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View Poll Results: Which unit is better?
Nilfheim 15 78.95%
Quahon 4 21.05%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old June 4th, 2019, 11:56 AM
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Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

I ask that you don't use this format without permission to preserve the quality of the Unit Debates and avoid confusion.

Welcome to the second debate of Official vs VC Customs (C3V & SoV) - 1st was Unit Debate #60 -- Blastatrons vs. Resistance Fighters.


This Unit Debate was selected by @lefton4ya .

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

NOTE: Debates can now acknowledge the existence and affect of VC Customs (C3V & SoV) on the units
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Old June 4th, 2019, 12:25 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Obviously Quahon was designed to be very similar to Nilfheim. There's only a few differences:

7L/3D vs. 6L/4D -> slight advantage Nilfheim
5 move vs. 6 move -> slight advantage Nilfheim
Special Attack -> slight advantage Quahon (because she rolls for all three figures at once, it's easier to have a devastating turn of 3 kills).
Bonding squads -> advantage Quahon
Points -> miniscule advantage Nilfheim
Maneuverability -> miniscule advantage Quahon (easier to fit on height near obstacles)

So really, it's just about a toss-up. I chose Quahon because I think the easier potential for a 3-kill turn is more beneficial than Nilfheim's lower chance of a 0-kill turn.

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  #3  
Old June 4th, 2019, 05:02 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Well the biggest difference between the two is that Quahon rolls attack dice once and Nilfheim rolls three times. Nilfheim becomes substantially better against low defense figures than Quahon is because of this, and because of his base + 1 range. Quahon does have the opportunity for a three figure clear out turn.

And 4 defense is a lot better than 3, even with plus one life. I'm not sure if the math bears this out but in my head I always see survivability as the product of defense and life, so Nilfheim has 24 lifedefense and Quahon only has 21 lifedefense. But if this calculation is wrong in any direction it should probably value defense more so I think that Nilfheim's survivability is notably better.

The other big difference is that Quahon has Spider bonding, which is mostly good because you can play other bonding heroes and the game doesn't end when you lose your dragon. This comparison makes it harder to judge though. Spiders aren't that good with Raelin, so Quahon and Spiders may be just too bad for a double blind competitive meta but I'm in no position to make that call.

Overall I like both, but their differences are hard to compare and semi-obvious.
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Old June 4th, 2019, 05:39 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

@vegietarian18 Spiders might suck with Raelin, but they’re fantastic with the Spider Queen (Estivara) backing them up. +1 attack (with a range of 6) is no joke, and helps the spiders become comparable to Greenscales (while still having another ranged special attack in play, although that is less important here).

This is a hard contest right here. Both units are beloved by anyone who’s ever played them, and have similar toolboxes.

The biggest differences are of course:

Special Attacks
Life + Defense
Bonding Options

Ice Shards is quite consistent, which is great! It also has a fairly large reach.
Lightning Breath throws away consistency for big turn access. Rolling 3 skulls can cripple an opponent to the point where they lose board control (especially because of bonding), and also allows Quahon to hit units who are hiding behind walls.

Nilfy has 6 life and the “magical” 4 defense, a fairly consistent combo.
Quahon has 7 life and 3 defense. Quahon can outlast Wannok holders/d20 wounders a hair longer, but otherwise has a slight disadvantage.

Bonding options are easily the biggest divide though, because Quahon gets access to Spiders, playing her does give you access to additional tools with screwing your OM’s. Unlike the fairly “vanilla” Greenscales, Spiders can sometimes kill OM’s. They might also make up their stat deficit (+1D, potential +1A/+1D) with their lower investment cost. 4 squads of spiders is still cheaper than 3 squads of Greenscales.

The last minor note is Quahon’s +1 Attack, which gives her a better chance at killing tough solo targets.

I’ll hold my vote for now, but with a leniency towards Quahon. Nilfy can handle a lot of things, but what he can’t handle, he can’t handle. Quahon has an easier time trying to handle what she can’t handle though.
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  #5  
Old June 4th, 2019, 05:52 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

I actually view the fact that Quahon only rolls dice once for her Special Attack as a downside. While it means that she only needs to roll 3+ skulls once to blast three figures, she's just as likely to only roll 1 skull, or the dreaded 0. Nilfheim is far more consistent in comparison, especially when taking into account his increased durability and slightly farther range/move, which helps him play safer for longer.

They're both great figures, but I think that it's tough to beat Nilfheim.
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Old June 4th, 2019, 06:02 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Admittedly I could stand to try out Quahon a few more times, but my perspective here is that Nilfy's 6 move and base 5 range on his special are just so, so important. Figures this expensive have to be played defensively, and every extra ounce of positioning freedom is huge in helping accomplish that. It's probably easier for Quahon to set up 3-kill turns, but she has to put herself at just a bit more of a risk to do so. Even if I'm only getting 1 or 2 targets for Ice Shards, I much prefer his mobility (and the extra defense die certainly helps, 5 defense if you keep height is nothing to sneeze at).
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Old June 4th, 2019, 07:13 PM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Admittedly I could stand to try out Quahon a few more times, but my perspective here is that Nilfy's 6 move and base 5 range on his special are just so, so important. Figures this expensive have to be played defensively, and every extra ounce of positioning freedom is huge in helping accomplish that. It's probably easier for Quahon to set up 3-kill turns, but she has to put herself at just a bit more of a risk to do so. Even if I'm only getting 1 or 2 targets for Ice Shards, I much prefer his mobility (and the extra defense die certainly helps, 5 defense if you keep height is nothing to sneeze at).
Basically this. Quahon’s really good, but Nilf definitely has the advantage (6 move, 5 range, and 4 defense are all huge).
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Old June 5th, 2019, 02:50 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

I've seen both played many a time at tournaments. I've played against them many a time. I've also played with and against them at home games. They both fill their opponents with dread, and are both super lethal in the right players hands. I lean towards Nilfhelm just slightly. The up to 3 ranged attacks along with the substantial 3 attacks from greenscales, all hitting at 3 or above attack dice is where Nilf beats quahon. Not to mention the extra defense die making it that much harder to knock off one of his lifes. Both are great, this is a fun Versus discussion/debate.
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Old June 5th, 2019, 09:06 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

I view it as Nilfheim is slightly better, but they're very close in power. I'd take Nilfheim's 6life/6move/4defense stats over Quahon's 7life/5move/3defense. The Specials are debatable....Nilfheim's has an initial shot one space farther than Quahon's but has to stay within a 5 range radius while Quahon can extend to a bridge of 9 if the figures are aligned. Nilfheim gets 3 rolls and Quahon gets 1, but Quahon isn't bogged down by engagement nullifications. It seems to me like the SAs have their differences but I think they kind of even out. I think Nilf's is more consistent in that I see getting bogged down and missing that 1st shot as happening less than Quahon whiffing or only rolling 1 skull on her 1st and only shot. Quahon probably has more devastating turn peaks but I've played the game plenty to know Nilfheim has devastating turns just about every game. I'm not positive though, I can see an argument for either SA. Quahon's LoS is a bit more flexible I think. Also worth noting Nilf's 6 move makes it easier to do a suicide-disengage-swing turn to fly over and throw 6 or 7 dice at a key hero like Q9 which is an important option. 5 move will be harder to fulfill that (though Quahon's SA can potentially include that hero while still being bogged down). Nilf is 5pt. cheaper.

Quahon has Spiders but I don't really see that as a boost for Quahon, but rather a boost for the Spiders. It is an option though. It has some pros when comparing to the Greenscales.

They're both vying for best Dragon in my opinion but I think Nilf has the slight edge.

Last edited by Cleon; June 6th, 2019 at 06:35 AM.
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Old June 5th, 2019, 09:54 AM
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Re: Unit Debate #71 Nilfheim vs Quahon

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
And 4 defense is a lot better than 3, even with plus one life. I'm not sure if the math bears this out but in my head I always see survivability as the product of defense and life, so Nilfheim has 24 lifedefense and Quahon only has 21 lifedefense.
I think that's pretty much the right way to look at it. It's probably not perfect in pinpointing exact survivability because there are different times/scenarios where defense is valued higher than life and vice versa, but I think that's basically the right analysis of it.

If Quahon had 8 life, it would feel pretty much equal, and the equation would both dish out 24. Nilfheim and Braxas feel similar in survivability (also both 24), though it always feels like Braxas is beefier to me; maybe because Braxas is always off terrorizing squads and usually doesn't deal with heroes? The Healer glyph probably has something to do with it as well.

It's a good way to articulate how insane and shocking Ne-Gok-Sa's survivability is. His lifedefense is 30, and he's only a 90pt. figure. Charos is the king of survivability at 45 but he's also 210pt. Q9 is 28, Jotun is 28, TKN is 30+, but each of those are expensive figures. NGS you can have for only 90.

Also, Nilf and Braxas feel more like 30 and 32 respectively, since they usually have height. That's probably why Braxas feels beefier. (Quahon on height would be only 28 )

Last edited by Cleon; June 6th, 2019 at 06:41 AM.
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