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Delta: latest updates and discussion

UtahScott said:
@Chris Perkins, @dok, @vegietarian18 --


What's the main source for quarterly price adjustments? I'm assuming it's the Online HeroScape sessions since #41. Any others?
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OHS seasons are certainly relevant.

We also have discussions on prices whenever someone suggests one (either of of us or a 3rd party), which influence a lot of the changes we make. Some of those suggestions come from live tournaments (ScapeCon, Louisville scene, etc.) and some are just theory scaped out.

The theory scape discussions are quite relevant though, as we have made (what we think are good) adjustments based on those throughout.
 
I’ve been meaning to make this post for like, the last 2 weeks, but real life got in the way. I’ve got a few suggestions I’d like to make now that we’re post-Scapecon and OHS 48 is nearing its conclusion.

Marro Drones: 50 --> 55 points

There’s a reason why I suggested to Boromir that he run Drones x8, Raelin SOTM for his VC Delta army. Drones average 4.8 attacks of 3 per turn at 50 points a squad, which is significantly higher than the majority of other units can achieve for that price. The only really difficult matchups they have are against other 5+ attack per turn squads like the blades, monks or romans, but even then, if the drones have a hot d20, they can still easily crush each of these armies. A 5 point nerf will mean that the build will typically cost between 30-35 points more to run, which should be sufficient, especially since they’re only really viable in formats that have a figure limit > 18.


Blade Gruts: 50 --> 55 points

Boromir reckons that Necroblade’s Blades x4, Grimnak, Nerak, Kuthnak army was the net strongest army in the VC Delta event, and I’m inclined to agree. Being able to throw 3 attacks of (at least 2), chomp a unit, and have access to an additional whirlwind attack of 3 (sometimes 4!) all on the same turn is simply wonderful. I don’t think it’s just Kuthnak builds that are the issue though – according to Necroblade, the only game that he played where Kuthnak had a major impact was actually against Boromir (it’s very hard to deny 3+ whirlwind attacks when you have 23 squad figures). I think just in general, the combination of 4 attacks of 2+ plus chomp is a touch too good for a 50-point squad of 4 (even when you factor in Grimnak’s 135 point price tag), and a 5 point increase would help to make the army a touch fairer, particularly against opposing melee builds.


Martial La Hire: 50 --> 60 points

Not much to say here besides this guy is too cheap compared to the other filler options around his point value. 5/4 defences combined with a double attack of 4 is really good for 50 points, and currently I don’t see a reason to draft any of the other 50 point filler heroes instead of him except maybe Swaysil. 60 points puts him at the same cost as figures like Sam Brown and Cal, which feels about right.


Shadow Binder: 25 --> 20 points, Shadow Fiend: 35 --> 30 points, Shadow Hound: 35 --> 30 points

I played Shiftrex in Round 4 of the current OHS season, and I was shocked to discover that despite the very high point limit the season featured, he was only able to afford 12 shadows plus Xundar in his build. Shadows are not that good, even in delta, and something is clearly amiss when even at 555 points you can barely fit the equivalent of 4 copies of a 3-man common squad. Dropping the cost of each of the 3 shadows by 5 points would effectively allow players to include an extra 2-3 shadows in their armies, which seems a lot fairer overall considering the build’s several weaknesses.

And finally, for probably my most controversial nomination…


Nilfheim: 220 --> 200 points

Yes, I know that I’m proposing a 20 point cut to one of the most powerful figures in the game. At the same time however, not a single person brought Nilfheim to any of the delta OHS seasons or to either event at Scapecon. The thing that seems to have been overlooked is that Nilfheim’s 2 best support options, Greenscales and Raelin, have both gotten significantly more expensive in delta. Nilf, Greenscales x3, Raelin now costs 550 points, which means that if you want to run Nilfheim you only really have 3 different options. You can run Nilf + Greenscales with no Raelin, which is not very good, Nilf + Raelin but no Greenscales, which is better but then you only have about 160 points left for a secondary offensive option or a screen, or Nilf + a different common squad entirely, which is probably your best option. Even if you do decide to go for the latter option however, 220 points is still a very high amount to pay for a figure with 6/4 defensive stats (since you’re not running Raelin). I think that a 20 point price cut would make each of the 3 builds I mentioned (Nilfheim + Greenscales, Nilfheim + Raelin, or Nilfheim + a different common squad) a much more attractive option, while not significantly affecting the viability of Nilf + Greenscales + Raelin builds, since the army remains quite expensive even for delta pricing.
 
Thanks for the detailed suggestions & write-up @Grey Waves.

What I can say for now is:
1) A few of these are actually related to discussions we've already had for the next update
2) We'll definitely consider the others as well before the next update gets pushed

I'm gonna reserve individual commentary on each proposed change until after the next release goes out, but I'll try to remember to come back then and give my thoughts on each one.
 
Hello everyone! We've decided to release the August update to the Delta prices. The spreadsheet links in the OP will be updated momentarily. In the mean time, here are some explanations of the changes:

The Oops files
Spoiler Alert!

Whew, that’s a lot of oopsies, but so it goes.

We made the elf wizards cheaper in the last update and it seems like we overshot the mark. While several discounts remain, Ulginesh and Jorhdawn (the two most core pieces to the build) return to their base prices.

Greenscale Warriors suffered in Delta from all the top tier dragons getting pushed up in cost (more on that below) along with their own cost getting pushed. They return closer to their base price.

Fen Hydra, Rachiem, Havech Eradicators, and Horned Skull Brutes all just got pushed a bit too far in price. For HSBs, Havechs, and Rachiem, they return to their original prices, while Fen Hydra just ticks down a notch.

As it turns out, Bol is actually a pretty perfect 10 point filler (props to @The Dewk) and doesn’t deserve to be 15 points just because Otonashi is bad. (And no, Otonashi doesn’t deserve to go down to 5 points… I think?)

Bonding cost redistribution, continued
Spoiler Alert!

Even with the previous price hikes, Grimnak and Gilbert are still so good that they were crowding out other options. They are still reasonable choices at 150. On the flip side, Tornak becomes an affordable option. The Wyvern is really hurt by the more expensive spiders in VC, so this balances that out somewhat.

Good stuff is good, continued
Spoiler Alert!

While the reasons vary, ultimately these figures had all continued to outperform their price point in Delta.

Summoner discounts
Spoiler Alert!

The two common hero builds have been underperforming in Delta. However, these builds (especially Xundar, due to his ability to move and command) have meaningful versatility advantages, and too great a discount to any of the primary damage-dealing common heroes could lead to a build that scales too well at high point totals. So instead, with the exception of the Shadow Binder (which is fairly explicitly a support hero), we are concentrating the discounts on the unique heroes themselves. This should allow each build roughly one extra hero figure to work with at most point totals.

Less good stuff is… less good
Spoiler Alert!


The ninjas are fine with Kantono around but still a bit overpriced without him. Ana, Concan, and Tandros are joining the hero discount bin. Several of the lesser-used unique squads are also getting discounts, including the Zettian Guards now becoming one of the cheaper ranged filler options. The Dumutef Guard takes Bol’s place at 15 points, and will probably be a pretty attractive bonding option for Death Knights, particularly in Delta Classic where Skull Demons, Darkprowl Thralls, and Azazel are unavailable.

A final note: Clayton Pierce and Kate Crawford enter Delta VC at their standard prices.
 
Some individual thoughts, as promised.

Grey Waves said:
Marro Drones: 50 --> 55 points
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Not much to say here except we agreed with you; thanks for suggesting this one. I was one of the casualties of Boromir's Drones x8, Raelin [SotM] army at ScapeCon II. Just wish we did this one last update :)

Grey Waves said:
Blade Gruts: 50 --> 55 points
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As dok discussed in his post, we had already decided to bump Grimnak instead of the Blades. Basically, we wanted to try and allow for non-Grimnak versions of the army to be relatively comparable / viable, hence the Tornak decrease as well.

Grey Waves said:
Martial La Hire: 50 --> 60 points
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On this one, we just disagree. Martial has strong base stats, but a single attacking mele hero just has so much intrinsic limitations. Also, having your army be 50 points light just to fit him end for an end-game role (hoping he isn't facing a ranged squad) is pretty risky to begin with, so I just don't think he's super viable unless you just REALLY want to play something that's naturally 50 points light. And I'm ok with him getting included in that scenario.

Grey Waves said:
Shadow Binder: 25 --> 20 points, Shadow Fiend: 35 --> 30 points, Shadow Hound: 35 --> 30 points
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We ended up bumping Xundar down instead to create a more consistent bump to the shadow army (i.e. your bump makes them way stronger at 600 points, but not much stronger at 400 points, whereas the Xundar change just lets them get basically 1 more shadow at any point level). This change and the semi-corresponding Kurrok change were spurred by your post, so thanks for starting that discussion.

Grey Waves said:
Nilfheim: 220 --> 200 points
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This was another one where we had already made a corresponding change; Greenscale Warriors down to 65. I like that move better because it lets some of the other Dragons be a little more viable while also making the top-tier Nilf army a little more affordable. This alternative change does make running Nilf without GWs harder, but that ended up being a trade-off with making other Dragons more viable instead.

Those are my case-by-case thoughts, at least.
 
Still dipping my toes in Delta. Help me know when updates should drop so I know when to expect an update. The OP says every four months, so December, April, August? But April's update was in fact June?
 
UtahScott said:
Still dipping my toes in Delta. Help me know when updates should drop so I know when to expect an update. The OP says every four months, so December, April, August? But April's update was in fact June?
Click to expand...

The goal is to drop an update every 4 months, but yes, we haven't hit that schedule perfectly. Hitting each 4 months is still the ideal goal though.

There are a few reasons we might deviate though, 2 of which are:
1) Proximity to a major tournament (i.e. ScapeCon). We'd ideally not drop new points within a month or so before such a tourney.
2) Number of pending releases. If we have a ton of pending changes, it can make sense to drop a little early to avoid any one update being too overwhelming.
 
Makes sense. If you start counting from the beginning of the year, that's enough lead time to give a few months before ScapeCon--and you could update everything after people recover from GenCon. Thanks for the extra info.
 
dok said:
capsocrates said:
After looking at these armies I'm still not convinced Raelin's points are high enough... Or that the lower tier figures are cheap enough yet. To be fair, it matters a lot more what the winning armies have at the end of the event than it does what people played with.

My grab-bag-of-heroes army would have been toast, I can tell you that, haha.
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While I'm not saying you're wrong that RotV Raelin needs to cost more or some standalone uniques need to cost less, I will also say that the goal of Delta is not to make a "grab bag army of heroes" able to compete with a carefully built synergy army. We're not trying to eliminate the craft of army construction, we're just trying to make the range of strong armies much more broad.
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I was trying to remember after I posted what my army was like. I think I was trying to capitalize on "market inefficiencies" if units I thought were undervalued and trying to capitalize on synergy between them. I hadn't thought through role, OM usage, etc. yet but I remember having Tarns and Nakitas... So not quite just a grab bag of heroes like I initially said, but an army that is challenging to play. I'm going to have to play with it some more and see what I come up with. I know I like a meta where someone can construct a primarily Unique figure (or even primarily Unique Hero) army and be competitive. Figure activation does make that difficult.
 
Some thoughts after some time army building and playing with the new point values:

- M-43 Resistance Fighters still too expensive. After they came out I remember reading debate about whether they were B- or C+. Not sure how their price has stayed the same in Delta; they have synergy with some good figures, but not strong enough synergy to be worth 65 points IMO.
- Raelin v1 is still too cheap. She could probably be 160 and still be worth taking in some armies. Raelin v2 might also be too cheap, but that's harder for me to evaluate.
- Einar Imperium probably still too expensive. Someone brought 3xEI + Krug + Atlaga to our Colorado event and went 1-3. That's not an optimal army for the EI, but they went down like paper against my Varks and against my 9yo's badly-played Romans, among other armies.
- Deepwyrm Drow seem very overpriced; they are not as good as WoA, who are much cheaper than them. 50 points seems right to me. 65 is way too high, though.
 
I finished the task of adding Delta cost stickers to all my army card sleeves. As I was doing this, a few things stuck out to me.


DW9K has the same cost in both classic and VC deltas. This seems odd, given the synergy web he has in VC.

The Rogues faction got hit by Darrak's increase. Maybe lower some other heroes or make the Brigand cost 30.

I feel like Cal the Smuggler straight up outclasses Garrett Burns. Garrett could be lowered more, or vice versa.
 
I've talked with @dok about this some already and know that he disagrees with me, but I'm going to post anyway... I think the Elf Wizards are still too expensive. I know that they are good at this price point in high-point formats with figure limits... but my understanding of the point of Delta/Delta+ is to balance armies in a double-blind Bring the Cheese format. Balancing the Elf Wizards for that format is not changing the meta, either, since they're a coherent army and not just a mish-mash of unique heroes. Balancing outliers in arbitrary non double-blind bring-the-cheese formats is the job of tournament organizers, not Delta.
 
Here's another one I'm a little unsure of: Othkurik at 140 points. That's his original point value, and I've always thought he seemed a little overpriced. I can't remember the last time I saw him in a tournament army in any format. It seems like the ballpark of 125 is where people would consider putting him in an army.
 
capsocrates said:
Here's another one I'm a little unsure of: Othkurik at 140 points. That's his original point value, and I've always thought he seemed a little overpriced. I can't remember the last time I saw him in a tournament army in any format. It seems like the ballpark of 125 is where people would consider putting him in an army.
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Both vegie's dad and I played Othkurik in the ScapeCon main event with 2x Greenscales and a 3-3 finish (I had Tandros and Theracus too, he added 2x PKs and Kyntela). I think the current value is fine, especially with the recent GSW drop. Right now Othkurik, Moltenclaw, and Charos are at a delta of 0, with Mimring, Nilf, and Braxas higher (+15, +15, +5 respectively). I think MC is a little better value there, but you're probably choosing between him and Othkurik based on map pool and point total rather than delta pricing.
 
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capsocrates said:
- Einar Imperium probably still too expensive. Someone brought 3xEI + Krug + Atlaga to our Colorado event and went 1-3. That's not an optimal army for the EI, but they went down like paper against my Varks and against my 9yo's badly-played Romans, among other armies.
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Rip me :lol: I definitely opted for a worse army just cuz I wanted to play krug. Shoulda brought the Empress. Haha. I just love the EI. Thought about marcus as well so I could have a bunch of 7 move double attackers but then my entire army would have basically been the 9 EI figures which would have been toppled just as quickly. Lol. Expect me to bring them to the event immediately following a point drop for EI. :) (My other loss was against Chris's knights, I fared pretty well being fast and flying but still lost leaving 5 knights behind if I remember correctly)
 
Fun fact: Delta pricing started because I needed to justify playing a certain list at 500.

For what I set out to do, this list should always end up at or under 500 points:
Venoc Warlord
3x Fyorlag Spiders
2x Wyvern
Estivara

With current prices as of October 2022, it is 490. With the initial price changes that I established, it was 495. If you brought this to any tournament at non Delta prices, it would do poorly. Which makes sense, the Spiders are weak and it's 13 models. But it has so many avenues for synergy, the bonding, the movement (to me, movement is the most important stat in the game), the attack bonus from Estivara. There are so many great choiced to be made with the list over the course of a round. So it has everything that a good list has, save the models. Lists that buff one stat are good. Lists that buff 2 stats are great. Lists that can do that and bond should be the lists that frequent the finals tables.
 
The_X_Marker said:
Fun fact: Delta pricing started because I needed to justify playing a certain list at 500.

For what I set out to do, this list should always end up at or under 500 points:
Venoc Warlord
3x Fyorlag Spiders
2x Wyvern
Estivara

With current prices as of October 2022, it is 490. With the initial price changes that I established, it was 495. If you brought this to any tournament at non Delta prices, it would do poorly. Which makes sense, the Spiders are weak and it's 13 models. But it has so many avenues for synergy, the bonding, the movement (to me, movement is the most important stat in the game), the attack bonus from Estivara. There are so many great choiced to be made with the list over the course of a round. So it has everything that a good list has, save the models. Lists that buff one stat are good. Lists that buff 2 stats are great. Lists that can do that and bond should be the lists that frequent the finals tables.
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Oh wow, a great background story to Delta — and great to know that its current pricing almost perfectly matches your original vision.

You must be glad that your baby has been so successful. :toast:
 
S1R_ART0R1US said:
capsocrates said:
Here's another one I'm a little unsure of: Othkurik at 140 points. That's his original point value, and I've always thought he seemed a little overpriced. I can't remember the last time I saw him in a tournament army in any format. It seems like the ballpark of 125 is where people would consider putting him in an army.
Click to expand...

Both vegie's dad and I played Othkurik in the ScapeCon main event with 2x Greenscales and a 3-3 finish (I had Tandros and Theracus too, he added 2x PKs and Kyntela). I think the current value is fine, especially with the recent GSW drop. Right now Othkurik, Moltenclaw, and Charos are at a delta of 0, with Mimring, Nilf, and Braxas higher (+15, +15, +5 respectively). I think MC is a little better value there, but you're probably choosing between him and Othkurik based on map pool and point total rather than delta pricing.
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Agree, Othkurik is made more valuable by the price increase to other dragons
 
I couldn't help but notice that the figures showing up in the Finals of the OHS event are still primarily typical high-tier units:
Dysole said:
The Finals are on Platypus.

The kevindola (5-1) v. kinseth (5-1) armies are:
10th Rechet
* Iskra Esenwein, Rechets of Bogdan, 10th Regiment of Footx5
Return of the King
* Isamu, Nilfheim, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [RotV], Greenscale Warriorsx3

​
kinseth chooses to place the first army bid or defer. kevindola chooses who places first.

~Dysole, pushing us off
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The only exception is Iskra and the Rechets, but with 5 squads of 10th Regiment, you can afford to have some "junk," and Iskra+Rechets aren't terrible.

I'll be very curious to see what changes with November's updates!
 
caps said:
I couldn't help but notice that the figures showing up in the Finals of the OHS event are still primarily typical high-tier units:
Dysole said:
The Finals are on Platypus.

The kevindola (5-1) v. kinseth (5-1) armies are:
10th Rechet
* Iskra Esenwein, Rechets of Bogdan, 10th Regiment of Footx5
Return of the King
* Isamu, Nilfheim, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [RotV], Greenscale Warriorsx3

​
kinseth chooses to place the first army bid or defer. kevindola chooses who places first.

~Dysole, pushing us off
Click to expand...
The only exception is Iskra and the Rechets, but with 5 squads of 10th Regiment, you can afford to have some "junk," and Iskra+Rechets aren't terrible.

I'll be very curious to see what changes with November's updates!
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This is definitely something to monitor, but that may be due to high level players having more experience with traditionally strong units than it does with the new prices still being imbalanced. If all units are now equally priced, we would still expect traditionally powerful armies to be the strongest in the meta just because of the sheer number of games that have been played with them that has led to a better understanding of their optimal strategy.
 
After posting it also occurred to me that the Delta Cheese meta still seemed pretty similar to what we typically see. There weren't a lot of non traditional competitive armies in the mix, so it's not surprising that the ones that ended up in the finals were also pretty familiar.
 
I've been discussing this a lot in the Utah Monthly Tournament Discord, and @BiggaBullfrog suggested that I comment in here about it.

Obsidian Guards 75 -> 60
Why are the Obsidian Guards still so expensive? To compare to another terrain themed squad, the Dzu-Tah are better, and more consistent, and they are only 60. I don't see how they could be reasonably priced any higher than the Dzu-Teh. I've not seen anyone run them recently, and I've tried fitting them into armies, but even on purely lava maps, there's just better options for 75 points. Do we really think they are equivalent to Varkaanan Blade Dancers, Horned Skull Brutes, and Marro Stingers? How about the 65 point Roman Legionaries? Are they really better than them? Yeah they have better raw stats than Romans, but Romans have so much synergy, and an extra figure per squad to make up for that.
 
Manauvi and Arktos are both 100 points. It seems to me that Manauvi is still just a little overpriced (I don't think he's better than Crixus) and Arktos is possibly still a. Little underpriced. Either way it seems wrong that they have the same cost. It also seems wrong that Bahadur is still more expensive than Arktos.
 
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