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Delta: latest updates and discussion

dok

dok

GenCon Main Event Champion - 2010, 2011, & 2017
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DELTA ARMY BUILDER

Delta is an alternative cost system for Heroscape. It reprices most Heroscape cards, with the goal of putting them on roughly equal competitive footing with each other in 400-600 point games on standard tournament maps.

Below are the latest Delta prices. Remember, "Delta VC" includes C3V and SoV units, while "Delta Classic" does not. Unique figures are in separate tabs from common/uncommons. In each tab the first column lists units alphabetically, the second lists them in order of price, and the third lists them in order of the discount/premium that you pay relative to the printed value.

These costs were last updated in August 2024.


You can use the Delta Army Builder to workshop armies in Delta.

You can also view the spreadsheets directly HERE. If you make a copy of that spreadsheet (File->Make a Copy) you will be able to use the builder to create armies in Delta.

The sheet also contains a tab showing all the adjustments from the previous version.
 
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Re: Delta/Delta++: latest updates and discussion

The project was started by The_X_Marker in 2012, before being revived in 2021. TXM's project was itself an extension of Cornpuff's Legacy system.

The current Delta committee consists of Chris Perkins, dok, and vegietarian18.

The purpose of this thread is for discussion of the Delta point totals, games involving these point totals, and possible updates. After an update is issued, the prices will remain stable for the next 4 months, after which we may issue a new version. We will discuss any issues raised here internally, and will make all changes by majority vote.

Thank you for your interest in the system.
 
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After some discussions about how the previous naming system was a bit confusing, we decided to re-brand things slightly.

Delta is the name for the entire project.
Delta Classic is the name for the costs that only include classic figures (was "Delta")
Delta VC is the name for the costs that include both classic figures and VC figures (was "Delta+" or "Delta++" depending on where you looked)

Hopefully this will make it easier to understand which system is for what.

As far as the latest updates, briefly, we did a few things:

  • Continued to push down the price of some of the more overcosted heroes
  • Scaled back some of the price increases that were not really called for based on tournament results
  • Pushed the prices of the most abusable commons a bit more
  • Tried to think clearly about how the costs should be split between bonding heroes and bonding squad in different systems and price both appropriately
  • Slightly push the price of some of the highest-variance figures in the game, as it's probably not healthy for the metagame if these are the most efficient units.

Please let us know what you think, and especially let us know if you use Delta pricing in events or home games, and what results you get.
 
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Very cool. A 10-minute scan of points and I am digging it. Well done.
 
I really enjoyed this format while it was being run in OHS Season 41 and I think most of the changes made after the event have been on point. I do have a couple of nominations I'd like to make, however.

Ashigaru Harquebus 55 → 65 points

These guys are way, way too cheap at their current point value, even though you pretty much have to run ROTV Raelin with them. At 55 points a squad, they are insanely undercosted compared to the other 4-man ranged commons - 5 squads of 4th Mass costs 525 points, 4 squads of Microcorp Troopers/10th Reg + Raelin is 495, and yet 5 squads of Harquebus with Raelin only costs 390 points. Obviously the Harquebus aren't nearly as good as these other squads, due to being limited to Raelin's aura and having none of the 10th or Microcorp's other perks (e.g. Melee Defense 1). However, being able to run 5 squads of discount 4th Mass and still having room for a heavy hitter like J15, Alastair or Eltahale (depending on the point limit) is still far too strong for the meta. A 10 point price increase would put 5 squads of Harquebus + Raelin at 440 points, a much more comparable cost to the other 4-man ranged common squads.

Arkmer 50 → 55 points

Before Haduc came along, Arkmer was universally considered to be the strongest Elf Wizard for his points. (Well, aside from Ulginesh, but that's a completely separate debate). Base 4 attack at 5 range is excellent, particularly during the mid-endgame when you're down a couple of elves and Jorhdawn's and Chardris' specials have lost power. Engagement Strike is also incredibly helpful into melee armies - a 40% activation rate is no joke (45% with Haduc). Add to that his above-average survivability when adjacent to a bunch of other elves and you have a figure that's well worth a 5 point increase imo.

Haduc 105 → 110 points

Haduc is the second linchpin of the Elf Wizard build and I feel the amount of value that he provides for that army is not fully recognised by his current point cost. It cannot be overstated how game-changing the one automatic shield is - not only because it buffs the other elves’ defences, but also because it draws opposing attacks away from your damage-dealing elves and onto Haduc himself. Haduc also significantly improves the viability of the Aubrien Archers, which, whilst still not the most competitively-relevant army, is worth factoring in his point value imo. A small increase in his cost would better reflect his worth in both builds, whilst only being a small nerf to those armies overall.

Warden 816 85 → 80 points

Evisceraxe special attack, base attack of 3 at 7 range and 6 defence are all nice, but I feel that the Warden's survivability is too low for him to be worth 85 points, especially considering that the stronger ranged units that do well against the Warden in the endgame (e.g. Kaemon, B11s etc.) are the same things that do well against guard builds in general. He’s not a bad cheerleader by any means but he’s not super great either.


There were a couple of other changes I considered suggesting (I think the Granites may be too expensive even at 90 and I'm not convinced that Spartacus is still worth 200 points), but I'd need to do some more test games to properly back those nominations up.

~ Grey Waves, hoping this sparks discussion on other units’ point values too
 
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Out of curiosity, I was looking for why the Marvel heroes weren't included and read that they add too much complexity to the overall calculations and not many people used them when referring to this system. Is that the general consensus?
 
randum said:
Out of curiosity, I was looking for why the Marvel heroes weren't included and read that they add too much complexity to the overall calculations and not many people used them when referring to this system. Is that the general consensus?
Click to expand...

I'd say 2 main things:
1) Very few tournaments allow Marvel figs
2) Captain America raises the value of certain other units (more than most marvel does)

That combo means inclusion of marvel would change other units points in a way that most tournaments wouldn't use, hurting the points for most tournaments without much gain.
 
Thank you for providing this! I'm looking forward to trying it out.

I noticed that Pelloth's original cost is listed at 110, should be 100.
 
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Sir Heroscape said:
I quite liked this format at ScapeCon...though I discovered that 40pt Roman Archers are just as bad as 55pt Roman Archers :smile:
Click to expand...

One of the big problems that I had when I started the format was that some squads and heroes were so bad that they wouldn't even be worth filler points over other options to fill starting spaces. Roman Archers are one of them.
 
haha, yes. I actually like the Roman Archers a lot...buuuut yes, when other units are getting cheaper at the same time...they never really to the point where they're better off than the other cheaper squads.
 
Results from a small 3-person tournament (4 total games) I was part of today.

Format: Each player brings 750 - 800 points worth of units. Each game, the players pool their figures and draft using a 1-2-2-2-2 draft order. Each player's drafted army has a max of 500 points and 24 hexes. VC-inclusive, using Delta points (August 2021 edition).

Players:
Chris (myself) : Raelin [RotV], Sonlen, Deltacron, Harquebus x2, Yari x2, Rats x2, Tagawa Samurai Archers x2, Marcu
[MENTION]Cleon[/MENTION] : Brontos, Knights of Weston x2, Sir Denrick, Thorgrim, Arkmer, Nakita Agents, Warriors of Ashra x1, Deltacron, Sahuagin Raider
[Mention]Itsbuzzi[/Mention] : Ornak, Moltenclaw, Mimring, Krug, Greenscales x2, Arrow Gruts x2, Otonashi

Game 1: Chris v. Itsbuzzi (Chris wins diceoff & chooses to pick 2nd)
Draft:
Itsbuzzi - Krug
Chris - Mimring & Raelin
Itsbuzzi - Moltenclaw & Ornak
Chris - Arrow Gruts x2
Itsbuzzi - Rats x1, Marcu
Chris - Harquebus x2, Otonashi
Game Result:
Chris won. Mimring kited Itsbuzzi's army successfully in the early and mid-game (killing rats & marcu and putting wounds on Krug & Molty) while the AGs died blocking various things. In the late game, Mimring retreated back to Chris' SZ and the Harquebus took over, quickly dropping both a half-life Krug & a half-life Moltenclaw. Ornak charged late-game but had no chance into 6 Raelin-backed Harqs on height.

Game 2: Itsbuzzi v. Cleon (Itsbuzzi wins diceoff & chooses to pick 2nd)
Draft:
Cleon: Mimring
Itsbuzzi: Krug, Moltenclaw
Cleon: Arrow Gruts x2
Itsbuzzi: Greenscales x2
Cleon: Knights of Weston x2
Itsbuzzi: Ashra
Cleon: Denrick
Game Result:
Cleon won. Early to mid game involved the Knights engaging Moltenclaw and the GWs while Molty tried to avoid Denrick. The knights killed the GWs before Molty could kill a critical mass of Knights, and the Knights were finally able to surround Molty where they and Denrick quickly finished him. Krug then engaged the Knights, but Cleon killed Krug across 2 rounds of knight attacks (including 2 Denrick attacks from height).

Game 3: Chris v. Cleon (Cleon wins diceoff & chooses to pick 1st)
Draft:
Cleon: Raelin
Chris: Rats x1, Nakita
Cleon: Harq x2
Chris: Knights x2
Cleon: Tagawa Samurai Archers x2
Chris: Deltacron, Thorgrim
Cleon: Arkmer, Ashra x1, Marcu, Raider
Game Result:
Chris won. The Nakita agents went absolutely nuts, hitting 4/6 smoke powders and refusing to die until the very end of the game. Nakitas alone killed literally every figure in Cleon's army. Early game, I used the rats to grab & hold the movement glyph for the whole game. I then spent 2 OMs to develop knights onto height and engage some forward TSAs. The Nakitas then moved up, spending most of their time adjacent to Thorgrim while exchanging shots with the Harqs (some were tied down by a few rats at this point) and TSAs. Nakitas just refused to die at this point, winning the ranged battle and killing all the Harqs, TSAs, & Raelin. Arkmer in the late game killed 2 Nakitas, but the game was over by then.

Game 4: Chris v. Itsbuzzi (Itsbuzzi wins diceoff and chooses to pick 1st)
Draft:
Itsbuzzi: Mimring
Chris: Raelin, Moltenclaw
Itsbuzzi: Greenscale Warriors x1, Arrow Gruts x1
Chris: Deltacron, Harquebus x1
Itsbuzzi: Rats x2
Chris: Harquebus x1, Otonashi
Itsbuzzi: GWs x1, AGs x1
Game Result:
Chris won. Early game Chris developed Raelin and sent the Harqs to shoot at Mimring until the Harqs were mostly killed / tied down by various screen units (mostly rats & AGs). Harqs did 3 total wounds to Mimring. Chris then brought up Moltenclaw to engage the screen units. Itsbuzzi did a good job of denying multiple attacks to Molty for a while and kept Mimring safely far away pinging from 8 spaces, but Mimring just couldn't get enough offense mostly shooting up 4 v 6 into Molty. Over 2 rounds, Molty took 2 wounds while killing the rat + AG screen (the GWs were still in the SZ). Once the screen was dead, Molty moved forward and killed Mimring in the first direct attack. The GWs charged late but had basically no chance.

Final thoughts:
- Traditionally strong stand-alone units (Raelin, Rats, Dragons) stood out as still strong (both prioritized in drafting and in-game) despite their point increases. I think this was partially due to their ability to work with almost any other piece which makes them stronger in a draft-format than a double-blind where you could, say, bring more of a common squad instead of including Raelin.
- Nakitas being cheaper definitely encouraged me to base my game with Cleon around them; that and they seemed like the best chance to duel a Raelin-Harq pod after I lost 1st pick to Cleon. When smoke power is hitting at 66% frequency Nakitas can carry a game (and did).
- I'm not sold that Moltenclaw is 30 points better than Mimring. Today everyone was favoring Mimring (better matchups into some of the units here b/c longer range + cheaper points). I think the gap between these 2 dragons could use some more discussion and I'm curious of any thoughts anyone has on them.
- Dragons are good into low-defense figures :)
 
Oregon

Here's the Oregon results.



~Dysole, who could probably figure out who beat who if you want that info but it's not recorded
 
As promised, we are now rolling out our 4 month update to Delta pricing. There are a whopping 70 updates in prices this time around, so I’ve broken it down into categories to help people understand what’s changing and why. There's also a tab on the spreadsheet that shows all the changes.

Oops
Spoiler Alert!

Part of a project like this is making adjustments, looking at how they play out, and recognizing when you’ve swung a unit too far in the other direction. In the case of these designs, we are moving the price back closer to its original - in some cases all the way back or even in the other direction. Sometimes there’s a specific reason we missed (e.g. we didn’t account for Re-Tak-Shi boosting Drudge, the support figures for Kurrok and Blades got more expensive) and in other cases it was just a miss.

Faction Reapportionments
Spoiler Alert!

In these cases we are shifting around the points allocations between figures that have tight synergy.
  • In the case of Harqs they are too cheap as a standalone unit at 55, but in order to keep the cost of the Kato army at the right level with their price hike, Kato takes a huge price cut.
  • Similarly, the Gladiatrix is a bit too cheap at 30 but Spartacus needs to be cheaper to support the classic steamroller build (which is at a reasonable power level for Delta).
  • We slide a bit of the cost of Rechets directly onto their card from Iskra.
  • Several Elf Wizards take a price cut, but Ulginesh takes the biggest one. Haduc goes up slightly in part because of his ability to boost frenzy builds.
  • Master Lao absorbs a bit of the cost from the rest of the Monks. (Overall the faction becomes cheaper.)

VCheese Tax
Spoiler Alert!

These units are good. See the recent VCheese event to see how. (This isn’t really why all these units went up in price, but it’s not not why.)

We can bump other things up, too
Spoiler Alert!

Only a few here. Mimring and Morgoloth both just merit a bump, while cutters are helped by the less frequent appearance of dragons and majors in the Delta meta.

Red Headed Step-Bonding Heroes
Spoiler Alert!

The relevant squads for most of these designs rose in price, in part due to the presence of really good bonding heroes. Since these are not those heroes, they become cheaper so they can still be viable as budget options with the more expensive squad. (Estivara is not actually a bonding hero, of course, but she has strong spider synergy. Note that the Wyvern and Estivara price cuts do not apply in Delta Classic, where spiders are cheaper.)

Who are you and what have you done with dok???
Spoiler Alert!

As many know, I really dislike Isamu. Isamu absolutely deserves to cost 25 points based on what he does. But raising Isamu that high made us realize something interesting about how tournament Heroscape works. Without underpriced filler units, it’s way more painful to play a build that’s 10-20 points below the max point total. So, as much as I don’t personally like it, it makes sense to intentionally allow Isamu to be a bit above the curve so that there’s still a generically strong filler option available at 20 points.

General Discount bin
Spoiler Alert!

A catch-all category for a bunch of units that are dropping in cost. The reasons vary considerably from figure to figure, but most of these units haven’t seen much action in Delta events. Even with the discounts many had already received, they were overpriced for what they do.
 
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Thanks for the update! Looking forward to the next Delta event with a few army ideas kicked off by these updates.
 
Great update! The only change I really disagree on is Kuthnak's 20 point increase. Kuthnak is definitely a good figure, but the value of Boiling Blood is noticeably diminished in delta thanks to the point increase the common Orc squads all got. A 5 or 10 point buff would have been sufficient imo - 20 points is 1-2 steps too far. Very good changes outside of that though.
 
Grey Waves said:
Great update! The only change I really disagree on is Kuthnak's 20 point increase. Kuthnak is definitely a good figure, but the value of Boiling Blood is noticeably diminished in delta thanks to the point increase the common Orc squads all got. A 5 or 10 point buff would have been sufficient imo - 20 points is 1-2 steps too far. Very good changes outside of that though.
Click to expand...

Blade Gruts went down by 5, so with four squads of blades it's an even deal.
 
Grey Waves said:
Great update! The only change I really disagree on is Kuthnak's 20 point increase. Kuthnak is definitely a good figure, but the value of Boiling Blood is noticeably diminished in delta thanks to the point increase the common Orc squads all got. A 5 or 10 point buff would have been sufficient imo - 20 points is 1-2 steps too far. Very good changes outside of that though.
Click to expand...

As @S1R_ART0R1US mentioned, this +20 was done in conjunction with the Blades -5, which ends up keeping the Blades + Kuthnak at roughly the same point total (actually -5 net if you run Blades x5) but makes the Blades build with less powerful bonding heroes a bit cheaper.

Getting better balance across different bonding heroes with the same bonding squad was a big goal of ours to try and make all of the bonding options as viable as possible.
 
Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
 
Knox said:
Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
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It isn't intended to be compatible, and we aren't taking any changes from CUC into account with any decision making for Delta pricing.

That doesn't mean you can't mix and match as you would want though in your own games; I would caution against taking powers from CUC and combining them with point totals from Delta though, as that would likely cause unbalanced figures.

As you mentioned, some figures aren't super playable in a competitive Delta pricing scene, and that's usually intentional actually (certain figures, like terrain dependent figures or very high variance figures like Deadeye Dan & Sudema, we don't feel are super-conducive to a healthy meta and so those figures tend to still be somewhat over-priced in Delta). And there are other units (like Roman Archers, potentially) where the base powers just don't make for a very good figure. At some point, even as 10 point figures, they just end up wasting space in a start zone.

From Delta's perspective, that's ok. Our goal is mainly to get the ~ 80% of figures that don't hit those corner cases well-priced.
 
Entirely fair! I'll probably be mixing and matching some at my home table

Chris Perkins said:
Knox said:
Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
Click to expand...

It isn't intended to be compatible, and we aren't taking any changes from CUC into account with any decision making for Delta pricing.

That doesn't mean you can't mix and match as you would want though in your own games; I would caution against taking powers from CUC and combining them with point totals from Delta though, as that would likely cause unbalanced figures.

As you mentioned, some figures aren't super playable in a competitive Delta pricing scene, and that's usually intentional actually (certain figures, like terrain dependent figures or very high variance figures like Deadeye Dan & Sudema, we don't feel are super-conducive to a healthy meta and so those figures tend to still be somewhat over-priced in Delta). And there are other units (like Roman Archers, potentially) where the base powers just don't make for a very good figure. At some point, even as 10 point figures, they just end up wasting space in a start zone.

From Delta's perspective, that's ok. Our goal is mainly to get the ~ 80% of figures that don't hit those corner cases well-priced.
Click to expand...
 
Knox said:
Chris Perkins said:
Knox said:
Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
Click to expand...

It isn't intended to be compatible, and we aren't taking any changes from CUC into account with any decision making for Delta pricing.

That doesn't mean you can't mix and match as you would want though in your own games; I would caution against taking powers from CUC and combining them with point totals from Delta though, as that would likely cause unbalanced figures.
Click to expand...
Entirely fair! I'll probably be mixing and matching some at my home table
Click to expand...
As long as (as CP said) you stick to one or the other (i.e. Delta costs or CUC version, not both), that will probably work fine 90% of the time or more.
 
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