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Delta: latest updates and discussion

caps said:
Colorado events are now allowing the released AoA units (via proxies). I expect we won't be the only group to do so. Has Delta discussed incorporating them into future updates? I imagine it would complicate things a little (the value of certain Unique Squads in VC and the value of Crimson Widow seem quite intertwined, for example).
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To answer the direct question: I don't remember us having a direct discussion. If we did, it wasn't very long.

If we did have said discussion though, my initial view (& vote) would be against any AoA inclusion. My view is that it's a massive undertaking & hassle for little gain. As you alluded to, we'd have to consider re-pricing everything for meta-changes from those AoA units (probably not that many would be affected, but we'd have to think about all of them to know which ones are). And updating 3 lists is harder than updating 2 lists. I'm much more concerned with finding & fixing leaks in the existing prices than trying to add new units in there (admittedly, marvel was an exception, in part because it was easy, and in part because it helped make Heroscape.org work better). It would also be much tougher to get real-world game data as feedback (which we get from classic & VC scape all the time), so I'd have less confidence in the final product of Delta.

Also, I'm not sure that it's delta's place to determine what units should be tournament legal or not. VC is so accepted & intrinsic to the community that Delta VC makes sense to me. I suppose it's possible released AoA units could reach that point eventually (although I'm skeptical), but they certainly aren't anywhere near that point at present.

That being said, I'd think that using Delta pricing with the released AoA prices would be more balanced than standard pricing with the AoA prices, so that combination seems a reasonable one for any local scene that wants to integrate AoA units in somehow.

My 2 cents anyways.
 
dok said:
We’re pleased to announce the November update to the Delta Pricing system. There are 31 cards with price adjustments, plus we’ve added Delta prices for all the Marvel heroes.

You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and I imagine the builder on heroscape.org will be updated within a few days.

Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:

Good stuff is still really good, continued
Spoiler Alert!

Raelin could probably go to 150 and she would still see play. She will see play even when overpriced because she is often the most logical add due to universal synergy. The goal is not to make her overpriced, but 135 is not overpriced.

The Raelin bump hurts Nilf a good bit, but the whole package costing 25 more feels reasonable, honestly. With greenscales going down in the last update, and deservedly so, the best uniques need to bear more of the cost. The same goes for Quahon - I have a hard time justifying more than a 5 point gap between the best dragons, even with spiders nerfed in Delta VC.

The oops files, and/or faction reapportionments
Spoiler Alert!

Only a few cards (Deathcommander, Kiova, and Bahadur) are actually bouncing back towards their classic price, but in each case they are part of a larger reassessment of the faction. Kiova is taking a bit more of the price from the now-cheaper Imperium. Arktos has been the value hero pick for the Varks for a while, so we’re adjusting based on that. The Deathborg faction has remained weak in Delta, so we’re giving a discount, and that discount gets even steeper for 9k in classic, where his range boost is much less significant.

Make Mine Marvel!
Spoiler Alert!

The other 5 Marvel heroes enter Delta at their standard prices.

Metagame Beneficiaries
Spoiler Alert!

Cheaper Death Knights and a generally more leveled-out meta made Azazel too good of a value engine - he almost always came back once and that’s all it takes for him to earn his points. Warriors of Ashra benefit from less prevalent special attacks and a more melee-friendly meta.

Common Discount bin
Spoiler Alert!

The Kyrie squads (including the previously mentioned Einar Imperium) all take a small discount. Nottingham Brigands take a small discount due to underperforming. Obsidian Guards are still priced for their performance on VW maps but at 65 they are still probably conservatively priced. Swong Riders have been a consistent underperformer for a long time on modern maps and are probably overdue for a discount.

Unique discount bin
Spoiler Alert!

Skahen, Syvarris, and Nakitas all take a slight discount to put their prices more in line with the Krav/Airborne/Marro Warriors. The three most underperforming unique melee squads all take a price cut, with the NotNW’s cut only applying in classic when Kantono isn’t around. Parmenio is a fair bit worse in Delta where there’s no underpriced Raelin to discipline, and Migol suffers by comparison to the other Dwarf heroes. The rest are a series of smaller discounts (well, other than Dupuis’s) for some relatively weak standalone heroes.

---

Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this
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Super late to this, but you are a GOD
 
Are Marro Warriors worth 35 points more than Stingers? They are better overall but have downsides VS Stingers too (1 less attack dice, unique being the primary); just not sure that they are a full 35 points better - they also cost a little more than the 10th and 4th as well for other comparisons and I’m not sure 1 unit of either isn’t better than Marro Warriors at 110. I’m not saying their current pricing is nesc. incorrect but interested to hear the reasoning behind the 110 cost.
 
Shadowking said:
Are Marro Warriors worth 35 points more than Stingers? They are better overall but have downsides VS Stingers too (1 less attack dice, unique being the primary); just not sure that they are a full 35 points better - they also cost a little more than the 10th and 4th as well for other comparisons and I’m not sure 1 unit of either isn’t better than Marro Warriors at 110. I’m not saying their current pricing is nesc. incorrect but interested to hear the reasoning behind the 110 cost.
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So, to be frank, I don't think the direct comparison between common squad v. unique squad is the best example, because it forces a comparison while either assuming just 1x of the common (obviously terrible) or assuming some fractional value of a larger common build (x3 - x5 probably).

That being said, I'll try to answer the direct question as best as I can.

The thing you have to keep in mind with MWs is that they have quite a few end-game situations where they just auto-win given enough time (because of water clone). Almost any mele hero, < 2x of a common mele squad, <= 1x of a ranged common squad, a single-attacking ranged hero, etc. all just suck into them at the end of the game if the MWs player knows what they're doing. The same can't really be said for having 1 squad of stingers / 4th / 10th left at the end of the game. A top player having MWs left at the end of a non-timed game is a nightmare for anyone, unless they happen to have a specific hero or squad that counters MWs particularly well (which there aren't many of). MWs are also better as a pure-opening unit because they can retreat and heal, which none of the commons can.

If you're going to try a direct comparison with a common squad, I think you have to assume 1.5x of that common (or something around there). So, how do you feel about MWs v. 6 4th / 10th or 4 Stingers?

I think a more interesting question, though, is a comparison of the various unique squads, since they tend to fill much more similar types of roles (lead-off, clean-up, range behind a mele screen, etc.).

When MWs were 100 points, I think they were almost an auto-include over any of the other 110-120 point unique squads. I won the 1st Delta OHS event with Quahon, Spiders x4, MWs, and most games weren't particularly close. That army was underpriced quite a bit, with Spiders also being cheaper then, but MWs are just so good in a build like that because the primary offense (in that case, Quahon) can target the figures that MWs don't have a near auto-win against in the late game, setting up the favorable late game situation for you a ton.

Personally, I think our overall point differences between the unique squads are pretty good right now; I know I've been tempted to use most of them in various delta armies over the past 4 months.

But, all that being said, even if MWs are slightly overpriced (which I don't think they are)...that's way better than them being underpriced, given how broken of a unit they can be in the right situation.
 
Chris Perkins said:
Shadowking said:
Are Marro Warriors worth 35 points more than Stingers? They are better overall but have downsides VS Stingers too (1 less attack dice, unique being the primary); just not sure that they are a full 35 points better - they also cost a little more than the 10th and 4th as well for other comparisons and I’m not sure 1 unit of either isn’t better than Marro Warriors at 110. I’m not saying their current pricing is nesc. incorrect but interested to hear the reasoning behind the 110 cost.
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So, to be frank, I don't think the direct comparison between common squad v. unique squad is the best example, because it forces a comparison while either assuming just 1x of the common (obviously terrible) or assuming some fractional value of a larger common build (x3 - x5 probably).

That being said, I'll try to answer the direct question as best as I can.

The thing you have to keep in mind with MWs is that they have quite a few end-game situations where they just auto-win given enough time (because of water clone). Almost any mele hero, < 2x of a common mele squad, <= 1x of a ranged common squad, a single-attacking ranged hero, etc. all just suck into them at the end of the game if the MWs player knows what they're doing. The same can't really be said for having 1 squad of stingers / 4th / 10th left at the end of the game. A top player having MWs left at the end of a non-timed game is a nightmare for anyone, unless they happen to have a specific hero or squad that counters MWs particularly well (which there aren't many of). MWs are also better as a pure-opening unit because they can retreat and heal, which none of the commons can.

If you're going to try a direct comparison with a common squad, I think you have to assume 1.5x of that common (or something around there). So, how do you feel about MWs v. 6 4th / 10th or 4 Stingers?

I think a more interesting question, though, is a comparison of the various unique squads, since they tend to fill much more similar types of roles (lead-off, clean-up, range behind a mele screen, etc.).

When MWs were 100 points, I think they were almost an auto-include over any of the other 110-120 point unique squads. I won the 1st Delta OHS event with Quahon, Spiders x4, MWs, and most games weren't particularly close. That army was underpriced quite a bit, with Spiders also being cheaper then, but MWs are just so good in a build like that because the primary offense (in that case, Quahon) can target the figures that MWs don't have a near auto-win against in the late game, setting up the favorable late game situation for you a ton.

Personally, I think our overall point differences between the unique squads are pretty good right now; I know I've been tempted to use most of them in various delta armies over the past 4 months.

But, all that being said, even if MWs are slightly overpriced (which I don't think they are)...that's way better than them being underpriced, given how broken of a unit they can be in the right situation.
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Right, yeah that makes sense; so you basically the idea is that you are going to still consider them at 110 in armies that are good at creating the kinds of end-game scenarios that the Marro Warriors are really good at winning consistently? The Krav seem more consistently good in the average game scenario for 5 more points and Airborne seem better when the RNG doesn’t wreck you (but aren’t super consistent), but neither can create the same end-games as Marro Warriors can for sure.
 
These numbers aren't just pulled out of the air. They are playtested at every Delta tournament.
 
caps said:
Colorado events are now allowing the released AoA units (via proxies). I expect we won't be the only group to do so. Has Delta discussed incorporating them into future updates? I imagine it would complicate things a little (the value of certain Unique Squads in VC and the value of Crimson Widow seem quite intertwined, for example).
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This is an interesting discussion. I didn't realize the community considered them as real units, especially considering how much pushback I've seen against proxies in the past. I don't think Lincoln tournaments will allow AoA units, they didn't seem fully tested and even changed during the campaign. If they were allowed, I think with Chris that Delta as-is with AoA would be fine.
 
ryguy266 said:
This is an interesting discussion. I didn't realize the community considered them as real units, especially considering how much pushback I've seen against proxies in the past. I don't think Lincoln tournaments will allow AoA units, they didn't seem fully tested and even changed during the campaign. If they were allowed, I think with Chris that Delta as-is with AoA would be fine.
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The dev team released a statement saying that with a few erratta the cards were considered "done." They finalized them as the campaign was wrapping up.

As for whether they are "real units," they are as real as VC units, if not more.
 
Well 110 points Marros seem a lot but thing is, they are better than Nakitas, and better than Syvarris, who are like the definition of balanced units.
I think 110 pts is nice, that said I think Krav should be more than 115points, in my opinion I would always take the Kravs over the Marro Warriors. Kravs bring more on the table in terms of machups imo. Modern maps definitely nerfed the Kravs but I still think they are a very good unit you can slap into any army just like MW and Raelin.

I don't understand how Arrow Gruts have the same price as Venoc Vipers.
Arrow Gruts have multiples tournaments wins in "bring 1" or 4x4 events, they are definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I don't think vipers ever won a single tournament, they are simply too weak and have simply too many horrible machups.

To me Vipers should be 35 or 40, or Venoc Warlord should be discounted.
Even if I think the delta meta is more soft towards Vipers (cause almost every 4 men squads are nerfed) I still think they are a weak squad overall, and not a strong squad like arrow gruts.

caps said:
As for whether they are "real units," they are as real as VC units, if not more.
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Except for the fact that they don't exist.
Like, even before we look at the card, the first criterias to check for the unit to even be considered in SoV/C3V are:
- has to be a pre-painted figure, which fits well with herocape aestetics
- figure has to be avalaible at a decent price for most people
So just because they are AH made they get an auto-pass on that?
What's the point to make customs for figures that don't exist? I really don't get it.

It's not the place to talk about that anyway.
 
Foudzing said:
Well 110 points Marros seem a lot but thing is, they are better than Nakitas, and better than Syvarris, who are like the definition of balanced units.
I think 110 pts is nice, that said I think Krav should be more than 115points, in my opinion I would always take the Kravs over the Marro Warriors. Kravs bring more on the table in terms of machups imo. Modern maps definitely nerfed the Kravs but I still think they are a very good unit you can slap into any army just like MW and Raelin.

I don't understand how Arrow Gruts have the same price as Venoc Vipers.
Arrow Gruts have multiples tournaments wins in "bring 1" or 4x4 events, they are definitely a force to be reckoned with.
I don't think vipers ever won a single tournament, they are simply too weak and have simply too many horrible machups.

To me Vipers should be 35 or 40, or Venoc Warlord should be discounted.
Even if I think the delta meta is more soft towards Vipers (cause almost every 4 men squads are nerfed) I still think they are a weak squad overall, and not a strong squad like arrow gruts.
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I think Krav are very comparable to MW in many armies. I have taken MW straight up over Krav in certain builds and vice versa. I think they both offer similar value in their ideal roles. Krav have had some decent results recently with WoA/Raelin, but nothing that makes me think they are underpriced currently. I don’t have a problem with them being slightly more than MW, but they should be very close IMO.


Straight up comparing the cost of Vipers and AGs is irrelevant. AGs are worthless without bonding heroes. Krug and Mimring both went up slightly, (Krug 5, Mimsy 15) but the big thing here is Raelin. I can’t recall ever seeing AGs doing wel in a bring one event without her, so her being +55 is a huge nerf to the AG army as a whole.
 
Hi! I'm a long-time Heroscape player and lurker on this site but now I finally decided to write something. We've been using Delta points for about 6 months now with my friends and I feel it has really improved the game.

Our Heroscape collection isn't very large, we have all four master sets, Deathwalker 8000 and Sudema. We play 1vs1 and 3-way matches, always with draft. Thanks to Delta, Raelin and Marro Warriors aren't always picked and character like Erevan Sunshadow and Deathwalkers are actually used. But I have a couple of questions and thoughts about some points:

Grimnak: For us 150 points seems a bit overpriced. Since we don't have any orcs, his enhancement ability is useless. I've been thinking about reducing his points to 130. What do you think his value should be without the enhancement ability?

Mimring vs Spider-Man: I don't know if we just can't use Mimring well, but if I have to choose between 165 Mimring or 160 Spider-Man, it's always Spidey. Mimring just dies so easily. Personally I feel Spidey is a better character. He is smaller (usually in our game it's a good thing), has better defense and Spider-sense ability.

But in general I feel that Delta is the way this game is meant to be played. Thank you for your effort!
 
Hijole said:
Hi! I'm a long-time Heroscape player and lurker on this site but now I finally decided to write something. We've been using Delta points for about 6 months now with my friends and I feel it has really improved the game.
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Glad to hear you're enjoying Delta.

Hijole said:
Grimnak: For us 150 points seems a bit overpriced. Since we don't have any orcs, his enhancement ability is useless. I've been thinking about reducing his points to 130. What do you think his value should be without the enhancement ability?
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Without a bonding squad, Grimnak is pretty trash, even at his original 120. Honestly, I have no idea what a 'balanced' point total for him is in a world without Blades or Heavies, but I think it's < 100 points. Obviously something that I've never tested (or thought about before) though.

For Grimnak, it's honestly more about his bonding squad protecting him (as a screen) than just him boosting them though. Grimnak without blockers dies pretty fast. Without a screen, Grimnak chomps 2-3 figures. With a good screen in the right matchup, Grimnak chomps 6-8 figures.

Hijole said:
Mimring vs Spider-Man: I don't know if we just can't use Mimring well, but if I have to choose between 165 Mimring or 160 Spider-Man, it's always Spidey. Mimring just dies so easily. Personally I feel Spidey is a better character. He is smaller (usually in our game it's a good thing), has better defense and Spider-sense ability.
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Based on your overall post, I'm guessing you don't have Arrow Gruts either? Without Arrow Gruts Mimring isn't gonna be good in delta, for sure. Again, a hero that really wants blockers to keep him alive.

My best suggestion is to proxy the figures you're missing (you can proxy Tarn for Blades/Heavies, for example, if you have a few squads of Tarn lying around) or Marro Drudge for Arrow Gruts, for example. That way you can get the maximum value out of those bonding heroes.
 
I don't want to make Grimnak too cheap because in our games Marvel units are used quite often and Grimnak can chomp any one of them. If he costs 90 points it probably makes him too good pick against super heroes.

But using Marro Drudge as Arrow Gruts is a great idea! Two of my biggest problems, Mimring and Grimnak a lot better with one squad! Marro Drudge is used very rarely anyways. Thanks Chris!
 
Hijole said:
I don't want to make Grimnak too cheap because in our games Marvel units are used quite often and Grimnak can chomp any one of them. If he costs 90 points it probably makes him too good pick against super heroes.

But using Marro Drudge as Arrow Gruts is a great idea! Two of my biggest problems, Mimring and Grimnak a lot better with one squad! Marro Drudge is used very rarely anyways. Thanks Chris!
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Note that Grimnak bonds with Blade Gruts and Heavy Gruts but not Arrow Gruts.

I'd also add that in my opinion Mimring is typically better when you use him as an 8 range sniper than when you go for big fire-line plays that leave him exposed.
 
caps said:
I'd also add that in my opinion Mimring is typically better when you use him as an 8 range sniper than when you go for big fire-line plays that leave him exposed.
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Agreed. As cool at Fireline is, it tends to be a 'nice to have' that can provide an epic moment, but can't be relied upon as part of the overall strategy. Not that it stops me from trying anyway. :)
 
Looking at building some Delta Spiders armies and am wondering about the worth of Sujoah VS Wyverns in them (assuming Classic only, so no Quahon available); Sujoah costs 70 more points than a single Wyvern (two Wyverns is only 20 points more than Sujoah) and has +2 life, +1 move, and Poison Sting Special Attack, losing out on Talon Grab and Venomous Sting. Poison Sting gives you access to a decent special attack, and Venomous Sting seems pretty meh, but Talon Grab is pretty handy on Wyverns and they aren't that much slower or less tanky - so is there ever a situation where you'd want to bring Sujoah at 160 VS two Wyverns at 180 (barring some specific point total issues)? There are match-ups where getting the bonding special attacker seems potentially helpful but my guess is that the two Wyverns (or one Wyvern with 70 left-over points for something else) is gonna be better in the majority of cases into most things?
 
The February update to the Delta pricing system is here! It's another fairly hefty update with 42 cards getting changes.

You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and the the builder on heroscape.org is updated as well.

Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:

Nerf... Twig
Spoiler Alert!
Not a ton here. Quahon remains good, and the VC law-persons were tending to outshine the classic cowboys in the new Clayton builds.

Faction Adjustments
Spoiler Alert!
Talingul/Boreos is a very solid core in Delta VC, while some of the other pieces of that build seemed relatively overpriced. The ranged parts of the Vark build continue to be the engine of those builds, while some of the more overpriced melee components get a discount. The rogue faction gets a pretty across-the-board discount.

The Oops Files
Spoiler Alert!
In three of four cases here, we're just returning the card to the original printed value. Microcorp Troopers remain at a higher point total than their original but are now a bit cheaper than the 10th regiment, who tend to outclass them.

Bargain Bin
Spoiler Alert!
Just a set of figures that still seem relatively underplayed. Pelloth moves into a tie with Grok Riders as the most discounted card.
 
I'm kind of surprised to see Kurroock going down. I take it the idea is that the Fire Elementals are already high-priced enough, and this allows other elemental builds more breathing room?

I'm glad to see the Deepwyrm Drow come down to 60, but it still seems too high to me.

I'm very happy about the Vark changes, particularly Manauvi coming down. He's always been one of my favorite Varkaanans.
 
caps said:
I'm kind of surprised to see Kurroock going down. I take it the idea is that the Fire Elementals are already high-priced enough, and this allows other elemental builds more breathing room?
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With Fire and Water elementals both getting a bump to their price, we just haven't seen any successful Kurrok builds in Delta. We've seen a smattering of Air Elementals in Death Knight builds and that's all.

I'm sure Kurrok would be successful in a heroes-only format, but outside of that the boost seems needed.

caps said:
I'm glad to see the Deepwyrm Drow come down to 60, but it still seems too high to me.
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It's possible. We tend to be a bit more conservative with changes to commons since even a change of 5 points scales up when you get to full armies.

caps said:
I'm very happy about the Vark changes, particularly Manauvi coming down. He's always been one of my favorite Varkaanans.
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:up:
 
Are there any thoughts about bumping the Deathreavers up by 5-10 points? In the ongoing OHS season there are four armies with the rats, two of which have made it to the finals. The armies have also gone like 9-4 when using rats. Not unbeatable, but that's still very strong, especially considering the armies don't share any other units besides the Krav. No other non-filler unit appears that much except for the Marro warriors. Even Raelin RotV only shows up in three armies.
But Scytale's recent review of Nordlung is actually what got me thinking about the price increase. Ultimately, the "fun factor" partly led to a negative review. Scytale mentioned that a power "isn't fun or interesting for either player." This is exactly the Deathreavers. [insert rant on difference between "cheese" and "meta" here] I think the 'reavers used to be 70 in the older Delta project, but I don't know why they came down (genuinely, I can't find the post explaining the cost decrease). Punishing Deathreavers x3 with a 15 point increase might be something worth looking into.
 
I agree with Ryguy's nomination. I don't necessarily agree that we should adjust delta costs based on how fun a unit is to play against, but I think the current OHS season has shown that deathreavers at 60 points a squad is still too cheap. Builds like rats x3 Q9, rats x3 Krav Kaemon or even rats x3 Krav Raelin are an autowin against too many armies to justify a cost of just 435 points. @quozl made playoffs comfortably with a 3-1 record and is likely to go further, and while @Mother Ewe only went 2-2, she would have won her round 1 game against me had my 2/6 life Marcu not rolled 1/1 shields against a 2 skull attack from one of the red wyrmlings. (Yes, that's how close this game was). I think a 5 point increase to 65 points a squad is appropriate, as it would better reflect how strong rats are as a support unit while also making the above builds just a little bit more expensive.

While I'm here I'd like to make a couple of other quick nominations as well:

Tyrian 100 --> 95 - he still seems slightly outclassed by other units that do his job better, like the Krav or even Nakitas.
Hoplitrons 40 --> 35 - 2 attacks of 4 is not breaking the meta any time soon and with J15 going up 10 points that army core is too expensive.
Granite Guardians 85 --> 80 - no-one's shown any real interest in them even at 85 points and their matchups into range are still miserable.
Eltahale 145 -->150 - Eltahale is just fundamentally very good at what she does (killing big heroes), and even in matchups where that's not relevant she still has a 4-die multi-target SA and really good survivability.
 
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(The drow still seem too expensive to me)
 
Grey Waves said:
@quozl made playoffs comfortably with a 3-1 record and is likely to go further
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