A Melee Perspective on the HeroScape Power Rankings

[Matthias Maccabeus]

There's a handful of power rankings out there that are used when "grading" units and / or armies. None of them really match with my perspective of the game. I originally did this 10 years ago and have had a lot of thoughts since then.

The best way to view this perspective of rankings is "I'm looking at this through the lens of a mostly pure melee (melee bonding at that) lens.” For those of you that don't know my play-style, I very rarely play any range. I would say over my tournament career (I quit keeping track like 6 year ago and I was in the 400s for tournament games played) melee units have been at least 90% of my overall army composition of my over a dozen years of tournament play. So that is the perspective I am approaching this from.


A+
10th Regiment of Foot
Captain America
Grimnak
Heavy Gruts
Knights of Weston
Sir Gilbert

A
Airborne Elite
Axegrinders of the Burning Forge
Blastatrons
Deathreavers
Gladiatrons
Kaemon Awa
Knight Primus Adelbern
Marcus Decimus Gallus


A-
Darrak Ambershard
Marro Warriors
Mogrimm Forgehammer
Roman Legionnaires
Silver Surfer
Warriors of Ashra

B+
4th Massachusetts Line
Dorim the Bulkhead Brawler
Charos
Death Chasers of Thesk
Eldgrim the Viking Champion
Fen Hydra
Fire Elemental
Isamu
Krav Maga Agents
Major Q9
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider
Nilfheim
Zelrig

B
Agent Skahen
Air Elemental
Alastair McDirk
Blade Gruts
Crixus
Eltahale
Ewashia Master of Tides
Greenscale Warriors
Iron Man
Krug
Laglor
Marro Dividers
Moltenclaw
Me-Burq-Sa
Mimring
Ne-Gok-Sa
Nakita Agents
Ordo Borealis
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (RotV)
Sacred Band
Syvarris
Tarn Viking Warriors
Theracus
Tornak
Vorid Glide Strikers
Wing Commander Tuck Harrigan
Xenithrax the Vineweaver

B-
Admiral EJ-1M
Arkmer
Arrow Gruts
Ashigaru Harquebus
Brave Arrow
Braxas
Black Wyrmling
Capuan Gladiators
Cyprein Esenwein
Festering Honor Guard
Finn the Viking Champion
Goblin Cutters
Heirloom
Horned Skull Brutes
Iron Lich Viscerot
Izumi Samurai
Knight Irene
Kurrok the Elementalist
Frostclaw Paladins
Major Q10
Major Q11
Marcu Esenwein
Marro Drones
Migol Ironwill
Mohican River Tribe
Ogre Pulverizer
Queen Maladrix the Conquerer
Red Wyrmling
Swog Rider
Tor-Kul-Na
Mezzodemon Warmongers
Tagawa Samurai
Tandros Kreel
Thanos
Thyraxis Dragoon
Valguard
Venoc Warlord
Warforged Soldiers
Zombies of Morindan

C+
Anubian Wolves
Armoc Vipers
Aubrien Archers
Brunak
Concan the Kyrie Warrior
Death Knights of Valkrill
Dumutef Guard
Fia Bonny the Void Siren
Fyorlag Spiders
Granite Guardians
Hellforge Mandukor
Hulk
Ice Troll Berzerker
Loviatak the Kyrie Warrior
MacDirk Warriors
Major X17
Microcorp Agents
Mind Flayer Mastermind
Minions of Utgar
Oathbound Legionnaires
Oathbound Phalanx
Ornak
Otonashi
Phantom Knights
Protectors of Ullar
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (AoA)
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior (SotM)
Seige
Sentinels of Jandar
Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM)
Sgt. Drake Alexander (AoA)
Shurrak
Sonya Esenwein
Spartacus
Spider-man
Tagawa Samurai Archers
Thorgrim the Viking Champion
Wyvern
Venom

C
Agent Carr
Atlaga the Kyrie Warrior
Blue Wyrmling
Drow Chanifighter
Earth Elemental
Exiles of the Sundered Sea
Gorillanators
Guilty McCreech
Halushia. Scion of the Wild
Iron Golem
James Murphy
Johnny “Shotgun” Sullivan
Killian Vane III
Knaves of the Silver Scimitar
Kozuke Samurai
Kumiko
Marrden Hounds
Marrden Nagrubs
Necrotech Wraithriders
Onshu the Welkineye
Othkurik the Black Dragon
Rhogar Dragonspine
Sgt. Drake Alexander (RotV)
Sir Denrick
Sonlen (SotM)
Sonlen (AoA)
Venoc Vipers
Water Elemental
Werewolf Lord
White Wyrmling
Zetacron

C-
Abomination
Ashigaru Yari
Bok-Bur-Na
Cornelius Breech, the Derelict Prince
Deadeye Dan
Deathstalkers
Emirroon
Estivara
Evar Scarcarver
Frost Giant of Morh
Glinerva the Kyrie Warrior
Jorhdawn
Kato Katsuro
Kelda the Kyrie Warrior
Kyntela Gwyn
Marro Hive
Marro Stingers
Mielki the Kyrie Warrior
Morsbane
Ninjas of the Northern Wind
Omnicron Snipers
Parmenio
Quasatch Hunters
Raackchott Steward of Death
Red Skull
Runa
Shaolin Monks
Sir Hawthorne
Su-Bak-Na
Sujoah
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior
Ulginesh



D+
Ana Karithon
Chardris
Deathwalker 8000
Deepwyrm Drow
Dzu - Teh
Elite Onyx Vipers
Erevan Sunshadow
Feral Troll
Greater Ice Elemental
Jotun
Khosumet the Darklord
Kilkorax the Kyrie Warrior
Kira the Springrunner
Master of the Hunt
Mika Connour
Retarius
Saylind the Kyrie Warrior
Sharwin Wildborn
Shiori (AoA)
Tul-Bak-Ra
Warden 816
Wolves of Badru
Wo-Sa-Ga
Dr. Doom

D
Acolarh
Brandis Skyhunter
Dund
Empress Kiova
Gurei-Oni
Iskra Esenwein
Master Win Chiu Woo
Misarex the Kyrie Warrior
Moriko
Omnicron Repulsors
Queen Qhyrion
Rechets of Bogdan
Shades of Bleakwoode
Sir Dupuis
Torin
Xiamara the Kyrie Warrior
Zettian Guards

D-
Deathwalker 9000
Einar Emperium
Kee-Mo-Shi
Marro Drudge
Obsidian Guards
Pelloth
Sahuagin Raider
Shiori
Sudema

F
Deathwalker 7000
Grok Riders
Hatamoto Taro
Roman Archers
Templar Cavalry

 

[nate the dawg]

What an interesting take on the power rankings! Personally, I feel that the Fen Hydra should've gone in with the A- crowd, but I've had an inordinate amount of success with it (usually paired with Ornak et al). I would also think that Venom would be a bit higher, but I've never been in a mixed-Marvel tourney, so what do I know?

Oh, and surprise, a format that still can't help out the 7000...not surprising! Nice job!

 

[killergoat72]

Earth Elemental Deserves Better!

 

[ElvenEnvy]

The first thing I noticed was the 4th in the B+ grade. I was surprised given the melee focus that Warriors of Ashra are only C+. I think it's a pretty good take.
I'm not so sure about including the Wave D3 though, its kind of going out on a limb.

 

[nate the dawg]

I'm not so sure about including the Wave D3 though, its kind of going out on a limb.

Well, even using the standard power rankings when making an army is just theoryscape until you have a handful of games with a particular unit under your belt. Why not include D3? Common sense and the drawing of comparison to other units seems reasonable.

 

[Matthias Maccabeus]

What an interesting take on the power rankings! Personally, I feel that the Fen Hydra should've gone in with the A- crowd, but I've had an inordinate amount of success with it (usually paired with Ornak et al). I would also think that Venom would be a bit higher, but I've never been in a mixed-Marvel tourney, so what do I know?

Oh, and surprise, a format that still can't help out the 7000...not surprising! Nice job!

The hydra has only been out for a short period of time so I don't want to give it too much credit yet.

@killergoat -
Think so? In my experiences with him (it), he's been less than impressive

@elvenenvy -
I can't remember the last time I lost to a 4th Mass army with knights or heavies. Also with the WoA, I still have to keep in mind that range is still prevalent in today's meta-game. D3 - Everybody's seen the cards and have done some play-testing, so I just took a stab at it. I could be way off.

Thanks for the feedback everybody so far!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

-If 5 of the 6 A units are melee then it would seem that using any of those is girler than using any ranged that isn't Q9

-Not many are going to go along with Nilfheim and Zelrig being only B. Both have had very recent success

-Tandros Kreel and Theracus having a higher rating than Morsbane is a crime .

 

[padlock]

Interesting list. I'm surprised the Ogre Warhulk didn't rank higher. I'd imagine that against melee, he'd be pretty frightening.

 

[Rich10]

I can't remember the last time I lost to a 4th Mass army with knights or heavies.

To me, the 4th Mass vs melee matchup is very map dependent. If you have a big open map, say Table of the Giants, the melee army is in real trouble. On the other hand, play Sir Gilbert/KoW vs 4th Mass on Fulcrum, and my money's on the melee army.

I was glad that Braxas was so highly ranked. In playtesting, I couldn't beat Braxas/Raelin/Greenscales with a melee army (KoW, HG or Dwarves).

I was surprised that Q9 and the Deathreavers didn't make up a category called the "Girly Girl Units".

 

[flameslayer93]

F Units that you wonder if the design team was listening to Tom Petty or Jimmy Hendrix when they play-tested them
Deathwalker 7000
Grok Riders
Hatamoto Taro
Roman Archers
Templar Cavalry
Zettian Guards

I don't particularly agree with the ratings for some of these. In particular DW7K, and the Roman Archers. Charging the bomb is suicide for any melee unit. IMHO, DW7K should be a C-(on this scale). The Roman Archers hold a specific niche, and that is to act as high defense busters. On this scale, they are plenty capable of bombarding your high defense melee heroes and pounding squads into the ground. The hieght advantage theory still holds with their short-range combat while against melee. I'd go with a D+ rating.

 

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Interesting list. I'm surprised the Ogre Warhulk didn't rank higher. I'd imagine that against melee, he'd be pretty frightening.

That's a very valid point. His stock will probably go up too as the DCoT hit the tourney scene. I know I'm very excited to use them myself. I'll keep a close eye on him.

@RICH10
It may be map dependent, but I'd still say the knights beat them 60/40 on a ranged favored map. I should do a color thing like Jexik and use pink for Girly units...

@Flamesayer
If I sat down against you (or anybody for that matter) with any melee bonding army and you had DW7K and / or Roman Archers and you actually killed half of my army I would wear a pink dress for a week.

 

[flameslayer93]

@Flamesayer
If I sat down against you (or anybody for that matter) with any melee bonding army and you had DW7K and / or Roman Archers and you actually killed half of my army I would wear a pink dress for a week.

The reason I don't think you would do as well as you assume, is because the Roman Archers are also meant to be played as a team of trappings. The whole army isn't supposed to be little one defense soldiers.
Imagine it to be like this:

I had some archers and DW7k. The total isn't my whole team, but they were the ones I built the army around.

As your bonding hero comes around(for this we will use typical Human Champions like Finn or Hawthorne), the Deathwalker is obviously faster than your knights(KoW move is 4, DW7K move is 6) and should be able to get to one of your champions. In this event, I will have considered to have inflicted 2 wounds on one of your bonding heroes. Your Champion isn't just going to shake that off either. If your champion is within threat range of one of my Romans, they volley on him. Chances are, if your Champion can attack one of my Romans, they can reach your Champion. If your Champion cannot attack a Roman, then the ones who conveniently positioned themselves on various higher spots on the map while you were busy dragging your army over here(road or not, it can still be a lengthy process to bring a big enough swarm to not get completely pounded by Romans who are playing to counter you) put holes in Knights. 3 attack versus 4 defense(with dwindling numbers on each side mind you) can punch through fairly well. When your knights attack the pod conviently located on the ground ready to Volley at a Champion, it is unlikely that all of them are engaged. So an impromptu Volley can occur.

Let's imagine you got my DW7K tied down. I am relatively confident that he can survive an attack or 2 of 3. Then, well it's time to say arrow volley or just wiggle around to get engaged with as many things as possible before going BOOM! If your Knights are there on a road, I'll be glad to nail an nearby champion with the volley. You still don't want to disengage unless you need to risk the loss of a knight. And then even worse, you'd be untying my Deathwalker. Surround the DW7K with 2 or 3 knights and he already earned his points by getting rid of something more valuable by kills. By getting rid of some of the swarm.

These theory-scaped results are assumed on the following builds:

Knightsx4 280
Finn 360
Hawthorne 450//////18 figs

Roman Archersx6 350
DW7K 450///////19 figs

It would be assumed that our builds do not have to be exact. More or less, I'm playing Trap&Kill. Your playing Bonding Swarm. Your knights can't move quickly enough on many maps w/out road(and more often than not, you are going to be somewhat constricted if you wanted to get the bonus, likely feeding me kills). Only about half of my Romans have to move at all and until your knights are out about halfway, they have plenty of time to get ready. Then I scatter the OMs on DW7K to follow my initial strategy.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If I sat down against you (or anybody for that matter) with any melee bonding army and you had DW7K and / or Roman Archers and you actually killed half of my army I would wear a pink dress for a week.

I would be willing to bet I have an army with Roman Archers that easily will kill 1/2 of your melee bonding army:

5x 10th
1x Roman Archers
Raelin
----------------
510

 

[Xn F M]

Nice Rankings MM, and I acually agree with most of them. The two that really stand out to me here, are Guilty McCreech, and the Sentinels of Jandar.

By your own definitions Guilty belongs in the C to C- range. He's the most reliable thirty point hero. he has the advantage of having a normal, double attack of 2 (height gets that up to two attacks of three, which is one attack short of a "productive" turn). While some of the Wyrmlings or Elementals might have more specific battlefield roles, Guilty is the go-to guy if you're thirty points shy. That's his niche, when you're army is 30 points shy, barring a couple of builds (Knights come to mind) Guilty McCreech is your Man; he's so generally useful that he makes sense as the last thirty points in most any army.

As far as the Sentinels go, I would think you of all people would recognize their worth. I was actually *this* close to running them at NHSD, after they tore-up my Greenscale/Zelrig army. Sentinels are good for the same reasons Raelin is, you just distribute the cost of drafting Raelin across your squads. Even against Big Z, they just don't die. Looking back, I'm actually surprised we didn't see more Sentinel builds when Atlaga came out . . . .

Now, who's going to make the Definitive List of Power Rankings (we have three sets now right?)

 

[Frylock]

@Flamesayer
If I sat down against you (or anybody for that matter) with any melee bonding army and you had DW7K and / or Roman Archers and you actually killed half of my army I would wear a pink dress for a week.

The reason I don't think you would do as well as you assume, is because the Roman Archers are also meant to be played as a team of trappings. The whole army isn't supposed to be little one defense soldiers.
Imagine it to be like this:

I had some archers and DW7k. The total isn't my whole team, but they were the ones I built the army around.

As your bonding hero comes around(for this we will use typical Human Champions like Finn or Hawthorne), the Deathwalker is obviously faster than your knights(KoW move is 4, DW7K move is 6) and should be able to get to one of your champions. In this event, I will have considered to have inflicted 2 wounds on one of your bonding heroes. Your Champion isn't just going to shake that off either. If your champion is within threat range of one of my Romans, they volley on him. Chances are, if your Champion can attack one of my Romans, they can reach your Champion. If your Champion cannot attack a Roman, then the ones who conveniently positioned themselves on various higher spots on the map while you were busy dragging your army over here(road or not, it can still be a lengthy process to bring a big enough swarm to not get completely pounded by Romans who are playing to counter you) put holes in Knights. 3 attack versus 4 defense(with dwindling numbers on each side mind you) can punch through fairly well. When your knights attack the pod conviently located on the ground ready to Volley at a Champion, it is unlikely that all of them are engaged. So an impromptu Volley can occur.

Let's imagine you got my DW7K tied down. I am relatively confident that he can survive an attack or 2 of 3. Then, well it's time to say arrow volley or just wiggle around to get engaged with as many things as possible before going BOOM! If your Knights are there on a road, I'll be glad to nail an nearby champion with the volley. You still don't want to disengage unless you need to risk the loss of a knight. And then even worse, you'd be untying my Deathwalker. Surround the DW7K with 2 or 3 knights and he already earned his points by getting rid of something more valuable by kills. By getting rid of some of the swarm.

These theory-scaped results are assumed on the following builds:

Knightsx4 280
Finn 360
Hawthorne 450//////18 figs

Roman Archersx6 350
DW7K 450///////19 figs

It would be assumed that our builds do not have to be exact. More or less, I'm playing Trap&Kill. Your playing Bonding Swarm. Your knights can't move quickly enough on many maps w/out road(and more often than not, you are going to be somewhat constricted if you wanted to get the bonus, likely feeding me kills). Only about half of my Romans have to move at all and until your knights are out about halfway, they have plenty of time to get ready. Then I scatter the OMs on DW7K to follow my initial strategy.

1. DW7K hates knights. Just one little knight can completely tie him down. Then the knights could completely ignore him. You wouldn't want to risk a double-disengage from the knight just to put 2 wounds on a Champion. The best strategy against Da Bomb is just engage him with a single squaddie, and forget about him.

2. Keep in mind that although the knights are slow, the archers are just as slow. And the knights are moving 5 figures per turn, as opposed to three. Not to mention the knight army only has one place to put OMs vs. 2 for your army. You probably wouldn't have time to set up a perfect pod on height before the knights reach you.

3. Even if you somehow managed to get all 6 squads of archers on height, the knights would still tear through them. 3 attacks of 3 against 4 defense<4-5 attacks of 3 against 2 defense.

4. As far as volley is concerned, I would be happy if you were targeting my heroes instead of my squads. Those four squads of knights could beat that army without any champions. You'd be much better off just going for the knights.

I applaud your efforts to use underplayed "bad" units in armies, but the reality of it is the Roman Archers and DWs are outclassed by better units like knights. That doesn't mean you shouldn't play them, though.

 

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Nice Rankings MM, and I acually agree with most of them. The two that really stand out to me here, are Guilty McCreech, and the Sentinels of Jandar.

By your own definitions Guilty belongs in the C to C- range. He's the most reliable thirty point hero. he has the advantage of having a normal, double attack of 2 (height gets that up to two attacks of three, which is one attack short of a "productive" turn). While some of the Wyrmlings or Elementals might have more specific battlefield roles, Guilty is the go-to guy if you're thirty points shy. That's his niche, when you're army is 30 points shy, barring a couple of builds (Knights come to mind) Guilty McCreech is your Man; he's so generally useful that he makes sense as the last thirty points in most any army.

As far as the Sentinels go, I would think you of all people would recognize their worth. I was actually *this* close to running them at NHSD, after they tore-up my Greenscale/Zelrig army. Sentinels are good for the same reasons Raelin is, you just distribute the cost of drafting Raelin across your squads. Even against Big Z, they just don't die. Looking back, I'm actually surprised we didn't see more Sentinel builds when Atlaga came out . . . .

Now, who's going to make the Definitive List of Power Rankings (we have three sets now right?)

I love the Sentinels, I mean c'mon how can you not love angels with giant war hammers?

However except for Rev's 4th x 4 / SoJ x 2 and I know one time Karhma had success with SoJ x 1, they aren't often in the top of tournaments. A C+ does mean they are better than average since C means average.

I just think Guilty gets outshined by the other filler options more often than not.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

However except for Rev's 4th x 4 / SoJ x 2 and I know one time Karhma had success with SoJ x 1, they aren't often in the top of tournaments. A C+ does mean they are better than average since C means average.

Yeah, how could you compare the Sentinel's sucess to the vast Tournament success of the River Tribe, Brave Arrow, Capuans and Theracus. The Sentinels have only won the above Tournaments whereas Theracus and Brave Arrow consistently are in tournament winning armies.

 

[dok]

DA's snark aside, I guess I'm confused as to exactly what perspective you're writing from here.

If it's "what's done well and does well in my experience", then I can't see stingers at a B-. They're consistent winners in the hands of good players.

If it's "what effective with and against a melee player", then I don't really see Q9 as an A+. He's really good, obviously, but he's not too scary to knights/heavies/axegrinders. He's tough for knights and axegrinders to beat if there are rats in the way, but that's more due to the rats than Q9 himself. Stingersx3 + ratsx3 + Raelin is at least as scary to knights as Q9 + ratsx3 + Raelin, and potentially more because they can get start dealing 3 attacks of 4 if they can find some height. (And it's much more scary to axegrinders.)

 

[Matthias Maccabeus]

DA's snark aside, I guess I'm confused as to exactly what perspective you're writing from here.

If it's "what's done well and does well in my experience", then I can't see stingers at a B-. They're consistent winners in the hands of good players.

If it's "what effective with and against a melee player", then I don't really see Q9 as an A+. He's really good, obviously, but he's not too scary to knights/heavies/axegrinders. He's tough for knights and axegrinders to beat if there are rats in the way, but that's more due to the rats than Q9 himself. Stingersx3 + ratsx3 + Raelin is at least as scary to knights as Q9 + ratsx3 + Raelin, and potentially more because they can get start dealing 3 attacks of 4 if they can find some height. (And it's much more scary to axegrinders.)

I didn't even see his comment, so no worries. I mean he is the reason the ignore button was invented...

It's more (and perhaps I should change the title) from the perspective of a melee enthusiasts players perspective. Does that make sense?

I figured my Stinger rating would be the most controversial with players. In my experiences with melee, especially melee bonding Stingers just lose almost every time. If it weren't for the back-stab of Hawthrone I think my tourney record against stingers with melee bonding armies would be like 15-0 (or something very close to that).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The 1 player that fears Theracus more than Stingers it seems. Have to fear that 1 attack per OM and being able to transport 1 figure for 1 turn.

Also, considering there is no ignore button there is a particular irony in the comment

 

[Aldin]

The 1 player that fears Theracus more than Stingers it seems. Have to fear that 1 attack per OM and being able to transport 1 figure for 1 turn.

Also, considering there is no ignore button there is a particular irony in the comment

Sure there is, all I do is click your name and voila! Add Devil's Advocate to Your Ignore List is an option.

More to the point, melee has plenty of reasons to both fear and appreciate Theracus more than Stingers. Theracus provides mobility which can be difficult for melee to counter or which can be very appreciated by melee in getting important units into useful positions sooner.

~Aldin, ascendingly

 

[Filthy the Clown]

I would suspect that the Phantom Knight's are walking the line between A- and B+ on your scale, with the only real disadvantage being a lack of bonding. Sure, Insubstantial is one of their stronger attributes when dealing with ranged, normal attacks. However, their mobility, coupled with stealth flying, really lets them choose targets of opportunity...Which seems like a real advantage when playing against a wall of melee. Of course, the unmodified defense of 4 does not hurt either (of the A and A- list, only the Knights of Weston have this, out of the gate).

With this in mind, what is your reasoning for keeping them at B+, rather than A-? The lack of bonding/lack of fourth squad member (either of which the squads on the A and A- list have)?

 

[Matthias Maccabeus]

I would suspect that the Phantom Knight's are walking the line between A- and B+ on your scale, with the only real disadvantage being a lack of bonding. Sure, Insubstantial is one of their stronger attributes when dealing with ranged, normal attacks. However, their mobility, coupled with stealth flying, really lets them choose targets of opportunity...Which seems like a real advantage when playing against a wall of melee. Of course, the unmodified defense of 4 does not hurt either (of the A and A- list, only the Knights of Weston have this, out of the gate).

With this in mind, what is your reasoning for keeping them at B+, rather than A-? The lack of bonding/lack of fourth squad member (either of which the squads on the A and A- list have)?

I think it's a combination of the fact they haven't been out very long and there's only 3 of them. They had a very strong performance at the TTO, but I'm not sold that it was the PKs more than the 10th in that army. The PKs and Hydra are definitely on the rise and if they continually do well like they have, becoming an A- won't be a problem.

@Aldin You said that better than I ever could.

 

[yagyuninja]

Quick question, Matthias. Have you played much against Silver Surfer with pure melee? How did it work out? I see you put him down in the Bs so it must not have been too frightening.

 

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Quick question, Matthias. Have you played much against Silver Surfer with pure melee? How did it work out? I see you put him down in the Bs so it must not have been too frightening.

I would say probably not, however please remember that a B is a good ranking. Just because a certain unit is not an A doesn't mean it sucks. I was happy to get Bs in College.