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View Poll Results: What is the order of units from Best to Worst
Axegrinders > Heavy Gruts > Knights 1 3.23%
Axegrinders > Knights > Heavy Gruts 1 3.23%
Heavy Gruts > Axegrinders > Knights 3 9.68%
Heavy Gruts > Knights > Axegrinders 6 19.35%
Knights > Axegrinders > Heavy Gruts 3 9.68%
Knights > Heavy Gruts > Axegrinders 17 54.84%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old August 18th, 2020, 02:45 PM
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Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

I ask that you don't use this format without permission to preserve the quality of the other Unit Debates and avoid confusion.

NOTE: This is the first 3-Way debate to discuss the three best bonding Melee. See previous debates:
#16 -- Heavy Gruts Vs. Axegrinders and #37 -- Knights Vs. Dwarves
Also listen to the latest Casters of Valhalla episode CoV Entry 10: Bonding Melee.


This Unit Debate was selected by @lefton4ya .

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

NOTE: Debates can now acknowledge the existence and effect of VC Customs (C3V & SoV) on the units

Last edited by lefton4ya; August 18th, 2020 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Pedantry
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  #2  
Old August 18th, 2020, 10:34 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

I voted Heavies - Dwarfs - Knights, in that order.

Orcs have a ton of bonding options, period. Nerak and Grimnak can grant defense, Ornak makes them insanely deadly when they group mob someone.

Knights can lock you down and have good defense, but are slow, and I've seen groups of them get mowed down more often than not albeit in my limited play circles.

Dwarfs can bond well too, but have the option of a 6 speed value. Only reason I took Orcs over them is because they have more bonding options. (Although personally I'll nearly always take striking first over defense, as there are more skulls than shields on the dice.)

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Old August 19th, 2020, 12:56 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

While I believe the dwarves are a good unit, I would put them third. In my experience the knights get to the front more reliably than the dwarves and just take a long time to kill for their points. I would put the knights first, the heavies a close second, and the dwarves third.

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Old August 19th, 2020, 02:10 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

Oof. Tough question. Orcs are #1 for me, but that’s mostly because I’ve played em the most.

Knights are good, but I know dwarves get work done. Since I only have 1 squad of dwarves, though, I haven’t had the ability to compete with them. Also, didn’t have Gilbert for forever, so its hard to say how much he impacts the knights without theoryscape.

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Old August 19th, 2020, 02:23 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

I think some people need to listen to the latest episode of Casters.

I'm surprised by the diversity of answers here. While I think there's a case to be made for Heavies over Knights, I really don't see Dwarves over either of those two. Perhaps they get a leg up in a VC-inclusive environment with Quahon and Incendiborgs all over the place (damn Cathar), but who knows.
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Old August 19th, 2020, 03:15 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

Yeah, I think this is an easy one. In the hands of a skilled player, "lesser" units can win out vs a stronger unit matchup...but generally speaking the order is:

Knights, Heavies then Dwarves. Period.
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Old August 19th, 2020, 06:34 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

I used to lose the most to the Knights, but win the most as the Heavy Gruts, so it's hard to say between those two. Dwarves always felt a little worse than the two of them.


EDIT: I ended up going Heavies > Knights > Dwarves.


Although kind of like the 4th Mass vs. 10th, the Knights seem better if you literally have no idea what you're facing, but the fact that Heavies seem to perform a little better against Deathreavers and Trons had me give them the edge.

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Last edited by Jexik; August 19th, 2020 at 11:45 PM. Reason: posted about my vote
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Old August 19th, 2020, 10:49 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #75 Axegrinders vs Heavy Gruts vs Knights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
Yeah, I think this is an easy one. In the hands of a skilled player, "lesser" units can win out vs a stronger unit matchup...but generally speaking the order is:

Knights, Heavies then Dwarves. Period.
Gotta disagree, my good Sir Heroscape.

It really comes down to semantics, I think. (And map choice. Each map is different after all.)

If we're talking 500 competitive, Gilbert is what makes the Knights super deadly because of random mobility. (Random is still the key, you may roll 4-5 jandar symbols, you may roll 1.) But once Gilbert goes down, the knights mobility drops like a rock, and the heavies can reposition at will, making the knights primary power useless.

Denrick is meh, Hawthorne can be nasty but he can also turn on you... Alastair is good, but 3 defense isn't great still... all in all, Orcs have better bang for your buck as far as support goes, with Gilbert really being the only amazing support for knights IMO.

Also let's keep in mind that if you're running Nerak/Grimnak andor Tornak those heavies will be rockin at LEAST 4-5 defense in the hands of a competent player, without Raelin's help.

I personally love the dwarfs the most, even though I don't think they win the prize here sadly. I prefer speed and offense to defense usually, and the dwarfs can easily outpace either heavies or knights, and Mogrimm is a solid leader/fighter. (Plus the initiative bonus is good too!)

My 2 cents. Wish I could play this awesome game more....now excuse me while I go cry in a corner after realizing its been wayyyyy too long since my last game, lol...

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