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Delta: latest updates and discussion
- Thread starter dok
- Start date
Some thoughts after some time army building and playing with the new point values:
- M-43 Resistance Fighters still too expensive. After they came out I remember reading debate about whether they were B- or C+. Not sure how their price has stayed the same in Delta; they have synergy with some good figures, but not strong enough synergy to be worth 65 points IMO.
- Raelin v1 is still too cheap. She could probably be 160 and still be worth taking in some armies. Raelin v2 might also be too cheap, but that's harder for me to evaluate.
- Einar Imperium probably still too expensive. Someone brought 3xEI + Krug + Atlaga to our Colorado event and went 1-3. That's not an optimal army for the EI, but they went down like paper against my Varks and against my 9yo's badly-played Romans, among other armies.
- Deepwyrm Drow seem very overpriced; they are not as good as WoA, who are much cheaper than them. 50 points seems right to me. 65 is way too high, though.
- M-43 Resistance Fighters still too expensive. After they came out I remember reading debate about whether they were B- or C+. Not sure how their price has stayed the same in Delta; they have synergy with some good figures, but not strong enough synergy to be worth 65 points IMO.
- Raelin v1 is still too cheap. She could probably be 160 and still be worth taking in some armies. Raelin v2 might also be too cheap, but that's harder for me to evaluate.
- Einar Imperium probably still too expensive. Someone brought 3xEI + Krug + Atlaga to our Colorado event and went 1-3. That's not an optimal army for the EI, but they went down like paper against my Varks and against my 9yo's badly-played Romans, among other armies.
- Deepwyrm Drow seem very overpriced; they are not as good as WoA, who are much cheaper than them. 50 points seems right to me. 65 is way too high, though.
I finished the task of adding Delta cost stickers to all my army card sleeves. As I was doing this, a few things stuck out to me.
DW9K has the same cost in both classic and VC deltas. This seems odd, given the synergy web he has in VC.
The Rogues faction got hit by Darrak's increase. Maybe lower some other heroes or make the Brigand cost 30.
I feel like Cal the Smuggler straight up outclasses Garrett Burns. Garrett could be lowered more, or vice versa.
DW9K has the same cost in both classic and VC deltas. This seems odd, given the synergy web he has in VC.
The Rogues faction got hit by Darrak's increase. Maybe lower some other heroes or make the Brigand cost 30.
I feel like Cal the Smuggler straight up outclasses Garrett Burns. Garrett could be lowered more, or vice versa.
I've talked with @dok about this some already and know that he disagrees with me, but I'm going to post anyway... I think the Elf Wizards are still too expensive. I know that they are good at this price point in high-point formats with figure limits... but my understanding of the point of Delta/Delta+ is to balance armies in a double-blind Bring the Cheese format. Balancing the Elf Wizards for that format is not changing the meta, either, since they're a coherent army and not just a mish-mash of unique heroes. Balancing outliers in arbitrary non double-blind bring-the-cheese formats is the job of tournament organizers, not Delta.
Here's another one I'm a little unsure of: Othkurik at 140 points. That's his original point value, and I've always thought he seemed a little overpriced. I can't remember the last time I saw him in a tournament army in any format. It seems like the ballpark of 125 is where people would consider putting him in an army.
Both vegie's dad and I played Othkurik in the ScapeCon main event with 2x Greenscales and a 3-3 finish (I had Tandros and Theracus too, he added 2x PKs and Kyntela). I think the current value is fine, especially with the recent GSW drop. Right now Othkurik, Moltenclaw, and Charos are at a delta of 0, with Mimring, Nilf, and Braxas higher (+15, +15, +5 respectively). I think MC is a little better value there, but you're probably choosing between him and Othkurik based on map pool and point total rather than delta pricing.
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GeneralRolando
Active member
Rip me
I definitely opted for a worse army just cuz I wanted to play krug. Shoulda brought the Empress. Haha. I just love the EI. Thought about marcus as well so I could have a bunch of 7 move double attackers but then my entire army would have basically been the 9 EI figures which would have been toppled just as quickly. Lol. Expect me to bring them to the event immediately following a point drop for EI. 
(My other loss was against Chris's knights, I fared pretty well being fast and flying but still lost leaving 5 knights behind if I remember correctly)
The_X_Marker
...lest we all lose that 3rd turn mystery
Fun fact: Delta pricing started because I needed to justify playing a certain list at 500.
For what I set out to do, this list should always end up at or under 500 points:
Venoc Warlord
3x Fyorlag Spiders
2x Wyvern
Estivara
With current prices as of October 2022, it is 490. With the initial price changes that I established, it was 495. If you brought this to any tournament at non Delta prices, it would do poorly. Which makes sense, the Spiders are weak and it's 13 models. But it has so many avenues for synergy, the bonding, the movement (to me, movement is the most important stat in the game), the attack bonus from Estivara. There are so many great choiced to be made with the list over the course of a round. So it has everything that a good list has, save the models. Lists that buff one stat are good. Lists that buff 2 stats are great. Lists that can do that and bond should be the lists that frequent the finals tables.
For what I set out to do, this list should always end up at or under 500 points:
Venoc Warlord
3x Fyorlag Spiders
2x Wyvern
Estivara
With current prices as of October 2022, it is 490. With the initial price changes that I established, it was 495. If you brought this to any tournament at non Delta prices, it would do poorly. Which makes sense, the Spiders are weak and it's 13 models. But it has so many avenues for synergy, the bonding, the movement (to me, movement is the most important stat in the game), the attack bonus from Estivara. There are so many great choiced to be made with the list over the course of a round. So it has everything that a good list has, save the models. Lists that buff one stat are good. Lists that buff 2 stats are great. Lists that can do that and bond should be the lists that frequent the finals tables.
Oh wow, a great background story to Delta — and great to know that its current pricing almost perfectly matches your original vision.
You must be glad that your baby has been so successful.
Knox
Active member
Agree, Othkurik is made more valuable by the price increase to other dragons
I couldn't help but notice that the figures showing up in the Finals of the OHS event are still primarily typical high-tier units:
I'll be very curious to see what changes with November's updates!
The only exception is Iskra and the Rechets, but with 5 squads of 10th Regiment, you can afford to have some "junk," and Iskra+Rechets aren't terrible.
I'll be very curious to see what changes with November's updates!
Knox
Active member
This is definitely something to monitor, but that may be due to high level players having more experience with traditionally strong units than it does with the new prices still being imbalanced. If all units are now equally priced, we would still expect traditionally powerful armies to be the strongest in the meta just because of the sheer number of games that have been played with them that has led to a better understanding of their optimal strategy.
After posting it also occurred to me that the Delta Cheese meta still seemed pretty similar to what we typically see. There weren't a lot of non traditional competitive armies in the mix, so it's not surprising that the ones that ended up in the finals were also pretty familiar.
I've been discussing this a lot in the Utah Monthly Tournament Discord, and @BiggaBullfrog suggested that I comment in here about it.
Obsidian Guards 75 -> 60
Why are the Obsidian Guards still so expensive? To compare to another terrain themed squad, the Dzu-Tah are better, and more consistent, and they are only 60. I don't see how they could be reasonably priced any higher than the Dzu-Teh. I've not seen anyone run them recently, and I've tried fitting them into armies, but even on purely lava maps, there's just better options for 75 points. Do we really think they are equivalent to Varkaanan Blade Dancers, Horned Skull Brutes, and Marro Stingers? How about the 65 point Roman Legionaries? Are they really better than them? Yeah they have better raw stats than Romans, but Romans have so much synergy, and an extra figure per squad to make up for that.
Obsidian Guards 75 -> 60
Why are the Obsidian Guards still so expensive? To compare to another terrain themed squad, the Dzu-Tah are better, and more consistent, and they are only 60. I don't see how they could be reasonably priced any higher than the Dzu-Teh. I've not seen anyone run them recently, and I've tried fitting them into armies, but even on purely lava maps, there's just better options for 75 points. Do we really think they are equivalent to Varkaanan Blade Dancers, Horned Skull Brutes, and Marro Stingers? How about the 65 point Roman Legionaries? Are they really better than them? Yeah they have better raw stats than Romans, but Romans have so much synergy, and an extra figure per squad to make up for that.
Manauvi and Arktos are both 100 points. It seems to me that Manauvi is still just a little overpriced (I don't think he's better than Crixus) and Arktos is possibly still a. Little underpriced. Either way it seems wrong that they have the same cost. It also seems wrong that Bahadur is still more expensive than Arktos.
I played Denrick with the knights recently. It still feels like there's rarely a reason to take him over most of the other champion options and he seems worse than Martial La Hire (who is in the ballpark of 50 points). Does Denrick become desirable for the Knights or Macdirks at 75 points? 65?
We’re pleased to announce the November update to the Delta Pricing system. There are 31 cards with price adjustments, plus we’ve added Delta prices for all the Marvel heroes.
You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and I imagine the builder on heroscape.org will be updated within a few days.
Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:
Good stuff is still really good, continued
Raelin could probably go to 150 and she would still see play. She will see play even when overpriced because she is often the most logical add due to universal synergy. The goal is not to make her overpriced, but 135 is not overpriced.
The Raelin bump hurts Nilf a good bit, but the whole package costing 25 more feels reasonable, honestly. With greenscales going down in the last update, and deservedly so, the best uniques need to bear more of the cost. The same goes for Quahon - I have a hard time justifying more than a 5 point gap between the best dragons, even with spiders nerfed in Delta VC.
The oops files, and/or faction reapportionments
Only a few cards (Deathcommander, Kiova, and Bahadur) are actually bouncing back towards their classic price, but in each case they are part of a larger reassessment of the faction. Kiova is taking a bit more of the price from the now-cheaper Imperium. Arktos has been the value hero pick for the Varks for a while, so we’re adjusting based on that. The Deathborg faction has remained weak in Delta, so we’re giving a discount, and that discount gets even steeper for 9k in classic, where his range boost is much less significant.
Make Mine Marvel!
The other 5 Marvel heroes enter Delta at their standard prices.
Metagame Beneficiaries
Cheaper Death Knights and a generally more leveled-out meta made Azazel too good of a value engine - he almost always came back once and that’s all it takes for him to earn his points. Warriors of Ashra benefit from less prevalent special attacks and a more melee-friendly meta.
Common Discount bin
The Kyrie squads (including the previously mentioned Einar Imperium) all take a small discount. Nottingham Brigands take a small discount due to underperforming. Obsidian Guards are still priced for their performance on VW maps but at 65 they are still probably conservatively priced. Swong Riders have been a consistent underperformer for a long time on modern maps and are probably overdue for a discount.
Unique discount bin
Skahen, Syvarris, and Nakitas all take a slight discount to put their prices more in line with the Krav/Airborne/Marro Warriors. The three most underperforming unique melee squads all take a price cut, with the NotNW’s cut only applying in classic when Kantono isn’t around. Parmenio is a fair bit worse in Delta where there’s no underpriced Raelin to discipline, and Migol suffers by comparison to the other Dwarf heroes. The rest are a series of smaller discounts (well, other than Dupuis’s) for some relatively weak standalone heroes.
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Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this
You can view the spreadsheet HERE, and I imagine the builder on heroscape.org will be updated within a few days.
Here’s a summary of the changes, broken down into some categories:
Good stuff is still really good, continued
Spoiler Alert!
Raelin could probably go to 150 and she would still see play. She will see play even when overpriced because she is often the most logical add due to universal synergy. The goal is not to make her overpriced, but 135 is not overpriced.
The Raelin bump hurts Nilf a good bit, but the whole package costing 25 more feels reasonable, honestly. With greenscales going down in the last update, and deservedly so, the best uniques need to bear more of the cost. The same goes for Quahon - I have a hard time justifying more than a 5 point gap between the best dragons, even with spiders nerfed in Delta VC.
The oops files, and/or faction reapportionments
Spoiler Alert!
Only a few cards (Deathcommander, Kiova, and Bahadur) are actually bouncing back towards their classic price, but in each case they are part of a larger reassessment of the faction. Kiova is taking a bit more of the price from the now-cheaper Imperium. Arktos has been the value hero pick for the Varks for a while, so we’re adjusting based on that. The Deathborg faction has remained weak in Delta, so we’re giving a discount, and that discount gets even steeper for 9k in classic, where his range boost is much less significant.
Make Mine Marvel!
Spoiler Alert!
The other 5 Marvel heroes enter Delta at their standard prices.
Metagame Beneficiaries
Spoiler Alert!
Cheaper Death Knights and a generally more leveled-out meta made Azazel too good of a value engine - he almost always came back once and that’s all it takes for him to earn his points. Warriors of Ashra benefit from less prevalent special attacks and a more melee-friendly meta.
Common Discount bin
Spoiler Alert!
The Kyrie squads (including the previously mentioned Einar Imperium) all take a small discount. Nottingham Brigands take a small discount due to underperforming. Obsidian Guards are still priced for their performance on VW maps but at 65 they are still probably conservatively priced. Swong Riders have been a consistent underperformer for a long time on modern maps and are probably overdue for a discount.
Unique discount bin
Spoiler Alert!
Skahen, Syvarris, and Nakitas all take a slight discount to put their prices more in line with the Krav/Airborne/Marro Warriors. The three most underperforming unique melee squads all take a price cut, with the NotNW’s cut only applying in classic when Kantono isn’t around. Parmenio is a fair bit worse in Delta where there’s no underpriced Raelin to discipline, and Migol suffers by comparison to the other Dwarf heroes. The rest are a series of smaller discounts (well, other than Dupuis’s) for some relatively weak standalone heroes.
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Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this
Grey Waves
Active member
Good changes! There's one in particular that I'm curious about though.
Could you provide a bit more explanation regarding this one? I am aware that death knights with Azazel won Season 48. However, I have no idea how Azazel actually performed in practice because @Dachshund never wrote a single battle report for any of his games. (Despite emerging as the champion). Was Azazel's performance really that strong to justify a 25 point increase?
Also, the last line of your post appears to be cut off; it just reads "Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this".
Could you provide a bit more explanation regarding this one? I am aware that death knights with Azazel won Season 48. However, I have no idea how Azazel actually performed in practice because @Dachshund never wrote a single battle report for any of his games. (Despite emerging as the champion). Was Azazel's performance really that strong to justify a 25 point increase?
Also, the last line of your post appears to be cut off; it just reads "Thanks to everyone who gives feedback; at this".
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I'd probably attribute 15 points of the increase to missing value at the previous point total & 10 points of the increase to the 'bad metagame' figure tax (a la Deadeye Dan). Basically some uber-high variance figures have gotten hit with that tax because them being 'equally viable' isn't super-great for the meta.
Thanos' initial rating is also somewhat reflective of that tax, fyi.