Oops, thanks for the spot. Fixed.
Well, I wasn't sure whether to list him there, since this is actually Ranjit's first appearance on the sheet. But I'll put it in there just for additional clarity.
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Delta: latest updates and discussion
- Thread starter dok
- Start date
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
FWIW, I interpret "updates" as updates to the entire list, rather than updates to a unit that was already on the list. Additions, deletions, corrections, or really any changes at all are important to know about for those of us who have other documents, projects, etc. that we need to keep in sync with the latest pricing. So I appreciate these efforts to get Ranjit on my radar.
I agree. Any or all changes should be reported.
NoLoveLost
New member
I've been trying to get back into Heroscape, and what you've done here has been phenomenal. Truly great work.
I did want to know your thoughts on this thread though (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=27657) , and the "agreed upon" changes listed there. When pricing these units, are any of these altered effects considered? Or are you still pricing based only on the original card text.
Sorry if this has already been asked and answered.
Hi.
Delta points are separate from the Competitive Unit Congress and intended to be used independently (i.e. with all original stats and powers listed on the cards).
NoLoveLost
New member
Thank you for the reply. Has there been any effort to adjust the points for the Marvel heroes? I'd love for some of them to make a comeback if they could avoid being so broken.
Just draft Braxas, right @ScapeCon? 
Here is fine! Or feel free to message me if you'd rather communicate privately.
UtahScott
Well-known member
@Chris Perkins, @dok, @vegietarian18 --
What's the main source for quarterly price adjustments? I'm assuming it's the Online HeroScape sessions since #41. Any others?
What's the main source for quarterly price adjustments? I'm assuming it's the Online HeroScape sessions since #41. Any others?
OHS seasons are certainly relevant.
We also have discussions on prices whenever someone suggests one (either of of us or a 3rd party), which influence a lot of the changes we make. Some of those suggestions come from live tournaments (ScapeCon, Louisville scene, etc.) and some are just theory scaped out.
The theory scape discussions are quite relevant though, as we have made (what we think are good) adjustments based on those throughout.
The Delta team is excited to announce a new online Army Builder that supports Delta pricing.
See this thread for more information.
See this thread for more information.
Grey Waves
Active member
I’ve been meaning to make this post for like, the last 2 weeks, but real life got in the way. I’ve got a few suggestions I’d like to make now that we’re post-Scapecon and OHS 48 is nearing its conclusion.
Marro Drones: 50 --> 55 points
There’s a reason why I suggested to Boromir that he run Drones x8, Raelin SOTM for his VC Delta army. Drones average 4.8 attacks of 3 per turn at 50 points a squad, which is significantly higher than the majority of other units can achieve for that price. The only really difficult matchups they have are against other 5+ attack per turn squads like the blades, monks or romans, but even then, if the drones have a hot d20, they can still easily crush each of these armies. A 5 point nerf will mean that the build will typically cost between 30-35 points more to run, which should be sufficient, especially since they’re only really viable in formats that have a figure limit > 18.
Blade Gruts: 50 --> 55 points
Boromir reckons that Necroblade’s Blades x4, Grimnak, Nerak, Kuthnak army was the net strongest army in the VC Delta event, and I’m inclined to agree. Being able to throw 3 attacks of (at least 2), chomp a unit, and have access to an additional whirlwind attack of 3 (sometimes 4!) all on the same turn is simply wonderful. I don’t think it’s just Kuthnak builds that are the issue though – according to Necroblade, the only game that he played where Kuthnak had a major impact was actually against Boromir (it’s very hard to deny 3+ whirlwind attacks when you have 23 squad figures). I think just in general, the combination of 4 attacks of 2+ plus chomp is a touch too good for a 50-point squad of 4 (even when you factor in Grimnak’s 135 point price tag), and a 5 point increase would help to make the army a touch fairer, particularly against opposing melee builds.
Martial La Hire: 50 --> 60 points
Not much to say here besides this guy is too cheap compared to the other filler options around his point value. 5/4 defences combined with a double attack of 4 is really good for 50 points, and currently I don’t see a reason to draft any of the other 50 point filler heroes instead of him except maybe Swaysil. 60 points puts him at the same cost as figures like Sam Brown and Cal, which feels about right.
Shadow Binder: 25 --> 20 points, Shadow Fiend: 35 --> 30 points, Shadow Hound: 35 --> 30 points
I played Shiftrex in Round 4 of the current OHS season, and I was shocked to discover that despite the very high point limit the season featured, he was only able to afford 12 shadows plus Xundar in his build. Shadows are not that good, even in delta, and something is clearly amiss when even at 555 points you can barely fit the equivalent of 4 copies of a 3-man common squad. Dropping the cost of each of the 3 shadows by 5 points would effectively allow players to include an extra 2-3 shadows in their armies, which seems a lot fairer overall considering the build’s several weaknesses.
And finally, for probably my most controversial nomination…
Nilfheim: 220 --> 200 points
Yes, I know that I’m proposing a 20 point cut to one of the most powerful figures in the game. At the same time however, not a single person brought Nilfheim to any of the delta OHS seasons or to either event at Scapecon. The thing that seems to have been overlooked is that Nilfheim’s 2 best support options, Greenscales and Raelin, have both gotten significantly more expensive in delta. Nilf, Greenscales x3, Raelin now costs 550 points, which means that if you want to run Nilfheim you only really have 3 different options. You can run Nilf + Greenscales with no Raelin, which is not very good, Nilf + Raelin but no Greenscales, which is better but then you only have about 160 points left for a secondary offensive option or a screen, or Nilf + a different common squad entirely, which is probably your best option. Even if you do decide to go for the latter option however, 220 points is still a very high amount to pay for a figure with 6/4 defensive stats (since you’re not running Raelin). I think that a 20 point price cut would make each of the 3 builds I mentioned (Nilfheim + Greenscales, Nilfheim + Raelin, or Nilfheim + a different common squad) a much more attractive option, while not significantly affecting the viability of Nilf + Greenscales + Raelin builds, since the army remains quite expensive even for delta pricing.
Marro Drones: 50 --> 55 points
There’s a reason why I suggested to Boromir that he run Drones x8, Raelin SOTM for his VC Delta army. Drones average 4.8 attacks of 3 per turn at 50 points a squad, which is significantly higher than the majority of other units can achieve for that price. The only really difficult matchups they have are against other 5+ attack per turn squads like the blades, monks or romans, but even then, if the drones have a hot d20, they can still easily crush each of these armies. A 5 point nerf will mean that the build will typically cost between 30-35 points more to run, which should be sufficient, especially since they’re only really viable in formats that have a figure limit > 18.
Blade Gruts: 50 --> 55 points
Boromir reckons that Necroblade’s Blades x4, Grimnak, Nerak, Kuthnak army was the net strongest army in the VC Delta event, and I’m inclined to agree. Being able to throw 3 attacks of (at least 2), chomp a unit, and have access to an additional whirlwind attack of 3 (sometimes 4!) all on the same turn is simply wonderful. I don’t think it’s just Kuthnak builds that are the issue though – according to Necroblade, the only game that he played where Kuthnak had a major impact was actually against Boromir (it’s very hard to deny 3+ whirlwind attacks when you have 23 squad figures). I think just in general, the combination of 4 attacks of 2+ plus chomp is a touch too good for a 50-point squad of 4 (even when you factor in Grimnak’s 135 point price tag), and a 5 point increase would help to make the army a touch fairer, particularly against opposing melee builds.
Martial La Hire: 50 --> 60 points
Not much to say here besides this guy is too cheap compared to the other filler options around his point value. 5/4 defences combined with a double attack of 4 is really good for 50 points, and currently I don’t see a reason to draft any of the other 50 point filler heroes instead of him except maybe Swaysil. 60 points puts him at the same cost as figures like Sam Brown and Cal, which feels about right.
Shadow Binder: 25 --> 20 points, Shadow Fiend: 35 --> 30 points, Shadow Hound: 35 --> 30 points
I played Shiftrex in Round 4 of the current OHS season, and I was shocked to discover that despite the very high point limit the season featured, he was only able to afford 12 shadows plus Xundar in his build. Shadows are not that good, even in delta, and something is clearly amiss when even at 555 points you can barely fit the equivalent of 4 copies of a 3-man common squad. Dropping the cost of each of the 3 shadows by 5 points would effectively allow players to include an extra 2-3 shadows in their armies, which seems a lot fairer overall considering the build’s several weaknesses.
And finally, for probably my most controversial nomination…
Nilfheim: 220 --> 200 points
Yes, I know that I’m proposing a 20 point cut to one of the most powerful figures in the game. At the same time however, not a single person brought Nilfheim to any of the delta OHS seasons or to either event at Scapecon. The thing that seems to have been overlooked is that Nilfheim’s 2 best support options, Greenscales and Raelin, have both gotten significantly more expensive in delta. Nilf, Greenscales x3, Raelin now costs 550 points, which means that if you want to run Nilfheim you only really have 3 different options. You can run Nilf + Greenscales with no Raelin, which is not very good, Nilf + Raelin but no Greenscales, which is better but then you only have about 160 points left for a secondary offensive option or a screen, or Nilf + a different common squad entirely, which is probably your best option. Even if you do decide to go for the latter option however, 220 points is still a very high amount to pay for a figure with 6/4 defensive stats (since you’re not running Raelin). I think that a 20 point price cut would make each of the 3 builds I mentioned (Nilfheim + Greenscales, Nilfheim + Raelin, or Nilfheim + a different common squad) a much more attractive option, while not significantly affecting the viability of Nilf + Greenscales + Raelin builds, since the army remains quite expensive even for delta pricing.
Thanks for the detailed suggestions & write-up @Grey Waves.
What I can say for now is:
1) A few of these are actually related to discussions we've already had for the next update
2) We'll definitely consider the others as well before the next update gets pushed
I'm gonna reserve individual commentary on each proposed change until after the next release goes out, but I'll try to remember to come back then and give my thoughts on each one.
What I can say for now is:
1) A few of these are actually related to discussions we've already had for the next update
2) We'll definitely consider the others as well before the next update gets pushed
I'm gonna reserve individual commentary on each proposed change until after the next release goes out, but I'll try to remember to come back then and give my thoughts on each one.
Hello everyone! We've decided to release the August update to the Delta prices. The spreadsheet links in the OP will be updated momentarily. In the mean time, here are some explanations of the changes:
The Oops files
Whew, that’s a lot of oopsies, but so it goes.
We made the elf wizards cheaper in the last update and it seems like we overshot the mark. While several discounts remain, Ulginesh and Jorhdawn (the two most core pieces to the build) return to their base prices.
Greenscale Warriors suffered in Delta from all the top tier dragons getting pushed up in cost (more on that below) along with their own cost getting pushed. They return closer to their base price.
Fen Hydra, Rachiem, Havech Eradicators, and Horned Skull Brutes all just got pushed a bit too far in price. For HSBs, Havechs, and Rachiem, they return to their original prices, while Fen Hydra just ticks down a notch.
As it turns out, Bol is actually a pretty perfect 10 point filler (props to @The Dewk) and doesn’t deserve to be 15 points just because Otonashi is bad. (And no, Otonashi doesn’t deserve to go down to 5 points… I think?)
Bonding cost redistribution, continued
Even with the previous price hikes, Grimnak and Gilbert are still so good that they were crowding out other options. They are still reasonable choices at 150. On the flip side, Tornak becomes an affordable option. The Wyvern is really hurt by the more expensive spiders in VC, so this balances that out somewhat.
Good stuff is good, continued
While the reasons vary, ultimately these figures had all continued to outperform their price point in Delta.
Summoner discounts
The two common hero builds have been underperforming in Delta. However, these builds (especially Xundar, due to his ability to move and command) have meaningful versatility advantages, and too great a discount to any of the primary damage-dealing common heroes could lead to a build that scales too well at high point totals. So instead, with the exception of the Shadow Binder (which is fairly explicitly a support hero), we are concentrating the discounts on the unique heroes themselves. This should allow each build roughly one extra hero figure to work with at most point totals.
Less good stuff is… less good
The ninjas are fine with Kantono around but still a bit overpriced without him. Ana, Concan, and Tandros are joining the hero discount bin. Several of the lesser-used unique squads are also getting discounts, including the Zettian Guards now becoming one of the cheaper ranged filler options. The Dumutef Guard takes Bol’s place at 15 points, and will probably be a pretty attractive bonding option for Death Knights, particularly in Delta Classic where Skull Demons, Darkprowl Thralls, and Azazel are unavailable.
A final note: Clayton Pierce and Kate Crawford enter Delta VC at their standard prices.
The Oops files
Spoiler Alert!
Whew, that’s a lot of oopsies, but so it goes.
We made the elf wizards cheaper in the last update and it seems like we overshot the mark. While several discounts remain, Ulginesh and Jorhdawn (the two most core pieces to the build) return to their base prices.
Greenscale Warriors suffered in Delta from all the top tier dragons getting pushed up in cost (more on that below) along with their own cost getting pushed. They return closer to their base price.
Fen Hydra, Rachiem, Havech Eradicators, and Horned Skull Brutes all just got pushed a bit too far in price. For HSBs, Havechs, and Rachiem, they return to their original prices, while Fen Hydra just ticks down a notch.
As it turns out, Bol is actually a pretty perfect 10 point filler (props to @The Dewk) and doesn’t deserve to be 15 points just because Otonashi is bad. (And no, Otonashi doesn’t deserve to go down to 5 points… I think?)
Bonding cost redistribution, continued
Spoiler Alert!
Even with the previous price hikes, Grimnak and Gilbert are still so good that they were crowding out other options. They are still reasonable choices at 150. On the flip side, Tornak becomes an affordable option. The Wyvern is really hurt by the more expensive spiders in VC, so this balances that out somewhat.
Good stuff is good, continued
Spoiler Alert!
While the reasons vary, ultimately these figures had all continued to outperform their price point in Delta.
Summoner discounts
Spoiler Alert!
The two common hero builds have been underperforming in Delta. However, these builds (especially Xundar, due to his ability to move and command) have meaningful versatility advantages, and too great a discount to any of the primary damage-dealing common heroes could lead to a build that scales too well at high point totals. So instead, with the exception of the Shadow Binder (which is fairly explicitly a support hero), we are concentrating the discounts on the unique heroes themselves. This should allow each build roughly one extra hero figure to work with at most point totals.
Less good stuff is… less good
Spoiler Alert!
The ninjas are fine with Kantono around but still a bit overpriced without him. Ana, Concan, and Tandros are joining the hero discount bin. Several of the lesser-used unique squads are also getting discounts, including the Zettian Guards now becoming one of the cheaper ranged filler options. The Dumutef Guard takes Bol’s place at 15 points, and will probably be a pretty attractive bonding option for Death Knights, particularly in Delta Classic where Skull Demons, Darkprowl Thralls, and Azazel are unavailable.
A final note: Clayton Pierce and Kate Crawford enter Delta VC at their standard prices.
Some individual thoughts, as promised.
Not much to say here except we agreed with you; thanks for suggesting this one. I was one of the casualties of Boromir's Drones x8, Raelin [SotM] army at ScapeCon II. Just wish we did this one last update
As dok discussed in his post, we had already decided to bump Grimnak instead of the Blades. Basically, we wanted to try and allow for non-Grimnak versions of the army to be relatively comparable / viable, hence the Tornak decrease as well.
On this one, we just disagree. Martial has strong base stats, but a single attacking mele hero just has so much intrinsic limitations. Also, having your army be 50 points light just to fit him end for an end-game role (hoping he isn't facing a ranged squad) is pretty risky to begin with, so I just don't think he's super viable unless you just REALLY want to play something that's naturally 50 points light. And I'm ok with him getting included in that scenario.
We ended up bumping Xundar down instead to create a more consistent bump to the shadow army (i.e. your bump makes them way stronger at 600 points, but not much stronger at 400 points, whereas the Xundar change just lets them get basically 1 more shadow at any point level). This change and the semi-corresponding Kurrok change were spurred by your post, so thanks for starting that discussion.
This was another one where we had already made a corresponding change; Greenscale Warriors down to 65. I like that move better because it lets some of the other Dragons be a little more viable while also making the top-tier Nilf army a little more affordable. This alternative change does make running Nilf without GWs harder, but that ended up being a trade-off with making other Dragons more viable instead.
Those are my case-by-case thoughts, at least.
Not much to say here except we agreed with you; thanks for suggesting this one. I was one of the casualties of Boromir's Drones x8, Raelin [SotM] army at ScapeCon II. Just wish we did this one last update
As dok discussed in his post, we had already decided to bump Grimnak instead of the Blades. Basically, we wanted to try and allow for non-Grimnak versions of the army to be relatively comparable / viable, hence the Tornak decrease as well.
On this one, we just disagree. Martial has strong base stats, but a single attacking mele hero just has so much intrinsic limitations. Also, having your army be 50 points light just to fit him end for an end-game role (hoping he isn't facing a ranged squad) is pretty risky to begin with, so I just don't think he's super viable unless you just REALLY want to play something that's naturally 50 points light. And I'm ok with him getting included in that scenario.
We ended up bumping Xundar down instead to create a more consistent bump to the shadow army (i.e. your bump makes them way stronger at 600 points, but not much stronger at 400 points, whereas the Xundar change just lets them get basically 1 more shadow at any point level). This change and the semi-corresponding Kurrok change were spurred by your post, so thanks for starting that discussion.
This was another one where we had already made a corresponding change; Greenscale Warriors down to 65. I like that move better because it lets some of the other Dragons be a little more viable while also making the top-tier Nilf army a little more affordable. This alternative change does make running Nilf without GWs harder, but that ended up being a trade-off with making other Dragons more viable instead.
Those are my case-by-case thoughts, at least.
The goal is to drop an update every 4 months, but yes, we haven't hit that schedule perfectly. Hitting each 4 months is still the ideal goal though.
There are a few reasons we might deviate though, 2 of which are:
1) Proximity to a major tournament (i.e. ScapeCon). We'd ideally not drop new points within a month or so before such a tourney.
2) Number of pending releases. If we have a ton of pending changes, it can make sense to drop a little early to avoid any one update being too overwhelming.
I was trying to remember after I posted what my army was like. I think I was trying to capitalize on "market inefficiencies" if units I thought were undervalued and trying to capitalize on synergy between them. I hadn't thought through role, OM usage, etc. yet but I remember having Tarns and Nakitas... So not quite just a grab bag of heroes like I initially said, but an army that is challenging to play. I'm going to have to play with it some more and see what I come up with. I know I like a meta where someone can construct a primarily Unique figure (or even primarily Unique Hero) army and be competitive. Figure activation does make that difficult.