Custom Competition Balanced Unit Costs: Delta/Delta+

[The_X_Marker]

NEW THREAD FOR PLAYTESTING AND DELTA ACTION CLICK HERE

∆

You have yourself some prime HeroScape!​

HeroScape Delta is an alternative unit cost system for Heroscape. This system is designed so you can play with the official figures the way they were written, but with an alternative cost system so all units are equally competitive.

HeroScape Delta+ is also an alternative unit cost system. This sister system is designed so that every credible figure, official and custom, can be played as written, but with an alternative cost system so all units are equally competitive.

The point costs of the same official units differ between Delta and Delta+ because Delta+ has the figures costs adjusted based on custom units as well as their standing officially.

I just don't want casual readers, or people interested in perhaps trying Delta for the first time, to think that it's only half-baked, or not 'tested' enough to be worth it. It's totally functional and totally worth it as it is, right now. It will just be even slightly MORE worth it, as a few prices here and there are adjusted.

Here's how to get started:

Spoiler Alert!

1- Sign up for HeroScape Delta play testing. Signing up is easy! Just respond to this thread with your chosen point total and armies.
2- Decide on which units you wish to play test with the current Delta points, and at which point total. More totals is better!
3- Post your findings of that unit at that point total, and give it a rating.
4- See step 2!

Each unit used will be rated on a scale of 1-10, following MegaSilvers Unit Debates method of unit rating, with a brief explanation on why that rating was chosen.

A cost will be raised, lowered, or left alone depending on the results. No unit will be raised too much or lowered too little at a time.

1. Playability at Point Value
2. Overall Usefulness
3. Better or Worse at Point Value
4. Army Builds
5. Best Strategic Use
6. Situational Usefulness
7. Best Format for this Value

Points are optimized for any point total between 400 and 600, but any total desired is welcome.

It's easy!

Important Note

We who are truly pushing for HeroScape Delta are not pushing it as a fix. It is not a fix to anything. It is a point customization idea that we wish everyone would try once in a while.

FAQ

Spoiler Alert!

What is HeroScape Delta?

Excellent question! As Heroscape is now out of print, and only custom units are getting released, for those who want another new addition, Delta is it. It is the seasonal, evolving game, where point costs change from season to season.

What is HeroScape Delta Plus?

This is simply the change in prices with customs added. The customs help the old units in many ways, so a separate point list should be made to keep it all compatible.

So, you just want to spit in the face of the games designers?

No, not at all. While we realize that tournament play was not at the front of the designers minds, we do also realize that a few of the units are not even balanced for the scenarios in the game guides. Looking at the tournaments of past years does show that many units who perform well, show up consistently in the top spots, while those that perform good, but not as well, either aren't represented or are underrepresented.

There are other ways to add variety. Ever heard of the CUC, SOV, C3V, or more than just a Kill'em'All format?

While this is true, each of these has their own problems, some of which maintain the lack of variety in games.
CUC- How many tournaments are allowing CUC? It is a bold effort, but many of the complaints of Legacy also apply to CUC. Where, instead of just changing a point value, they change stats and abilities.
SoV,C3V- The customs are incredibly well done. That said, there are more people who don't play them for many reasons. The unofficial feel, monetary need, and the availability of figures are a few.
Formats- Probably the best way to balance figures at this point is the Reverse the Whip format. Other formats sway who is the best unit depending on the format. Another note is that if more formats are made, than they will have overlapping elements of previous formats.

How can you expect perfect balance? It wont happen!

We do not expect perfect balance, but rather a more rich variety of armies in any given scenario or format that can do just as well, with their new point values, as any other unit in the format.

This system is too hard, my group won't deal with it.

The system is as easy as it is now to make an army. Just look up point values of units you wish to use, and total them to the point total that is needed.
If you don't want to though, you don't have to follow the system, no big deal.

This system is inefficient, it takes too long to play test. Why use it?

The system moves faster as the amount of play testers goes up. A unit doesn't have to be play tested every season, it can be play tested in one, than skipped over as another unit is tested. And, we're testing whole armies, so the amount of units tested per game may be quite a bit.

The Current Points

This is our starting block, where every unit will be tested from for the 2012-2013 season. This season will end when Winter ends.

Each season is a normal season. The units who are played will be updated every Winter and Summer, as the results come in.

The short hand for the current prices is (First letter of the Season, either 1 for Northern Hemisphere Winter, or 2 for Northern Hemisphere Summer).(Iteration of the points, which is the number of iterations there has been).(The year it was implemented)

So for the Summer of 2014 rules, it would be 2.3.14.

Point Cost Spreadsheets

Delta 1.1.12


Delta+ 1.1.12

_______________________________________________


DELTA/+ ARMY BUILDER

_____________________________________________________
How We Function

Spoiler Alert!

We have started to gain traction in the forums, so we need a form to our madness. Anyone can join as long as they are honestly willing to play test units.
During the season, we pick which units, that were tested thus far, need a point boost, dock, or neutral change, and we vote.

Voting is simple. The person who tested the unit must submit a change idea, I must vote, and other members of the forum, who are reputable, and are not against Delta, must vote.

___________________________________________________
How to Propose Changes

Spoiler Alert!

My proposal:

Delta:
Warden 816 70 --->80
Granite Guardians 95 ---> 80

Take note on how the higher number is always Red. The lower number is always Dark Green. This shows the change of gaining or losing value easier. Also, the proposed value is always Bold.
____________________________________________________
We wish not to leave anybody out, as keeping people out of the loop creates friction and dissent, so anyone can join. If it comes to it, we will establish a voting council, which consists of myself and 4 other members, who will be the final say in every change that is brought up.

Delta Quote of the Now

There were many competitive games and mostly rare armies. 5 of us who practiced together the week before the Tourney ran 3 armies that would never be at a tourney without Legacy/Delta. I'll take 60% new armies over rehashes of Glads vs. Gruts.

Our Goals

Spoiler Alert!

The goal of this committee is to bring balance and variety to all official units. We hope that one day the disparity between A+ units and F units is gone, as all will be played almost equally on the battlefield. By evolving the points each unit costs, we can further enhance the balance of each unit.

We also hope to integrate the customs of C3V and SoV as soon as support for this picks up.

Imagine a war story where Anubian wolves were the most valuable unit of that game, it may be a stretch now, but with Delta, it is going to be possible.

This concludes, for now, our look into HeroScape Delta, any and all are welcome to try it, as long as they try it!

Regards,
The X Marker
HeroScape Delta Director

 

[kolakoski]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Well met!

From a recent post/blog:

P.S.: I am pleased that there is renewed interest in the Legacy point system, as evidenced by the recent discussion, and the formation of the Legacy Committee. I will suggest to chas (and Taeblewalker, if he attends) that we use Legacy for this game, and will stipulate its use for games I host for the foreseeable future.

I don't know how much "official" testing/reporting will go on, but, to the extent possible, you have my full support. I will suggest to the rest of The Gang of Four that we use Legacy when they are hosting, but whether they choose to do so is, of course, up to them.

 

[Codeman]

Re: The Legacy Committee

So your plan is to keep the winter 2010 Legacy Points intact and not "tweek" them until after the winter of 2013?

 

[The_X_Marker]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Cornpuff never went past that in his point values. I believe that it is the best place to start off. The updated points will be presented in the beginning of spring of 2013. Which is also the end of the upcoming winter.

Sent from my Kyocera Loft.

 

[MegaSilver]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Hmm, interesting to see my Unit Debates method being used to compare new vs. old. Novel, indeed.

Carry on.

 

[The_X_Marker]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Well met!

From a recent post/blog:

P.S.: I am pleased that there is renewed interest in the Legacy point system, as evidenced by the recent discussion, and the formation of the Legacy Committee. I will suggest to chas (and Taeblewalker, if he attends) that we use Legacy for this game, and will stipulate its use for games I host for the foreseeable future.

I don't know how much "official" testing/reporting will go on, but, to the extent possible, you have my full support. I will suggest to the rest of The Gang of Four that we use Legacy when they are hosting, but whether they choose to do so is, of course, up to them.

Thank you for your support. It may not seem like you 4 are a lot, but if each of you plays just one 500 point army with Legacy, assuming an average of 4 unit types per army, it would be a play test of 16 units per game. That adds up, almost exponentially.

Hmm, interesting to see my Unit Debates method being used to compare new vs. old. Novel, indeed.

Carry on.

Ah, so it was you who invented it! Wasn't sure, but it couldn't have been done without your own novel idea. Credited!

 

[Codeman]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Cornpuff never went past that in his point values. I believe that it is the best place to start off. The updated points will be presented in the beginning of spring of 2013. Which is also the end of the upcoming winter.

Sent from my Kyocera Loft.

Just wanted to know how long the posted legacy points are valid... don't want people playing with too many different versions.

Of those of you who have been playing with the 2010 Winter legacy points... do they need to be "tweeked" very much? How much of a change do you think there will be left to do?

 

[The_X_Marker]

Re: The Legacy Committee

How much of a change do you think there will be left to do?

I can't say, but the system is designed to have changes every season. No unit should be reduced or increased by more than 10 points at a time, and more than 5 will be rare.

I haven't played yet, but I have a few armies I want to try at 500 points:

3x spiders 105 105
2x Wyvern 190 295
Estivaria 75 370
Venoc Warlord 125 495

Real value: 520

They will be going up against this army:

3x Marrden Nagrubs 105 105
Wo-Sa-Ga 125 230
Su Bak Na 150 380
Warden 816 70 450
Eldgrim 35 485

Real Value: 505

I am also going to pit two other armies against eachother.

2x Knights of Weston 160 160
Sir Gilbert 125 285
2x 4th Mass 170 455
Kyntela Gwyn 20 475

Real Value: 405

Against:

3x Greenscales 70 210
Nilfheim 215 425
James Murphy 75 500

Real value: 440

So that is two popular armies and two less popular armies of today's metagame. I'll have to see how they each do. Notice how the popular armies gained points, while the less popular armies lost points.

There are so many ways to make armies, and so much to be conscience of when doing it this way, keeping the valiant bonus for the 4th meant I had to come up short, despite wanting 3x KoW so bad. Nilfheim and the Greenies are higher too, so it depended on the last points for a decent ranged option. The last unit in each army was mostly an afterthought, as some type of filler or support.

As for how long it took, about as long as making any army under the Vanilla system, just had the whole cost table in front of me. It is a lot easier than you would expect.

 

[flameslayer93]

Re: The Legacy Committee

It might be interesting to have 1 rather good army go against 1 rather crummy army using Legacy points. Just to see what sort of gap there is.

 

[Codeman]

Re: The Legacy Committee

............... No unit should be reduced or increased by more than 10 points at a time, and more than 5 will be rare.
.

Good to know, thank you .... I can support that type of "tweeking".

The balance of the game from when it came out and with through out all the releases/waves should be praised. The Heroscape design team did a GREAT job. I would hate to see the " Legacy Committee " deviate from that. However if the "Legacy Committee" remembers: Cornpuffs original reason to come up with the legacy points we and the game should all be in good shape.

 

[The_X_Marker]

Re: The Legacy Committee

It might be interesting to have 1 rather good army go against 1 rather crummy army using Legacy points. Just to see what sort of gap there is.

That is to be done as well. So far, there seems to be no difference in playing any of the armies, as compared to how they were played under Vanilla.

But wow! The spider army rocked so far! They get +2 move, +1 attack with positioning, and just roll through with the Wyverns. This seems to be their optimal army.

I'll post reports and such as soon as possible, as well as the unit comparisons.

 

[Typhon2222]

Re: The Legacy Committee

So glad to see this revived!

My gaming group in Berkeley played extensively with the Legacy pricing system. In fact, many of them never played with anything other! (Mainly because our group of 7-8 always played solely with my 'Scape stuff, and I instituted Legacy early on. Many of them learned the game with Legacy pricing.)

Our general opinion was that it may have been a bit conservative. I know others who played with Legacy felt the same. It didn't do quite enough to lift the bottom-of-the-barrel units up.

At some point, CornPuff produced a second, revised, version of his Legacy pricing, which he called Legacy: Evolution. It was more radical. Probably a bit too radical.


So... I'm glad to see that you're starting with the earlier (less extreme) price list.

 

[The_X_Marker]

Re: The Legacy Committee

So glad to see this revived!

Our general opinion was that it may have been a bit conservative.

At some point, CornPuff produced a second, revised, version of his Legacy pricing, which he called Legacy: Evolution. It was more radical. Probably a bit too radical.


So... I'm glad to see that you're starting with the earlier (less extreme) price list.

Well thanks for the support!

It starts conservative, but we're hoping that it will be more realistic in future patches.

Evolution was way, way too radical. I really don't forsee any unit going past the 230 point mark that isn't a Marvel figure.

Give this time, and I'll be sure to have it be less conservative feeling. Even if it takes months, it will be worth the wait.

EDIT: I'm doing extensive play testing on many armies. Please be patient as I don't want to bog down this forum with posts of one match at a time.
The four armies posted are going to be played for between 7 and 12 games each, versing each other army an equal number of times.

It's also not going to be actual battle reports. Just general feels and thoughts on each army, as they are played.

 

[Typhon2222]

Re: The Legacy Committee

For his initial pricing, as I understand it, CornPuff began with the main Power Rankings maintained by spider_poison and Jexik, and crunched numbers from there.

But of course, they don't include the C3V/SoV units. Nor the impact that those new units have for changing the rankings of some older units. (Omegacron boosting the previously-awful Repulsors, for example, .)

dok's modified Power Rankings account for both, though. So it might be worthwhile starting there, for assigning points to C3V/SoV units and modifying the older units whose synergy with the new changes their value.

 

[Codeman]

Re: The Legacy Committee

..............................
But of course, they don't include the C3V/SoV units. Nor the impact that those new units have for changing the rankings of some older units. ........

C3V/SoV if they have an impact on the value of the orignial units.... then maybe someone should be looking at the point values of C3V / SoV point costs and change them. The original figures as HS released them has to be the bench mark (not the other way around that would be foolish).

 

[ZBeeblebrox]

Re: The Legacy Committee

..............................
But of course, they don't include the C3V/SoV units. Nor the impact that those new units have for changing the rankings of some older units. ........

C3V/SoV if they have an impact on the value of the orignial units.... then maybe someone should be looking at the point values of C3V / SoV point costs and change them. The original figures as HS released them has to be the bench mark (not the other way around that would be foolish).

OK, I do not understand your statement Codeman.

Now, maybe you are not familiar with SoV/C3V, but our testing is based on the Original figures as a benchmark, but some of the SoV/C3V figures do change the metagame, thus changing the Power Rankings of original figures. That is what happens when new designs are entered into the game. From what I read from you post, you are saying the Power ranking should never change...but that is impossible when you introduce new elements. The game changes, adapts to the new units in question.

Do you believe the "Power Rankings" did not change when the D&D waves were introduced, or how about when the Capuans were introduced to help out Spartacus? As new units are introduced, the metagame changes...so of course if you include SoV/C3V units into your games, the metagame will change...it is inevitable.

I am not saying you have to include SoV/C3V (although, I for one would like to see what Legacy can do with them)...but if you do...you cannot take the stand, that SoV/C3V should not influence rankings of other units...especially since some SoV/C3V units were designed to help out less used Heroscape Original Units.

Good luck to you guys, as I see how Legacy can help make a new interesting metagame and would be a great addition as a play-style.

-ZB

 

[Shedim Kabal]

Re: The Legacy Committee

I actually think most of the C3V and SoV pricing is very conservative, and that's not an insult at all. Power Creep is especially off-putting for people looking at customs, and the original designers often erred on the side of caution with points.

Therefore, at least initially, I doubt Legacy will have to alter many of the prices if people mix customs and Legacy. The only unit that currently sees a big boost under Legacy is Zettian Infantry, due to the huge drop in Deathwalker prices. But the ZI can afford to go a season as dominate before nerfing.

The Havech might need a boost in price, since the Horned Skull Brutes are 80 under Legacy. At 90 points, the Eradicators are pretty powerful, and I would could see bumping them to 95.

 

[kolakoski]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Maybe, it is a thought, and I think I'll keep it in the Legacy Committee, at the very least.

Well met!

I like this:

Legacy is a pretty good name, in my opinion. One of the definitions is, in fact, inheriting or receiving from an ancestor or predecessor, by virtue of carrying on the duties of the will.

Moving on to:

demonstrate, in practice, that this can be a successful format . . .

So, what do you think, if we made some sort of Legacy brochure that TDs could hand out, which would list the figures seeing price changes, and some expected army shake ups, and maybe list resources on the web (assuming we get some resources made)? . . . In addition to getting some Legacy events run, and some playtests in . . . ?

Sounds like the beginning of a plan. But who is "we" at this point? Who's on the Committee, and how are/will decisions be made?

As I said, I applaud and support your willingness to pick up where Cornpuff left off, but your view of the tournament scene is a bit skewed.

Has anyone else been watching the threads for tournaments coming up and the phrase "build a fun army". A fun army in a tourney isn't fun when you are getting munched game after game.

I build what I consider to be "fun" armies, without getting "munched game after game." I have attended a few tournaments, and Dad has the right of it as to the ambience. For whatever reasons, there were no Tier 1 armies fielded in the tournaments I attended. I suspect that many of us who are sophisticated (and/or well read) enough to understand what constitutes such an army are also rebellious/egotistical enough to want to create/compete/win with armies uniquely our own. And, done intelligently, very competitive, and fun at the same time, armies can be built this way. I have attended 2 tournaments (and one competitive series). I took second place in the series, and went 4-1 in both tournaments, having a blast in all of these events (and, if I had played better, I could have won all three). Disparaging the tournament scene is counter-productive.

If we are going to garner support for Legacy, we're going to have to take a different, more positive, approach.

 

[kolakoski]

Re: The Legacy Committee

Well met!

For future reference, from 2011:

If I have any quibble with this system, it would be the pricing of Bonding Champions and Warlords, particularly for Orcs and Romans. Yes, their prices needed to be adjusted relative to each other. But I'd rather see the relative prices of Bonding squads be made higher, while their corrosponding heroes' prices be made lower. That way, the reasonable assumption that Bonding squads are more powerful because of, and will rarely, if ever, be played without, Champions or Warlords, is reflected in their price(s), while the choices of viable combinations of Champions and Warlords would be greater, and said Champions and Warlords could be more viable in their own right, i.e., played on their own, without the necessity of Bonding to make them viable.

I included some of this early discussion in the Call thread, but anyone entering into this discussion should [re]read this whole thread first. Let's hope you haven't bitten off more than you can chew!

By the way, did you read An Evolutionary or Static Point System for Heroscape?

 

[The_X_Marker]

Re: The Legacy Committee

I feel like the bonding should effect units despite if they are on the giving or receiving end of it. Good bonding has both sides go up, while bad bonding drops the hero or primary unit price first, and then the squad or secondary unit.

Depending on the circumstances, one of nine things can happen:
1-Both bonding and bonded go up. (B^b^)
2-Bonding goes up, bonded stays the same. (B^b-)
3-Both stay the same. (B-b-)
4-Bonding stays the same, bonded goes up. (B-b^)
5-Both drop in price. (Bvbv)
6-Bonding drops, bonded stays the same. (Bvb-)
7-Bonding stays the same, bonded drops. (B-bv)
8-Bonding drops, bonded goes up. (Bvb^)
9-Bonding goes up, bonded drops. (B^bv)

The bonded unit shouldn't go up more in a season than the bonding unit, but it is for the better of the system. Generally, a stronger unit will go up, not just because of bonding, but because of their own skill and ability.

And yes, I did read the thread many times before deciding to start this up again, as well as your post.