Myriadite
Active member
Ah, I get it now. I hadn't heard of this terrain kit; that's pretty bad.
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Consolidated List of Problems With The Renegade AOA Roll Out
- Thread starter chas
- Start date
Ah, I get it now. I hadn't heard of this terrain kit; that's pretty bad.
The inconsistency of the edges on the embossed (raised) surface spaces on the new 24-hex land tiles, when compared to other new land tiles, is quite annoying. Consistency is important.
Unlike the base tiles for the Marro Hive, Glaciers, and Rock Outcrops (6-hex swamp water, multi-hex ice, 3-hex shadow), the new 3-hex water tiles lack the "fake connection" lines for determining the borders of each space on all six sides. This is yet again, another annoying inconsistency. Even if 3-hex non-land tiles without a couple of border lines look "nicer", I still think it's a step backwards functionally. Figure bases straying off the space will be a bit of a judgement call, and it makes counting spaces for movement a bit more difficult, especially if several of them are grouped together. Form should always follow function.
I would buy more water if the Waters of Valhalla set did NOT include more of the wellspring ice. A proliferation of Wellspring Water will water down (pun intended) the significance of the Wellsprings. The same goes for a proliferation of Generals. I realize this is just my opinion (concerning unwanted proliferations), but I'm sticking with it.
I'm very disappointed that the Laur Walls do not stack. Also, the Laur Wall design looks inferior to FA wall sections that seamlessly work with any elevation changes of supporting land tiles. It doesn't look like the Laur Walls can "climb" along with the land underneath them. (I could be wrong here, since I don't have them yet.) Also, the Laur Wall connections look pretty flimsy.
I've never paid much attention to the lore and character bios in the past, but geez... many of the bios on these new characters are awful.
Unlike the base tiles for the Marro Hive, Glaciers, and Rock Outcrops (6-hex swamp water, multi-hex ice, 3-hex shadow), the new 3-hex water tiles lack the "fake connection" lines for determining the borders of each space on all six sides. This is yet again, another annoying inconsistency. Even if 3-hex non-land tiles without a couple of border lines look "nicer", I still think it's a step backwards functionally. Figure bases straying off the space will be a bit of a judgement call, and it makes counting spaces for movement a bit more difficult, especially if several of them are grouped together. Form should always follow function.
I would buy more water if the Waters of Valhalla set did NOT include more of the wellspring ice. A proliferation of Wellspring Water will water down (pun intended) the significance of the Wellsprings. The same goes for a proliferation of Generals. I realize this is just my opinion (concerning unwanted proliferations), but I'm sticking with it.
I'm very disappointed that the Laur Walls do not stack. Also, the Laur Wall design looks inferior to FA wall sections that seamlessly work with any elevation changes of supporting land tiles. It doesn't look like the Laur Walls can "climb" along with the land underneath them. (I could be wrong here, since I don't have them yet.) Also, the Laur Wall connections look pretty flimsy.
I've never paid much attention to the lore and character bios in the past, but geez... many of the bios on these new characters are awful.
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They're all so lonely and misunderstood, and none of them really want to fight anybody.
Good points, especially regarding the Laur Walls. I guess the FA terrain spoiled us with it being so well-designed (albeit not as well-produced with the binding issues). I remember talking to CVN briefly at GC 2006 when he told me they worked on the FA set for an entire year.
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These physical problems surprise me, because early in the Renegade Era (unless it was actually the Haslab Era), one of that company's reps said that they were using the same manufacturers who had made the original game terrain. So I thought we were covered.Unless someone intervened by sticking some kind of bent oar in the water, similar to the infamous Hasbro Exec who had too many of the Unique Heroes produced, when we all only needed one each of them in our collections. This was the worst error made that I can think of offhand when the original game came out.
All the tooling was lost or damaged and they had to start over. Somebody probably approved the wrong thing or didn't pay enough attention and that's how the factories got the go ahead to make weird looking 24 hex tiles and jungle pieces that don't fit right.
Wait, WHAT???
Maybe they'll fix it, but the options for army point cost all end in 50 or 100, So 300, 350, 400, 450, etc. If you want to build armies or host tournaments with, say 740 point armies, you're unable to do that right now.
So you can still submit an army to an event that doesn't add up to a multiple of 50, you just can't run events outside those totals. That's not *as* bad. But there are times that certain point totals lend themselves to a one-note meta, and being able to adjust up or down just a few points makes some options more or less viable in a way that's healthier for the meta. Hopefully they adjust that eventually.
Owlman
Active member
Respectful counter points:
1. I love the paint jobs from Sir H's reveal, all except BBN really. He def. should have had some of the classic reddish tints in the nooks and crannies on the sculpt. The Admiral's arms don't bother me really. Pricing for pre painted stuff has gone up, it is what it is. (My opinions may change on the paint jobs if my order comes screwed up though.)
2. Yes, makes sense, only being available from Renegade, at least for now. Seems like they're selling out of a fair amount of stuff too so far. I'm sure they may allow distributers to re sell painted stuff in the future.
3. It's a master set, it comes with terrain. Doesn't bother me at all, I doubt it really bothers all that many people.
4. Yes, this is a severe problem. Would love an answer to that one soon. From the radio silence i'm guessing it's pretty wide spread
5. Yep, they look like....Ice. :/
6. I could have sworn Renegade never promised they'd stack, I thought Haslab did...? I could be wrong, if Renegade did promise that, that's a blunder.
7. It has some major bugs, definitely, but overall "inferior" remains to be seen. To be fair the software guy seems to be responding quick to issues. Too soon to pass judgement imo. Give it another month or 2, then I may agree here.
8. I'm fine with the price changes. It's better than nothing. I honestly don't want them to tweak more point costs in the future, unless they will reprint old cards with the updated costs.
Does anyone have a pic of what's going on with the 24 hex plates or a timestamp for when they're shown in tthe unboxing video?
'Scaper94
Well-known member
Go to about 44:45 [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUhmoFwvHRE"]this[/ame]
Thanks. That's not as bad as I was picturing. I thought it was some sort of lip or something anound the perimeter of the entire plate.
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
How would any reasonably experienced Scape player look at those walls and not expect them to stack? They are unmistakably designed to stack. The super-ugly plus-shaped tops on the pillars make sense only if they are designed to stack. (And didn't Haslab show them stacking?) Edit to add: Yup:
Even if Renegade never said out loud "we promise they will stack," the implication is clear and unmistakable, with or without Haslab awareness.
Stackability is a key point in the timeless beauty of this terrain system. It's why people use it for lots of other games. Screwing up the obviously implied stackability is a major unforced error here. I would not accept "hey, we never said it would stack" for one second.
And that's just one of the evidences that Renegade has already sealed their fate. Everyone is going to end up paying far more than Haslab wanted but getting less than Haslab was offering, and once a critical mass of players figure that out, Renegade will go into cost-cutting mode (if they haven't already).
Holy crap, so many stupidly avoidable errors.
Even if Renegade never said out loud "we promise they will stack," the implication is clear and unmistakable, with or without Haslab awareness.
Stackability is a key point in the timeless beauty of this terrain system. It's why people use it for lots of other games. Screwing up the obviously implied stackability is a major unforced error here. I would not accept "hey, we never said it would stack" for one second.
And that's just one of the evidences that Renegade has already sealed their fate. Everyone is going to end up paying far more than Haslab wanted but getting less than Haslab was offering, and once a critical mass of players figure that out, Renegade will go into cost-cutting mode (if they haven't already).
Holy crap, so many stupidly avoidable errors.
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lucasd21
New member
Honestly, I don't see the wall stackability as an issue. They don't fit hexes on top of them, so who cares how tall they are? Functionally, they're only going to act as LOS blockers and I don't think anyone needs double high LOS blocking walls unless you're trying to hide huge figures. They are fundamentally different walls than FoA and aren't intended to function in gameplay the same way.
SkyWhale
Active member
I am a bit surprised no one has mentioned the different base sizes here yet. The molds have various different sized bases (I believe around 4 different sizes), for no apparent reason, which is mostly only an issue in my opinion because there is a squad figure that has a different sized base than the rest of his squad.
As for the walls not stacking, perhaps it may just be less shocking to me because I've known since the Haslab that the stacking wasn't possible with the design they had... because I recreated it, and wasn't able to recreate it perfectly without modifications that allowed for stacking.
As for the walls not stacking, perhaps it may just be less shocking to me because I've known since the Haslab that the stacking wasn't possible with the design they had... because I recreated it, and wasn't able to recreate it perfectly without modifications that allowed for stacking.
Owlman,
In regards to my Point Number Three in the OP, I'm not criticizing the New AOA Master Set at all here as a Master Set. I'm saying that based on my own local group and others I've spoken with, we old players, of whom there are in fact many--often with more money than younger people have to spend--are specifically holding back on Renegade purchasing for now, at least many of us are, because we want the new figures without old terrain.
As for you saying you doubt there are many who would care, you are ignoring our quite consequential Old Scape Veteran perspective entirely. Its quite a big deal to some of us.
And most of us ain't dead yet!
If Renegade just takes the money and runs after a year or two, it won't matter to them. But if they intend to be in for the longer haul, they need to consider this eventually--because it will cost them.
They may plan to rectify this later on, and I hope they do.
In regards to my Point Number Three in the OP, I'm not criticizing the New AOA Master Set at all here as a Master Set. I'm saying that based on my own local group and others I've spoken with, we old players, of whom there are in fact many--often with more money than younger people have to spend--are specifically holding back on Renegade purchasing for now, at least many of us are, because we want the new figures without old terrain.
As for you saying you doubt there are many who would care, you are ignoring our quite consequential Old Scape Veteran perspective entirely. Its quite a big deal to some of us.
And most of us ain't dead yet!If Renegade just takes the money and runs after a year or two, it won't matter to them. But if they intend to be in for the longer haul, they need to consider this eventually--because it will cost them.
They may plan to rectify this later on, and I hope they do.
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Feels like you're burying the lede here a bit ... are you saying you've managed to make stackable versions for yourself?
SkyWhale
Active member
Unsure if you're subtly asking me to share these, but yeah the SkyWalls stack: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6060285
The main thing I think that is different from the official stuff is that the top section is thinner than the bottom section... which is needed for the top to fit into the bottom. I think they're also a bit more thin overall, but I'll be finding that out next week. Oh, and they don't swing!
The main thing I think that is different from the official stuff is that the top section is thinner than the bottom section... which is needed for the top to fit into the bottom. I think they're also a bit more thin overall, but I'll be finding that out next week. Oh, and they don't swing!
A few reasons I asked about it:
1. It's an awesome thing and you clearly deserve credit!
2. Not sure what it says that Renegade couldn't crack it but you could
3. Continued proof that the community >>> any corporation when it comes to Heroscape
4. Yeah, share it with people!
Now I just need you to do an urban version
Just_a_Bill
Well-known member
I'm happy for you that you can't imagine a reason to stack walls. But no so enthused about your attitude that nobody else should imagine one either.
There were two good paths for Haslab/Renegade to take here and one bad one. The good ones:
1. Refine the column tops so stacking worked.
2. Give up on stacking and resculpt the columns so the tops weren't butt-ugly.
But no, they chose option 3, ugly and non-functional.
Sadly, lots of the aesthetics in AoA are significant downgrades from what Heroscape was before. In particular, these "premium" paint jobs look lazy, flat, and lifeless. I nearly ordered the pre-painted versions, but now that we've seen what they really look like, boy am I glad I didn't. Thankfully the unexpected closing of preorders saved me from myself.
You can still preorder them, only Renegade's site is sold out and they will restock when the products ship.
I think all of the aesthetics are worse. Weird, overly detailed (added expense) minis that nobody asked for. Bad paint jobs for the minis. Army cards that look worse than customs. Glyphs that look worse than customs. Unfinished wall tops. Inconsistent hexes on the tiles. Wellspring tiles that look like cheaper copies of the ice tiles.
The Dice, order markers, and wound markers are the only things that didn't get altered for the worse.
I haven't seen the jungle pieces in person yet, so those might be an improvement once some time with a dremel is spent fixing them.