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#1
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The Book of Shadow Binder
The Book of Shadow Binder Looming Shadows ![]() Basic Side Army Card
Spoiler Alert!
PDF download for printing. The figure used for this unit is Tentacle figure from Reaper Miniatures. Biography : TBA... Quote:
_____________________________________________________________________ - Rulings and Clarifications -_____________________________________________________________________ - Combinations and Synergies - Synergy Benefits Offered: XUNDAR: Shadow Cast Special Attack As a Shadow figure, the Shadow Binder may assist Xundar by providing potentially 1 additional attack die for his Shadow Cast Special Attack. Synergy Benefits Received: XUNDAR: Master of Shadows As a Shadow figure, the Shadow Binder may benefit from Xundar's Master of Shadows ability to take a turn. WARDEN 816 : Guard Leadership As a guard, Shadow Binders may benefit from Warden 816's GUARD LEADERSHIP movement bonus. CRYPT GUARDIAN : Royal Escort As a guard, Shadow Binders may benefit from the Crypt Guardian Royal Escort ability. Synergy Imposed / Other: _____________________________________________________________________ -Heroscapers Community Contributions-Power Ranking and Master Index Unit Strategy Review Sir Heroscape's Content
Customs, Maps, Battle Reports YouTube Channel, Trade List, 'Scaper of the Month, Burnout Format Tourney Record: 268 - 116 Online Record: 19 - 22 Last edited by Sir Heroscape; November 9th, 2021 at 01:58 PM. |
#2
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Although the text transcript agrees with the army card, the typical boldface is missing and both the transcript and card have one small non-compliance with an official phrasing they were modeled on (Earth Elemental's UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT):
Quote:
...and is no higher than 1 level above that Earth Elemental’s height or 3 levels below that Earth Elemental’s base.Without the word "lower" to change the direction from up to down, the phrase "higher than" automatically copies itself across the conjunction (as in all such English structures). This means the special ability is actually saying this: ...and is no higher than 1 level above that Earth Elemental’s height or higher than 3 levels below that Earth Elemental’s base.I'm sure many will not like this (and some will deny it), but that's how our language works. Thus the attempt at defining a "high-low span" is actually broken because it says the space is no higher than two different values — making one of the values redundant. It's just plain nonsensical, and terrible sentence construction; any credible English teacher would fail it. For the Earth Elemental and its inspirees (Ashi-Dhulu and Shadow Binder) to make sense, they need to use a higher-or-lower construction as the earlier examples did. There are multiple ways that one could correctly recast them, of course, but perhaps the most obvious one (and reasonably minimal) would be to follow the "not higher than __ or lower than __" approach of the successful units listed above. UNDERGROUND MOVEMENTNow I realize that some may feel resistant to fixing this because "WotC did it that way so it must be gospel." But WotC did it wrong — hands down, no question, just plain bad writing — and this awful wording exists on only one official unit (that I could find). So the VC teams really should not have to feel obligated to repeat WotC's mistake for every new design that needs a structure like this. I therefore respectfully request and encourage a review of this grammar oversight, and the possible ways to improve Ashi-Dhulu and Shadow Binder so they say what they mean. Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
#3
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Well this makes me think about the "Double Attack" wording, that could be interpreted way off it there was not this "Double" mention in the special power name...
![]() IMO this kind of things just needs to be clarified in FAQ and by usage. Context and rules logic should do the trick that no one falls into the bad (non) sense of this grammar choice. So.... yeah for uniformity I am probably on the "resistance" team out there. ![]() |
#4
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Just to be clear, I'm not claiming that the text is going to trick players into making a mistake. I'm more pointing out that it's an embarrassing example of poor writing that shouldn't keep getting repeated. There are plenty of other cases of bad wordings where once it was discovered/pointed out, Hasbro or WotC or the VC teams then tried to use a corrected wording from that point forward. This seems no different to me, and it's literally grammatical nonsense as written. Nobody keeps repeating the mistakes on the cards for Taelord, Blastatrons, etc., so I don't see any reason to keep repeating the mistake on the Earth Elemental.
What is gained by perpetuating an error? Especially one that's easier to fix when there have been only two VCs that have copied it so far. Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
#5
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Wow, that's a great catch. I definitely hope that a fix is considered too. Using poor grammar just for the sake of using it definitely communicates a lack of proffesionalism and quality.
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#6
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Quote:
We know how to edit. How about ask first, before throwing around nasty accusations. ![]() I'm sure someone will be along presently to answer JAB's question, which is a perfectly reasonable one. |
#7
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Let's be clear, this is no "catch". Everyone involved was well aware of the precedent and its odd wording when we made the conscious choice to mimic it in this power's wording.
This is an discussion that has been had out many, many times with regard to precedents. As @DanieLoche points out, Double attack is worded horribly from a technical perspective. It's ambiguous (only the name of the power really provides clarity, which is dangerous) and it also fails to provide a clear trigger and timing window. And that's not even the worst case, IMO. The Swog Rider card offers basically no guidance on how to square the circle of a common figure with a boosting power. Charging Assault of the Kozuke Samurai is flat-out misleading in a plain reading, as it doesn't seem to imply that you are required to end engaged, and yet you are. There are many more. And yet, when there is a single clear precedent for what you are doing, it usually behooves us to follow it. We do so for a simple reason - because, if an experienced player notices the variation, it's natural for them to wonder why the precedented wording was not followed. If you mimic past wording, it's implicitly clear that you mean to follow past behavior. To be honest, I've not always found myself on the side of the argument I laid out above. I have, in the past, made the opposite argument - that a variation will be easier for new players, and even experienced players who notice the difference will find it almost impossible to draw out the wrong conclusion from that variance. That said, it's a fair argument, and I don't consider it a mistake to follow the precedent, even when I disagree with it. Often, the choice about whether to follow precedent exactly will come down to other issues of readability or space on the card or the like. We're not perfectly consistent, nor are we immune to mistakes. However, I don't see us revisiting this one just to change away from the Earth Elemental wording. |
#8
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Quote:
![]() I have to agree with Dok. Heroscape has always had clunky and inconsistent wording, and changing the wording on say Double Attack would only serve to make people question if they were playing it wrong before. New powers can be professionally done, but I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie when it comes to old ones, which I always enjoy seeing pop up from time to time on Customs and C3V/SoV units. ~TAF, at no point has ever found this particular power wording confusing ![]() in THE ENEMY'S LAST RETREAT |
#9
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Like dok, I’ve wrestled with this principle internally before. It pains me to concede that reusing imperfect power language is preferable, but when that imperfect language has a body of authority explaining it already, then I grin and bear it. Changing it just invites new questions.
Heaven knows it’s a fair question, and I appreciate @Just_a_Bill bringing this lens to our work and to the books themselves. |
#10
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
This discussion lead me to an interogation, did you think to propose an updated version of the original cards with a better wording?
Like that experienced player would print fixed card ![]() I am thinking to errata as Taelord flying too, do you known if a pdf version with the fixed power have been done? |
#11
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
What we’re saying,
@Zeldarck
, is that we considered this issue, and made a choice to follow precedent rather than to try to improve the work of the original designers. I appreciate JAB’s question, but it is not something we failed to consider. We followed precedent, and in general we are disinclined to change it, when we are reaching for the same effect.
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#12
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Re: The Book of Shadow Binder
Quote:
The overall effect may be templated from the Drow, but (as touched on earlier) the specific phrasing that my whole point focuses on is more clearly templated from the Elemental. (An objective examination of the three abilities will probably make this clear.) In fact, if they had actually used CHAIN GRAB's "above or below" approach, then we would never have even had this conversation in the first place. Quote:
But it did liven up my day to be both misrepresented and ad hominem'd in the same post; it's been a while since I've had that pleasure. ![]() Good traders: tdemirji, AbsintheAddict, Blubberguy22, Toa Matoro, SuperSamyon, Bl1ndsn1per, Ericth74,
Clipper423, Oh Freek, Nikkomon, DarthBaggins, quizzcode, Astroking112 & more on my trade list |
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