abandon that versatility because your OMs are in a straightjacket. Combine that with the inherent fragility and it's a really tough combo.
But as I said, I'm excited to see people make a run with him at this lower price.
But as I said, I'm excited to see people make a run with him at this lower price.