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Chain Bonding

Hi ppl. Hope yr all good. New here and new to heroscape. Think i might have the only copy of the game in Ireland!... but I'm trying to spread the good word :)
Anyway, having trouble finding the answer to this; Is 'Chain-Bonding' allowed/possible/present in heroscape? I guess you will understand what i mean, but to clarify: Bonding a unit that also bonds into another unit ie having 3/4 + moves+attacks with a single order marker reveal.

This is something i've become aware of due to the change in text for Comman vs Bonding, but also because of some custom units i'm tweaking.

All right, that's it for now. Dr O.
 
The general rules themselves don't disallow it, but most would consider it to be too oppressive to chain so many turns off of one order marker, and this can be seen in official Scape design. For example, Viscerot's bonding with the Wraithriders carefully requires that Viscerot have an order marker be revealed on his army card so that the bonding will happen, which will prevent a player from using Roman Legionnaires Warlord Bonding to attempt a Viscerot -> Wraithriders -> Romans triple play.

There are ways to play around with bonding with certain limitations imposed. Ornak essentially letting two distinct heroes essentially bond is powerful, but can also only be done with OM1. So you could try something that uses limitations of Order Marker, some special requirements, or just the individual figures involved being very weak. You just want to be mindful that number of full activations, meaning both move and attack, from one order marker really make and break the output of Heroscape stuff so it would be easy to break the game with too much output.
 
Welcome to the site! Customs are certainly a great part of the Heroscape experience.

To add to RM's response above:

The custom group C3V created the Wildwood Monarch, which is intended to chain bond with the Wildwood Sentinel followed by the Wildwood Runner. The chain is limited to only one of each.

A related, official example is the Venoc Vipers, which, after revealing one order marker, could take infinite turns. However, they have to successfully roll 16 or higher each attempt. This idea could be used for custom chain bonding.
 
Hi and thank you. Appreciate the response. To clarify, I was making sure to avoid Chain Bonding as it seemed far too oppressive. In fact, I was hoping it was specifically ruled against and assumed the 'Command' alteration was a step to remove the possibility and likely lead to a ruling for all bonding in the process.
 
Well, just to complete the point, here's the cards i'm working on. My son makes a comic about this characters so as a gift I went looking for suitable figures, bringing me to find only this guy but x3 + gilbert x2. And so, that's the inspiration for this over stocked characters :mad:. My son's 9 so i'm doing an intro level version too but to be fair by now he's got the hang of the game and might be already more adept than me at remembering the triggers generally. Still, gonna whittle him down next after some play testing to see.

The were first Vydar, but when we grasped the Revna theme.... :O It's so, so perfect for a deranged scientist into undead + mech, and flipping BUGS!!! Just wow... We're buzzing over that :D

I'm not looking for a big critique just thought it's all pretty neat.

The issue re bonding is Gilbert as a predator being bonded with the fyorlag* spider. I had the brain wave of going Arachnid bonding on Oakenstein, not just Gilbert as originally. Felt good making him flexible with army builds of Spider/ Eisenek/ Soulborg. But then that chain bonding looks way too good :/
I know there's plenty of ways to disconnect the bonding, but Gilbert being a predator and bonding was such a nice link as the 'Alpha Spider' :D

Our ability to play test is totally sandboxed by the limits of my collection and we've not anything close to the potential synergies. I basically have 2 sets of Soulborg :/ ; more incoming + Eisenek and we'll get some spider 3ds... a bit rich those little beasties!

Gilbert, btw, is not visible from the opposite side (LURK) and that's basically the theme he's built around.


[SPOILER="Custom cards"]

Dr-Oakenstein (1).jpg

Gilbert-Mutant Spider COMPLETE.jpg

[/SPOILER]



Anyway, i know some will see these as abominations breaking too many rules, but some won't and they might be fun .
Apologies, tried to get spoiler working... it didn't
 
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delete ="Custom Cards" and the spoiler should work.

You have a lot going on those cards and much of it is really vague which makes it hard to evaluate.

There is no explanation of how primary and secondary Tech works which makes the second power difficult to understand, no explanation of what overclock is.
How does hacking work? No explanation of repel, like I know what you are going for but that needs to be spelled out, not implied.

The first power is at least four powers in one, that is not great. Also cannot just hand out Flying like that in classic.
Last power looks OK except Gilbert is a Mutant Arachnid and the power says just Arachnid which is different the same way Knights and Death Knights are different.

Gilbert: I think Lurk works properly worded, no explanation of Rush.
Second power should be 'on the defender's next turn' r this round not this turn because that would be your turn.
Third power: If Range 3 means Gilbert has to be within 3 spaces then the power needs to say that. Also do not think classic allows for swap language, pretty sure that has to be fully spelled out.
I do not think climb works in classic either, need something like after moving up or down.

Main thing I would say is you are trying to pack way too much on a single card, especially for classic Heroscape. A lot of those have a single power.
But for your own home customs you can of course do whatever you like, it just makes it really hard to evaluate for folks not used to such things.
good luck
 
delete ="Custom Cards" and the spoiler should work.

You have a lot going on those cards and much of it is really vague which makes it hard to evaluate.

There is no explanation of how primary and secondary Tech works which makes the second power difficult to understand, no explanation of what overclock is.
How does hacking work? No explanation of repel, like I know what you are going for but that needs to be spelled out, not implied.

The first power is at least four powers in one, that is not great. Also cannot just hand out Flying like that in classic.
Last power looks OK except Gilbert is a Mutant Arachnid and the power says just Arachnid which is different the same way Knights and Death Knights are different.

Gilbert: I think Lurk works properly worded, no explanation of Rush.
Second power should be 'on the defender's next turn' r this round not this turn because that would be your turn.
Third power: If Range 3 means Gilbert has to be within 3 spaces then the power needs to say that. Also do not think classic allows for swap language, pretty sure that has to be fully spelled out.
I do not think climb works in classic either, need something like after moving up or down.

Main thing I would say is you are trying to pack way too much on a single card, especially for classic Heroscape. A lot of those have a single power.
But for your own home customs you can of course do whatever you like, it just makes it really hard to evaluate for folks not used to such things.
good luck
Hi there Tornado, and thanks very much for the excellent analysis. Great the have the clarity re the parameters I should want to hold to as I definitely took the loose-reins approach with my first attempt. That being the case, the detail you went to is much appreciated!

So I'd like to come back another version based on what you said, just a couple of questions;
You say Classic Heroscape is that meaning everything officially released?
Re 'defenders turn': So i'm wrong to assume 'Turn' comprises of a SET of Order-markers (say, OM: 1) being revealed by each player? Is there terminology for that? I understand 'Round' begins and ends (mostly) with Placing OMs and completing OM actions.
Not that it matters much but what's the general view on using multiple figures for a single character and has it been used in Classic before?
Would the real Dr Frankenstein be a viable entry into the high level custom HS?

On yr final point, Yep, definitely too much. I did think that a simplified version (for my son) could end up the more viable but it was all theory so far as the figure's in the post, so to speak.

thanks again for the effort. DrO
 
So, I just did a clarified version of the original. Still wordy but I think I addressed the explanations better thanks to the advice and I feel it reads much better than the original. Because pairing down the abilities will need take into account a rebalance it will take more time. Just to point out though, this version has a lot of built in vulnerabilities even though it might appear overpowered. It's a bit of a skill test card (my saying that is a bit of a joke as i've barely played 10 games and everyone is a total novice using my collection <>) and I do like hyper flexibility vs utilisation of that flexibility.

Spoiler Alert!


Edit. Slight adjustment
 
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Re 'defenders turn': So i'm wrong to assume 'Turn' comprises of a SET of Order-markers (say, OM: 1) being revealed by each player? Is there terminology for that? I understand 'Round' begins and ends (mostly) with Placing OMs and completing OM actions.

A "Turn" consists of everything from the time you reveal an order marker to the time you declare that turn completed. Multiple figures' may activate during a single turn.

A "Round" begins with setting order markers and rolling initiative, and ends after all players have completed all 3 turns, and any cleanup actions take place (For example, rolling for lava field damage).

So, I just did a clarified version of the original. Still wordy but I think I addressed the explanations better thanks to the advice and I feel it reads much better than the original. Because pairing down the abilities will need take into account a rebalance it will take more time. Just to point out though, this version has a lot of built in vulnerabilities even though it might appear overpowered. It's a bit of a skill test card (my saying that is a bit of a joke as i've barely played 10 games and everyone is a total novice using my collection <>) and I do like hyper flexibility vs utilisation of that flexibility.

Spoiler Alert!


Edit. Slight adjustment
Really neat ideas here! I think there's a lot of unexplored design space for a figure that switches modes like this by switching figures out.

A couple questions.

1. "He may change mode if you roll a d20", what does that mean exactly? When do you see him switching modes midgame?

2. I like the idea of the AUX tech forcing him to switch modes. Thematically, that feels like the equivalent of his tech overheating and forcing him to change. "Tech used more than twice in a round loses its prime until the end of Oakenstein's turn" Could you clarify that please? Are you intending for the function to be something like: "Oakenstein cannot use the same Tech (1) ability more than twice during the same round."

3. Drone 1, by "Defend twice", do you mean rerolling defense dice that don't show shields, or perhaps counting shields as double like the Sentinels of Jandar's Shields of Valor?

4. Just a recommended wording that I think gets at what you're attempting- "TESLA COIL (1) Before attacking, you may set Oakenstein's Range and Attack values to match those of an adjacent Soulborg or Eisenek."
 
A "Turn" consists of everything from the time you reveal an order marker to the time you declare that turn completed. Multiple figures' may activate during a single turn.

A "Round" begins with setting order markers and rolling initiative, and ends after all players have completed all 3 turns, and any cleanup actions take place (For example, rolling for lava field damage).



Really neat ideas here! I think there's a lot of unexplored design space for a figure that switches modes like this by switching figures out.

A couple questions.

1. "He may change mode if you roll a d20", what does that mean exactly? When do you see him switching modes midgame?

2. I like the idea of the AUX tech forcing him to switch modes. Thematically, that feels like the equivalent of his tech overheating and forcing him to change. "Tech used more than twice in a round loses its prime until the end of Oakenstein's turn" Could you clarify that please? Are you intending for the function to be something like: "Oakenstein cannot use the same Tech (1) ability more than twice during the same round."

3. Drone 1, by "Defend twice", do you mean rerolling defense dice that don't show shields, or perhaps counting shields as double like the Sentinels of Jandar's Shields of Valor?

4. Just a recommended wording that I think gets at what you're attempting- "TESLA COIL (1) Before attacking, you may set Oakenstein's Range and Attack values to match those of an adjacent Soulborg or Eisenek."
Hi Holy Divern ty for the clarification re Turn/Round.

Thanks and happy you like them and I appreciate the questions. Let me clarify

1- In my mind, the theme is that you Rolling a D-20 offers Oakentein a moment to switch modes ('Switch' might be better). So, for instance, rolling for initiative offers an opportunity, or, (as i was sneaking in with Gilberts last ability) any other reason you happen to roll a D-20.
The 3 modes all offer a very different set of abilities so timing the right Mode is exactly the challenge set out. Rolling d20/using Aux are the only ways to prep for the conditions you face.

2: Exactly and this is crucial to the balance. If you use a Tech more than twice, you lose the prime ability, period. I called it Overclock on the first version as you can indeed fully Overclock, for instance: you can use Drone (1) five times in one turn but that's busted then and you've only 'Fly Move 3' in that mode thereafter ( I meant to state 'thereafter') Also, I do literally intend you roll your defence twice and add it up... i'll get back to this.
Also, you can go ape on the Gunarm first ability (Mini we call it) hoping to keep rolling a blank, but it's broken at end of turn. Also, you MUST attack again after a blank (should add 'Must') alternating 1/2 is great but if you miss a blank you don't get to switch (not sure if this is advantageous enough to...maybe 4-d first ability)

3: As i mentioned, actually getting two rolls of 4DD... but you must decide to roll twice before you begin defence. This is surprisingly tricky, as you usually have multiple ranged threats. Vs 3 skulls do/don't you use the ability before you roll? It's not so easy to choose. (maybe his defence might be 3, not sure)

4: to clarify - the theme is he actually hacks the soulborg/Eisenek so attacks with their normal attack individually (all adjacent). This is his main threat and has major potential output. but still poses plenty of positioning/ordering challenges. Note, can 'hack' enemie Soulborg/Eisenek (Evil Laugh; 'hehehe')... Is it OP, i know it's pretty deadly oO

Thanks very much for the input! helped a lot and will see what will work, DrO

Edit: some better spacing and explanation.
 
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There's the Gilbert as well. Oakenstein still v wordy I know.

Spoiler Alert!
 

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Classic means based in Valhalla like C3V/SoV. Not classic example is Marvel/C3G.
The complexity you are going for is more common in C3G for example.
Using multiple figures for the same character is never done as far as I know. Even in C3G I do not think it has been done, yet. I have something I may attempt in the future.
Not sure exactly what you are asking about the real Dr. Frankenstein custom.
Pretty sure C3V/SoV are against using known characters like that but not my expertise. Absolutely an option in C3G as we already have Frankenstein's monster.
I think HolyDiver did a good job of answering the rest. Classic is far from my expertise so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.
 
"Turn" is a bit more complicated than what HolyDiver explained. Thanks to powers like bonding, a "turn" is the full activation of a unit - both the moving and attacking phases with that Army Card. This is often correlated with Order Markers, but there are many cases (like bonding) where you will have multiple turns within an Order Marker. I believe the cleanest way to go about this is to have the power in effect "until the next time you reveal a numbered order marker".
 
Ok, cool! The doctor is starting to click with me, how exactly he'll work. Definitely a complex card, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially of course for a homebrew custom. I'd be really curious to give him a try. If you're open to it, I'd also like to try rewriting some of these abilities to fit a little easier with standard Heroscape wordings, though I doubt that would fit on the card.

Now for Gilbert!

So while Gilbert is in Lurk, he is that alternate sculpt where he is hiding behind that bit of ground, which blocks line of sight. "After a completed enemy move, Gilbert may move" is that for every enemy figure that moves at all? If so, that's very powerful, especially against squads that may let him move 6-10 spaces per turn. I really like his other two abilities though, his Binding Web triggering twice if he's lurking is very thematic.

Let me try to explain Protect the Master, make sure I'm understanding it:

PROTECT THE MASTER
After rolling defense dice with Dr Oakenstein within 3 clear sight spaces, if Dr Oakenstein receives enough wounds from a normal or special attack to be destroyed, instead, you may switch Gilbert with Dr Oakenstein. If you do, Gilbert becomes the defending figure for that attack and rolls 1 defense die. Any figure moved with Protect the Master never receives leaving engagement attacks.
 
Ok, cool! The doctor is starting to click with me, how exactly he'll work. Definitely a complex card, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially of course for a homebrew custom. I'd be really curious to give him a try. If you're open to it, I'd also like to try rewriting some of these abilities to fit a little easier with standard Heroscape wordings, though I doubt that would fit on the card.

Now for Gilbert!

So while Gilbert is in Lurk, he is that alternate sculpt where he is hiding behind that bit of ground, which blocks line of sight. "After a completed enemy move, Gilbert may move" is that for every enemy figure that moves at all? If so, that's very powerful, especially against squads that may let him move 6-10 spaces per turn. I really like his other two abilities though, his Binding Web triggering twice if he's lurking is very thematic.

Let me try to explain Protect the Master, make sure I'm understanding it:

PROTECT THE MASTER
After rolling defense dice with Dr Oakenstein within 3 clear sight spaces, if Dr Oakenstein receives enough wounds from a normal or special attack to be destroyed, instead, you may switch Gilbert with Dr Oakenstein. If you do, Gilbert becomes the defending figure for that attack and rolls 1 defense die. Any figure moved with Protect the Master never receives leaving engagement attacks.
Hi again. Yes, I think collaboration is a great way forward so if you think you can rewrite that would be super. On the other side, i do intend to seriously reduce the Dr. Oakenshield book now, so I should have some version done in an hour or two.

Gilbert: Re Move - not every figure, every ''completed move'' which i thought implied a full squad/individual as I assumed that a squad's movement is basically a single action. I think I can be more specific anyway ... eg 'after your opponent completes a move'

Protect the master: yep, seems right to me

Edit, oops, lots of quotations! Btw, gonna open a Oakenstein custom on the relevant page.
 
Streamlined version 1. Made him more rely on bonding to help switch mode. Bit tired here. see ye tomorrow. Hmm that's a mess (censored! :D)

Spoiler Alert!
 
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Hi, so I tightened up the MANY leaks on the first version (apologies, i'm still getting used to the terminology and am less alert as I should be to how different an intent can be from the reality!).

Drone - Thematically it's a scanning bot offering intelligence that allows for choosing a more advantageous outcome. Rerolling initiative could be v powerful but could fail, leaving him vulnerable.

Tesla Coil - Thematically Oakenstein can hack the cyber species of HS. Personally, I like the idea that he can hack an enemy Soulborg/Eisenek to attack their allies...I think it's also allowed the they could be made to attack themselves? :unsure: :'D

Arachnid Bonding: Still got the issue with chain bonding from Fyorlag Spiders to (predator) Gilbert. I assume that's too strong and needs adjusting? I can make him a 'Hunter', but i do prefer predator :/


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