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  #1  
Old November 9th, 2021, 07:33 PM
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TheBlackN TheBlackN is offline
 
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TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Balance/Rereleases:
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Customs

A lot of these are a work in progress but am curious if anything screams broken.

Necron Praetorians (Added 11/9/21, Last Updated 11/13/21)
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Syrin (Added 11/9/21)
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Sy-Pol-Ra (Added 11/9/21, Last Updated 11/13/21)
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Nurthic Goldbearer (Added 11/13/21)
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The Ronin (Added 11/13/21)
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TAKASHI DAIKO(Added 11/17/21)
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(More Coming Soon)

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Last edited by TheBlackN; November 17th, 2021 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Card Changes & Additions
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  #2  
Old November 10th, 2021, 10:50 AM
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Vydar_XLIII Vydar_XLIII is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Regarding your rebalancing, you've given Kelda a restriction, gave Mimring better Life, Attack, and Defense, and a points increase and gave Zetacron DOUBLE ATTACK and a points increase.

I think Kelda's restriction is ultimately unnecessary. It doesn't change the way the figure is played until the markers are used up and then she's worthless. She already isn't a "good" figure that doesn't see much play so I think she's fine as is.

Mimring, on the other hand, is already a really good figure. The Life and Defense buffs would really propel the Arrow Grut/Mimring/Raelin army over the top because the increased survivability would be much easier to recover from a mistake. The attack buff would likely not even see much use since the goal of that build is to have Mimring breathe fire from a distance the majority of the time. Again, I think he's fine as he is.

Zetacron's change is the most significant of the three and one that I find quite interesting. He goes from holding the niche of cheapest sniper to contending with Syvarris and Kaemon for their role. Syv is throwing 4 dice from height at 9 range, Kaemon only gets the double attack at 4 range but has double the survivability and Counterstrike. New Zetacron is equal to Syvarris in terms of survivability has 1 less range but is throwing the equivalent of 6 dice from height (and 4 without, because we can't discount that Zeta can't always get height because of his peanut base). This new Zeta has a role that isn't filled by other existing figures and could be a good addition to the game but I think 110 points isn't enough for 2 attacks of ~6 per turn. Maybe what could be interesting is if new Zeta had to choose between DEADLY SHOT or a new power FAST SHOT.

Quote:
FAST SHOT
When Zetacron attacks, he may attack one additional time. If he does this, neither attack gains the benefit of Deadly Shot.
This could balance him out to be around the 90-110 mark.

----------

Now onto your customs.

The Necron Praetorians. These are really cool sculpts. Very terminator-esque. Thematically, you talk about not hitting back hard. To me, that would indicate an attack of 2. 3 attack is generally the "normal" melee attack, (see Knights of Weston, Heavy Gruts, Axegrinders, Dreadguls). I like that they're soulborgs, but the name suggests undead. Are they both? Would that make more sense in Valkrill? If not, I would suggest a different name than "Necron." Mechanically, the MELEE SENTINELS power is redundant. Every power in canon that increases the range of other figures (that I can think of) requires a base range of 4 to be effective (see Glyph of Ivor, and Laglor). Lastly, 9 defense vs range is a lot, I'd suggest lowering the base defense by 1 or 2 and then maybe lower the points to compensate.

Syrin is also really cool. I like re-using Kee-Mo-Shi's TOXIC SKIN but since you're adding additional immunities to it, it isn't the same power anymore. You should call it something like CHILOPOD TOXIC SKIN or something similar. SWALLOW is a game changing power. It only targets heroes and just kills them 20% of the time. SWALLOW WHOLE is a power that Gräbermund, a figure currently in playtesting is using.

Quote:
SWALLOW WHOLE
After attacking a small or medium figure with a normal or special attack, if the defending figure did not roll excess shields and is still adjacent to Gräbermund, you may roll the 20-sided die. If the defending figure is a Squad figure and you roll a 13 or higher, destroy it. If the defending figure is a Hero figure, add 1 to your roll for every wound marker on the defending Hero's card. If you roll a 20, destroy the defending Hero.
Maybe this is more in line with the theme you want.

Sy-Pol-Ra is definitely too strong for the price. As a Hivelord, he gets Nagrub bonding. add his QUAD-ARM SPECIAL ATTACK and you get 7 attacks per turn, healing 1 wound and possibly rebirthing a squad figure (that cannot be a Nagrub since they are Marrden, not Marro, BTW). This design seems all over the place. Trying to do everything at the same time. I think you need to pick between the "4-armed Hivelord" and the "mobile Hive" ideas. Personally I'd go with the former. But if you go with the hive option, I suggest Overlord (see Tul-Bak-Ra) instead of Hivelord.

----------

Really cool stuff, can't wait to see where you take these.

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  #3  
Old November 10th, 2021, 10:47 PM
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vydar_XLIII View Post
Regarding your rebalancing, you've given Kelda a restriction, gave Mimring better Life, Attack, and Defense, and a points increase and gave Zetacron DOUBLE ATTACK and a points increase.

I think Kelda's restriction is ultimately unnecessary. It doesn't change the way the figure is played until the markers are used up and then she's worthless. She already isn't a "good" figure that doesn't see much play so I think she's fine as is.

Mimring, on the other hand, is already a really good figure. The Life and Defense buffs would really propel the Arrow Grut/Mimring/Raelin army over the top because the increased survivability would be much easier to recover from a mistake. The attack buff would likely not even see much use since the goal of that build is to have Mimring breathe fire from a distance the majority of the time. Again, I think he's fine as he is.

Zetacron's change is the most significant of the three and one that I find quite interesting. He goes from holding the niche of cheapest sniper to contending with Syvarris and Kaemon for their role. Syv is throwing 4 dice from height at 9 range, Kaemon only gets the double attack at 4 range but has double the survivability and Counterstrike. New Zetacron is equal to Syvarris in terms of survivability has 1 less range but is throwing the equivalent of 6 dice from height (and 4 without, because we can't discount that Zeta can't always get height because of his peanut base). This new Zeta has a role that isn't filled by other existing figures and could be a good addition to the game but I think 110 points isn't enough for 2 attacks of ~6 per turn. Maybe what could be interesting is if new Zeta had to choose between DEADLY SHOT or a new power FAST SHOT.

Quote:
FAST SHOT
When Zetacron attacks, he may attack one additional time. If he does this, neither attack gains the benefit of Deadly Shot.
This could balance him out to be around the 90-110 mark.

----------

Now onto your customs.

The Necron Praetorians. These are really cool sculpts. Very terminator-esque. Thematically, you talk about not hitting back hard. To me, that would indicate an attack of 2. 3 attack is generally the "normal" melee attack, (see Knights of Weston, Heavy Gruts, Axegrinders, Dreadguls). I like that they're soulborgs, but the name suggests undead. Are they both? Would that make more sense in Valkrill? If not, I would suggest a different name than "Necron." Mechanically, the MELEE SENTINELS power is redundant. Every power in canon that increases the range of other figures (that I can think of) requires a base range of 4 to be effective (see Glyph of Ivor, and Laglor). Lastly, 9 defense vs range is a lot, I'd suggest lowering the base defense by 1 or 2 and then maybe lower the points to compensate.

Syrin is also really cool. I like re-using Kee-Mo-Shi's TOXIC SKIN but since you're adding additional immunities to it, it isn't the same power anymore. You should call it something like CHILOPOD TOXIC SKIN or something similar. SWALLOW is a game changing power. It only targets heroes and just kills them 20% of the time. SWALLOW WHOLE is a power that Gräbermund, a figure currently in playtesting is using.

Quote:
SWALLOW WHOLE
After attacking a small or medium figure with a normal or special attack, if the defending figure did not roll excess shields and is still adjacent to Gräbermund, you may roll the 20-sided die. If the defending figure is a Squad figure and you roll a 13 or higher, destroy it. If the defending figure is a Hero figure, add 1 to your roll for every wound marker on the defending Hero's card. If you roll a 20, destroy the defending Hero.
Maybe this is more in line with the theme you want.

Sy-Pol-Ra is definitely too strong for the price. As a Hivelord, he gets Nagrub bonding. add his QUAD-ARM SPECIAL ATTACK and you get 7 attacks per turn, healing 1 wound and possibly rebirthing a squad figure (that cannot be a Nagrub since they are Marrden, not Marro, BTW). This design seems all over the place. Trying to do everything at the same time. I think you need to pick between the "4-armed Hivelord" and the "mobile Hive" ideas. Personally I'd go with the former. But if you go with the hive option, I suggest Overlord (see Tul-Bak-Ra) instead of Hivelord.

----------

Really cool stuff, can't wait to see where you take these.
This is great feedback! Thanks alot!

To clarify and address some of your notes:

Kelda - changes were due to being burned on several huge map games where the ability gets used ad nauseum. Maybe my friends and I are just traumatized - she is always banned.

Zetacron - I really like the idea of making him choose. Or maybe a special attack? Hmmm I'll have to think on that.

Necrons - Was already playing with tuning down their attack. Change will be made! The "Necron" title is an ode to their original title (Models are Warhammer 4k Necron Triarch Praetorians) but I wanted to embrace the Praetorian side more than the terminator so picked Einar and made colors to match. MELEE SENTINELS is on the card to prevent synergy from DW9K's RANGE ENHANCEMENT since they are Soulbourg Guards, but wanted to keep synergy with Warden's GUARD LEADERSHIP. Maybe I change DW9K card next

Sy-Pol-Ra - I think you're right. I try to make my customs fill a niche and he is definitely all over the place. I want to keep him a hivelord, just need to tone down the attacks per turn.

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  #4  
Old November 11th, 2021, 02:42 AM
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SchismaticSounds SchismaticSounds is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Woaho, hello neighbor! Can't believe I've finally come across a nearby fellow heroscaper.
Do you have a group in the area you play with?

I haven't seen Kelda in play all that much, but can see how a limitation might be nice for certain types of games. Otherwise, I think she should be dealt with by the time she has had any opportunity to heal up to 4 times.

I think the power buff on Mimring is cool and the different card look with it instantly evoked the feeling of a strong unit. The SotM renditions of Raelin/Sgt. Drake bring something mechanically different with the ability changes which make them interesting. I feel that if you wanted to follow that style of adaptation more, you might have good opportunity to get creative with replacing Fire Line or changing something else ability-wise.
I must agree with VydarXLIII though that because of the competitive combo of Zelrig with the Arrow Gruts, he shouldn't need to be improved. However, you could bypass this and further your creative changes by removing his beast class.

Don't have much to say on Zetacron other than my experience has been watching him die too quick almost every time, perhaps not played right. I'd like to simply see some survivability for him in either life, defense or an ability.

I do enjoy the idea of alt'd classic cards. Perhaps you've seen already the Competitive Unit Congress or Lefton4ya's Competitive Unit Alters. Pretty sure they are non VC inclusive, but interesting none the less. A few CUC that I have tested however did seem to be slightly overcompensated.
______________________________________________________________________ __
The Necron Praetorians are my favorite design here.
I agree that the possible 9 defense is extreme and that you could consider it a good change to lower it slightly and lower their points a touch. I think their 'low attack', being two attacks of 3 is a good place. 2 would make that more apparent and helps balance the strong defense with what you're going for, but being 2-figure, 3 is nice and seems appropriate for the sculpts.. or you could play with 2 attack and a lesser version of the death knights soul weapons, reducing defense by 1.. I'm not sure if this is better or worse than 3 attack. Would have to think of the different situations. They do seem to have more intended use as a screen than fighters. "Melee Sentinels" is unnecessary and the name in this case conflicts slightly with their guard class to me.

I enjoy the Remorhaz custom. How well does this figure fit on a base? I've come to personally veer away from restriction lists of more than 2-3 as used in Toxin Skin here, for simplification reasons. But there is really nothing against it as there is also nothing against reusing the 'Toxic Skin' ability name for a different ability unless it were to exist in SoV. But this is for your own universe of customs, and I respect that.
Swallow is kind of niche, and niche can be good. I'd test the unit for yourself and see how you like it and if there's any different direction you might want to take it.

Sy-Pol-Ra- Certainly one of the greatest miniatures for a Heroscape Marro I've ever seen. Gives Tul-Bak-Ra's sculpt a run for his money as the Dividers pairing hero. I like the malfunction cloning dividing theme you mentioned. It feels like the design is trying to do too many different things. Overlord could definitely be used here. Before Cxurg'gyath, Tul-Bak-Ra was the only https://heroscape.fandom.com/wiki/Overlord. So now the Overlord class is left ambiguous in its use.
Your use of limiting the marro rebirth shows good balance intent.
Don't be afraid to rethink the custom all together. Perhaps you'll find something different you like better, or you can always return to some of what you had before.

Thanks for sharing your designs

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  #5  
Old November 11th, 2021, 09:07 AM
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Vydar_XLIII Vydar_XLIII is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackN View Post
This is great feedback! Thanks alot!

To clarify and address some of your notes:

Kelda - changes were due to being burned on several huge map games where the ability gets used ad nauseum. Maybe my friends and I are just traumatized - she is always banned.

Zetacron - I really like the idea of making him choose. Or maybe a special attack? Hmmm I'll have to think on that.

Necrons - Was already playing with tuning down their attack. Change will be made! The "Necron" title is an ode to their original title (Models are Warhammer 4k Necron Triarch Praetorians) but I wanted to embrace the Praetorian side more than the terminator so picked Einar and made colors to match. MELEE SENTINELS is on the card to prevent synergy from DW9K's RANGE ENHANCEMENT since they are Soulbourg Guards, but wanted to keep synergy with Warden's GUARD LEADERSHIP. Maybe I change DW9K card next

Sy-Pol-Ra - I think you're right. I try to make my customs fill a niche and he is definitely all over the place. I want to keep him a hivelord, just need to tone down the attacks per turn.
Kelda - Maybe the restriction is needed on large maps. I can see Cyprien or Nilfheim retreating, getting healed and then heading back out to fight. On typical competitive maps, she really isn't a problem.

Necrons - Yep, I'm wrong about MELEE SENTINELS. I overlooked DW9K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchismaticSounds View Post
Sy-Pol-Ra- Certainly one of the greatest miniatures for a Heroscape Marro I've ever seen. Gives Tul-Bak-Ra's sculpt a run for his money as the Dividers pairing hero. I like the malfunction cloning dividing theme you mentioned. It feels like the design is trying to do too many different things. Overlord could definitely be used here. Before Cxurg'gyath, Tul-Bak-Ra was the only https://heroscape.fandom.com/wiki/Overlord. So now the Overlord class is left ambiguous in its use.
I had no idea that Cxurg'gyath was an Overlord. Ya learn something new every day.

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  #6  
Old November 13th, 2021, 02:46 AM
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Large map/large point heroscape is a totally different game. That's what I usually play and agreed, Kelda is a boss on those maps. But usually those are big multi-player games anyway and it's easy to gang up on the one OP figure. Regardless, it's more of a house-rule adjustment than a CUC adjustment.

Also, you guys are in Bozeman? My best friend is in Butte, who knows maybe I'll be playing some scape sometime with y'all
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Old November 13th, 2021, 03:19 PM
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Quote:
Woaho, hello neighbor! Can't believe I've finally come across a nearby fellow heroscaper.
Do you have a group in the area you play with?
Quote:
Also, you guys are in Bozeman? My best friend is in Butte, who knows maybe I'll be playing some scape sometime with y'all
Nice! Sadly most of my stuff isn't in Bozeman. Hope to get that remedied in the near-ish future. So I am not playing as much as I would like. Still if either of you are interested in a game sometime send me dm.

Quote:
Perhaps you've seen already the Competitive Unit Congress or Lefton4ya's Competitive Unit Alters. Pretty sure they are non VC inclusive, but interesting none the less. A few CUC that I have tested however did seem to be slightly overcompensated.
These are awesome! I would agree CUC is a bit heavy handed and CAU has some changes I disagree with as well. This has inspired me to actually do a full rebalance myself. Already have a spreadsheet full of units and ideas.

Quote:
I enjoy the Remorhaz custom. How well does this figure fit on a base?
I am struggling with that a bit. He definitely is a bit wide. Damn peanuts!

Quote:
Large map/large point heroscape is a totally different game. That's what I usually play and agreed, Kelda is a boss on those maps. But usually those are big multi-player games anyway and it's easy to gang up on the one OP figure. Regardless, it's more of a house-rule adjustment than a CUC adjustment.
I guess my question is that would limiting her ability really hurt her in a small competitive game? I don't think it would but would cap her ability from getting out of control.

"So wait... the robot with the big f-ing missile has the machine gun ability and the one with a belt of bullets has the explosion?!"
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Old November 13th, 2021, 03:56 PM
Knox Knox is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackN View Post

Quote:
Large map/large point heroscape is a totally different game. That's what I usually play and agreed, Kelda is a boss on those maps. But usually those are big multi-player games anyway and it's easy to gang up on the one OP figure. Regardless, it's more of a house-rule adjustment than a CUC adjustment.
I guess my question is that would limiting her ability really hurt her in a small competitive game? I don't think it would but would cap her ability from getting out of control.
I don't think it would. In a small game I can't imagine Kelda healing more than 4 times anyways. But Kelda probably needs a CUC adjustment in the opposite direction for smaller scale games. Probably just changing her point value.

That's all incredibly complicated, but for house rules it wouldn't be crazy to have 2 different versions costing 2 different amounts.

Can you share your spreadsheet with me? As someone who plays a lot of large battles I would be interested in collaborating on some of the changes.
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Old November 13th, 2021, 05:30 PM
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TheBlackN TheBlackN is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Quote:
Can you share your spreadsheet with me? As someone who plays a lot of large battles I would be interested in collaborating on some of the changes.
DM sent.

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Old November 17th, 2021, 04:16 PM
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Update Time! I updated the Necrons to a place I am happy with following the feedback. Will playtest to check. Sy-Pol-Ra got a full rework and am curious if anyone has advice on pricing him. He is so unique, sometimes I think he could be priced as low as 150 or as high as 210. Picked a middle road for now.

Added a dwarven Aquilla Flag Bearer, some Ronin, and a Samurai hero. Am thinking of using the Bushido figures for them. Anyone know how well they would match HS?

Sy-Pol-Ra
Spoiler Alert!


Nurthic Goldbearer
Spoiler Alert!


The Ronin
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Takashi Daiko
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Old November 17th, 2021, 05:40 PM
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Vydar_XLIII Vydar_XLIII is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Sy-Pol-Ra

First thought: I miss the multi-attack. He looks like he has 4 arms and for something this expensive, he isn't going to be good without the ability to destroy multiple figures per turn.

Upon close inspection: There is an interaction between MARRO ABSORPTION and LIFE DRAIN that is potentially problematic. MARRO ABSORPTION destroys friendly adjacent marro to heal a life. LIFE DRAIN says each time SPR destroys a figure it heals a life. As written, when MARRO ABSORPTION destroys a figure, SPR heals 2 wounds. If that's the intended interaction, it could be more elegantly written as 1 power, I think.

Something about COLLECTIVE FORM UNRAVEL sounds off. I think UNRAVELING [BLANK] is better. The blank could be "mind, form, hivemind, collective mind, collective form" or whatever you want.

Points wise, as written (even with the double heal), he isn't as good as Cyprien and he's kind of a reverse-Krug. And then you have to split OMs between him and the squad that heals him, the squads have to survive, and even if they survive you're killing 50 points of your own army to heal him. Personally, I think 150 is the high end of his cost. I might missing something, but I don't see anything to justify the 210 at your high end.


Nurthic Goldbearer

Love this guy, I 100% agree that the aura should be a D20 buff. Makes it so that he is either a bonding hero for dwarves or a cheerleader for anything else Aquilla since the dwarves don't have a D20 power. Well balanced.

Thematically, I think LUCK AURA could be a better name than FOCUS AURA. It invokes the Glyph of Lodin (Lucky 20-Sider). But that's just my subjective preference.

The first part of the AURA power is confusing to me. "When you roll the 20-sided die for the first time for any unit you control who..." This is going to be hard to keep track of. Did I use the aura on Mohican #3 already? Wait, which one is #3? Etc. You don't keep track of things like that. Also, even though it seems obvious, you have to specify which roll you are adding X to. Perhaps try:

Quote:
AQUILLA'S FOCUS AURA
Once per turn, when a unit you control that follows Aquilla rolls the 20-sided die and is within 8 clear-sight spaces of Nurthic Goldbearer, you may roll 10 Aquilla Valkyrie dice and add X to the 20-sided die roll. X equals the number of Aquilla symbols rolled.
This way you can choose when to apply the bonus. if you roll a 20 on your first roll with the unit, the Aura is wasted.


I haven't looked at the Ronin or Takashi yet, stay tuned!

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  #12  
Old November 17th, 2021, 07:32 PM
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SchismaticSounds SchismaticSounds is offline
 
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Re: TheBlackN's Custom Figures

Nurthic

Surprised I have not seen this Flagbearer design before. I really like the idea of the D20 boost for Aquilla. Myrddin is a factor to keep in mind with his added +1, which is enough reason for me to not want it to be 12 Valkyrie dice.

Bangerang's name for the aura I didn't mind.
Dwarven resolve doesn't mesh to me either, since both iron resolve and warforged resolve are self characteristic. If you want to keep the Dwarf defense aura then just name it something like "Dwarven Defensive Aura 1". The axegrinders are in a delicate place when it comes to adding more bonding options. The defense aura debatably would even still be too much for them, but I have nothing to support that theory.
Speaking of Aquilla Dice.. (prints are in process )

Sy-Pol-Ra

I agree with Vydar that at this point value some form of multi-attack is nice to have, which begs to question why not with his multiple arms. That said, I do think this is a stronger design than previous, though having 2 self healing abilities upsets the balance of the custom quite a bit, and then there are the issues Vydar mentioned.

Now I feel that if you really wanted the marro sacrifice heal, then I'd almost go back to his being a Hivelord now that the rebirth is gone.
Pointwise currently it's really hard for me to say because of the heals. Without a multi-attack option, he must have a team to back him up, which is where marro armies actually might support this rendition, but the ability to off them for his own gain is interesting.


Neat info on some of the stuff Hasbro had in mind.

The Ronin

The theme of them being nearly identical with very subtle differences is cool. Bloodfury special attack is my favorite. I didn't like the lengthy Ronin bonding text that also gives them the samurai class at first, but I don't judge it for it's intentive purpose. I'm just wondering if it's worth them being Samurai than only Ronin. But perhaps there's some background I'm not aware of.

Takashi
I like what you're shooting for here.
Masterful Counter strike is way too confusing to read currently and ventures too far off from what is already familiar.


A few wording adjustments:

Collective Unravel Form
Humerously, I have an ability for a 4 robot armed rat that I'm working on which functions in the exact same way as "Collective Unravel Form". So I used this wording.
Spoiler Alert!

Samurai Courage
Used Emperor Andask for some reference here.
Spoiler Alert!

Adapt what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own.
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