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Old September 5th, 2014, 11:46 PM
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Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

Howdy all, IAmBatman requested I get a post out for y'all to help explain the 'Paper-Rock-Scissors' terminology that y'all might have noticed being tossed about lately, so here's some explanations and examples complied from earlier posts:



What does Rock-Paper-Scissors mean in the context of C3G? Dok invented the terminology, so I'll let him explain:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok
I've recently come to a realization of sorts that there's a bit of a grand Rock-Paper-Scissors arrangement in C3G armies.
  • "Paper" = armies that seek to maximize activations and dice. Most superteams fall here (Green Lanterns, Wrecking Crew, Warriors Three, etc). So do most Enchantress builds and generic synergy builds like Iron Patriot and Ms. Marvel.

  • "Scissors" = armies that seek to disrupt and control their opponent's actions. Joker, Ozymandias, Mad Thinker, Puppet Master, Bizarro, Mastermind, Purple Man, Graviton, Magneto+Blob, Mr. Mxy, Angstrom, etc.

  • "Rock" = armies that try to bypass the opponent's powers and just do their thing. Almost all event hero-based armies fit here (Dark Phoenix, Anti-Monitor, Surtur, Satanus). So do a few other builds like massed White Martians.

Of course, most armies have some elements of all of these. But one thing I would consider when building armies for testing is what kind of build maximizes the value of that unit. You should also be cognizant when you're testing it whether you're putting the army in a favorable matchup or not. Rock>Scissors>Paper>Rock, generally. (Of course when you just throw an army together on theme, it often doesn't fit neatly into one of these categories.)
There's also Dysole's super simple explanation:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
As to the terminology, brief rundown (although I vary on whether I think the usage will help my meaning)

Rock-y = something that allows the unit to avoid disruption from the enemy (event hero, huge, intangibility) and just be a big rock wailing on things

Paper-y = something that allows you to get a ton of activations or attacks; looks good on paper

Scissor-y = something that disrupts your opponent (stuck, movement powers, OM stealing/removal). Cuts up their plans.

Here are some examples of Rock-Paper-Scissor armies from one of the earlier tournaments, originally organized by dok, with some comments on why a few of them fall into the category they do by Dysole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok and Dysole
Rock armies:
  • Fire Demons, Surtur
    Surtur/Fire Demons pounds on whatever is left until it is dead. Rinse and repeat until all things are dead. Due to Surtur's Event Hero and huge status and the Twilight Sword he should be able to kill most things in his path. The Fire Demons hit hard and have the respawn to allow them to keep on back and wailing away on their opponents.
  • Satanus, Spawn, Predator x2

Paper armies:
  • Apocalypse, Sabretooth, X-23
  • Sabertooth, Wolverine, Marrow, Jubilee, Deadpool, Skrull infiltrator
    Pick a healer (probably in order of Marrow, Sabertooth, Deadpool, Wolverine). Attack with them (and Jubilee) until they're dead (which can take a while since they keep healing) If your opponent decides to start attacking a different one move your OMs to that one so that way you keep your healers at max power but the goal is to essentially outlast the other guy.
  • Spawn, Buffy Summers, Judge Dredd, Invincible
  • Nick Fury, Iron Man Stealth Suit, Dum Dum Dugan, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents x5, Skrull Infiltrator x2
  • Juggernaut, Jean Grey, Mystique (II), Magneto (II), Destiny
  • Diamondback, Sage, Wrecker, Bulldozer, Piledriver, Thunderball

Paper/Scissors blend:
  • Spider-Man (C3G), Venom (C3G), Carnage, Spider-Woman, Spider-Girl
  • Doc Oc, Electro, Kraven, Mysterio, Mysterio Holographs, Sandman, Rhino
  • Cosmic Boy, Brainiac 5, Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad, Phantom Girl, Colossal Boy
    Should get to use two Legionnaires a turn. Lightning Lad and Colossal Boy can bring the pain. However, with proper set up you can take a lot of the bite out of your opponent with Saturn Girl's Telepathic Walls, Phantom Girl moving people around and auto wounding them and Cosmic Boy tossing people all over the place.
  • Magneto (310), Mystique (200), Sage, Forge, Blob, Destiny, Jubilee

Scissors armies (a.k.a. the "dok and Dysole" division):
  • Baron Zemo (Heinrich Zemo), Meteorite, Red Skull (C3G), Blob, Jean Grey, Whirlwind, Skrull Infiltrator
    Zemo gets to use any of these guys and can do so depending on the situation. Jean, Whirlwind, and Skull drop people next to Blob and take out anyone who can kill Blob with autowounds. Skullsy and Meteorite remove OMs as needed. Skullsy transfers wounds around. Jean Grey keeps people from getting too close. Meteorite keeps people from using range and other clear sight powers. If all else fails, Zemo plays his Adhesive "You Lose a Turn" Trap.
  • Crime Alley Crooks x4, Gentleman Ghost, Chronos, Shadow Thief, Booster Gold, Ozymandias, Ragdoll, Atom


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Last edited by Soundwarp SG-1; September 6th, 2014 at 12:24 AM.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 12:11 AM
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Re: Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

Thanks! Hopefully all you guys found this as helpful as I did!

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #3  
Old September 6th, 2014, 12:16 AM
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Re: Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

Don't forget @Dysole 's super simple, easy-to-remember, version:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
As to the terminology, brief rundown (although I vary on whether I think the usage will help my meaning)

Rock-y = something that allows the unit to avoid disruption from the enemy (event hero, huge, intangibility) and just be a big rock wailing on things

Paper-y = something that allows you to get a ton of activations or attacks; looks good on paper

Scissor-y = something that disrupts your opponent (stuck, movement powers, OM stealing/removal). Cuts up their plans.
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Old September 6th, 2014, 12:23 AM
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Re: Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

Yeah, I forgot that one. I'll add it to the first post, thanks.


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Old September 6th, 2014, 12:33 AM
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Re: Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
Don't forget @Dysole 's super simple, easy-to-remember, version:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
As to the terminology, brief rundown (although I vary on whether I think the usage will help my meaning)

Rock-y = something that allows the unit to avoid disruption from the enemy (event hero, huge, intangibility) and just be a big rock wailing on things

Paper-y = something that allows you to get a ton of activations or attacks; looks good on paper

Scissor-y = something that disrupts your opponent (stuck, movement powers, OM stealing/removal). Cuts up their plans.
I hadn't seen this easy to remember version. Thanks.

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Old September 6th, 2014, 01:11 AM
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I Think I Know Why

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
Don't forget @Dysole 's super simple, easy-to-remember, version:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
As to the terminology, brief rundown (although I vary on whether I think the usage will help my meaning)

Rock-y = something that allows the unit to avoid disruption from the enemy (event hero, huge, intangibility) and just be a big rock wailing on things

Paper-y = something that allows you to get a ton of activations or attacks; looks good on paper

Scissor-y = something that disrupts your opponent (stuck, movement powers, OM stealing/removal). Cuts up their plans.
I hadn't seen this easy to remember version. Thanks.
That's probably because I wrote it up today.

~Dysole, who could probably come up with some more archetypal armies with some thought
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Old September 6th, 2014, 01:17 AM
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Re: Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

How did I miss that one? I was all over the place on here most of the day today.

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Old February 5th, 2021, 01:07 PM
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Re: Rock-Paper-Scissors: Competitive Play 101

Didn't want this to get lost...so porting it here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshFoods View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Wonder Woman does best in Paper Armies. Martian Manhunter does best in Scissor armies. Your preference for army type is going to influence which one you want more.

~Dysole, not sure how many people are still familiar with that terminology
I’ve never heard of armies being described like that, could you explain what they are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Rock - Ignores abilities, usually a small number of figures, hits really hard (Most event heroes, Massed White Martians)

Paper - Throws a lot of quality attacks, often the ones that people gravitate to and look the best "on paper" (Fan 4 builds, Avengers builds, Prof X builds)

Scissors - Focused on disruptive powers and messing with the opponent's strategy (Armies that are focused around things like throwing figures into engagement with Blob, stealing OMs with Ozymandias, removing clear sight, etc.)

In general Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock

You can hybridize some of these (Legionnaires feels like a really good example of a Paper/Scissors hybrid) but it's a real good way to think of army composition. dok and I tend to love Scissors builds while most of the community gravitates toward Paper and then you'll have people like MegaSilver who loves Rock builds.

~Dysole, hoping that's clear enough
I'd be interested to get an analysis on how Wonder Woman is Paper (I'd view her as Rock given the above definition) and how Martian Manhunter is Scissors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
WW is a Paper with a Scissor ability. She works great in JL or Champion builds which are paper builds. It's very rare you're going to add her into a scissor army though.

MM fits so nicely into Scissors builds since a lot of them love being able to place figures where they need to be. That's the gist of it.

~Dysole, informationally
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
OK so Rock ignores things but only passively? Her lasso struck me as more rock (nullification) than Scissors (figure movement). But maybe I misunderstand what Rock is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Anti-Monitor is a great example of a rock. Huge Event Hero so immune to almost all annoying effects. Can literally just destroy figures. What your opponent does is kinda inconsequential; you're gonna play him the same way every time. That's kinda what I mean. A paper or scissors build is much more responsive to what the opponent does than a rock build. A rock build is just gonna truck along and do its thing.

~Dysole, hoping that clarifies
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
OK, I think that makes some sense. Though going for Anti’s auto destroy is generally a bad play unless you have multiple targets.

Would common swarms with only one real place to put Order Markers qualify as rocks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Not impossible but usually no. If you're throwing a lot of attacks you're more paper. Rocks tend to have a small number of big attacks.

~Dysole, who really should go find the original discussion her, dok, and soundwarp had on all this
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
So Paper = Normal maximization of turn/attack efficiency
Scissors = Disruption of normal turn/attack efficiency
Rock = Shrugs off disruption and keeps moving forward slowly

More or less? (I do think completely tidy categories for these are difficult, since most cards and armies represent little bits from at least two areas and sometimes three).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
Roughly.

~Dysole, agreeing that many units/armies are hybrids

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