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  #4129  
Old February 20th, 2011, 01:16 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Thank you so much for doing this, UtahScott! I will get these updated soon....
I appreciate your intent to update this, but remember: the "reviewed maps" list now exceeds the 15K character limit for posts (this includes all hidden characters that make up URL links); the "nominated maps" list is barely under the cap. That size will double when I add the "no vote" posts--I'll have to subdivide them a year or two at a time.

I agree with Dad_Scaper: links should remain in the bylaws post (post #2), but they need a permanent home somewhere else. I'll maintain them for now, but I'm open to suggestions for the best place. A new stickied thread in the maps section, perhaps?

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  #4130  
Old February 20th, 2011, 01:29 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Eggbeater by dok
I have played a bunch of games on this map and I really like it. I really like what Dok has done with the 3 sets on this map. It has a small footprint, comparable to Fossil by Rÿchean. They have some commonalities but are different enough to play very differently. Aesthetically, I like the look of the battlefield. Glyphs were located well, so that they were a focus of the battle, but not too easily protected. The shadow spaces along the middle were useful as well. They weren't used a lot, but they did give a nice extra option when considering advances through the center area. I like that symmetry is maintained with the rock outcroppings to balance out the large tree. The roads also seemed to play nicely allowing melee to advance and engage a little quicker. Overall I like this map. It has some similarities to several other maps, but is unique enough to make it work for me. Yes to induct Eggbeater.

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  #4131  
Old February 26th, 2011, 11:24 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Gents, I hope you'll forgive this topic coming up again, but I'd like to ask whether the esteemed judges of the BoV might consider revisiting the rule prohibiting the use of uncapped wall segments.

I know that in its current ruling, the BoV is simply hewing to what is specified in the FotA rulebook, which reads:

"When building Fortress Walls, follow the rules below:
• Each Wall Section must sit on a Base or another Wall Section.
• Each Wall Section must have a Wall Walk or another Wall Section on top of it.
• Fortress Walls may not sit on water tiles or other tiles considered to have no height."

But I think the case could be made for a contextualist interpretation of these lines. For it seems clear to me that the intention behind these rules is to point out what is necessary to do if you want to make a functioning castle. That is, they are intended to be descriptive, not prescriptive.

Or to put it another way: as the rules themselves say, they are to be followed "when building Fortress Walls". To which my response is "But I'm not trying to build the walls of a Fortress. I'm using the segments for other purposes." In which case, the rules for building fortresses don't apply.

I wouldn't bring this up if WotC hadn't pulled the plug on Heroscape. But the sad fact is that some of the best LoS blockers — glacier mountains, and evergreen trees — are from sets which are long dead and almost impossible to find. This is why it seems more important than ever to reconsider our position on uncapped wall segments used as stand-alone pillars. It's not just that they make AMAZINGLY good (and flexible) LoS blockers. It's that a single FotA set provides a HUGE number of them — and that FotA is one of the few sets still easily available.

Allowing uncapped segments in BoV maps would unleash a creative surge in tournament-oriented mapmaking, I bet, and allow the community to take advantage of a whole bunch of currently-untapped terrain ideally suited to making melee-friendly maps.

Last edited by Typhon2222; February 27th, 2011 at 10:48 AM.
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  #4132  
Old February 27th, 2011, 12:15 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I for one like the idea of uncapped pillars. I don't see why we can't change the guide lines.

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  #4133  
Old February 27th, 2011, 08:14 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I second- Many of my favorite maps that I am play testing now (Will be uploaded to my map thread soon) use uncapped pillars. In addition to blocking LoS, they channel the path of battle. They really help balance out asymmetric maps- they can be placed in front of a strategic hex (glyph, height, etc) so each side has an equal shot at them (figures would have to go around and it would take more move). Another good point is that without capping the tiles, it opens up more road (wall walk) terrain.

So I expect we'll see a lot more maps like "the broken skyline" if this change is set in motion. Some LoS pillars, some capped pillars, and a bunch of road criscrossing everywhere.

Your main arguement is that the tiles "won't look pretty," which I completely understand. But this is Heroscape- battle was never pretty and the functionality of the games wasn't to make "pretty" maps. This is to identify tournament maps, and if a map that has a pillar(s) without a cap through a wall walk or another pillar on top is good enough and is not recognized, it kind of defeats the purpose of this thread.
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  #4134  
Old February 27th, 2011, 08:19 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

If you read the Bylaws you would see that in section 2 they do judge based on aesthetics. Which is very important to me.

I do see your point on FotA being the most available set and having the best LoS blockers, but I would hate to see the quality of this thread diminish.

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  #4135  
Old February 27th, 2011, 09:05 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

I will talk with the other judges, but I honestly don't see this rule changing (maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see it).

For those unconcerned with aesthetics, the FotA is a great stand in for the Road Expansion--just use the walls for trees. There are a number of maps you can make with this substitution.

However, I believe the intent of the BoV (established before I joined, but I support it) is to create maps that follow all rules and guidelines for terrain, creating near-official maps that are highly playable, as well as attractive.

I do, of course, encourage those who want to test and play on maps with untopped castle walls to do so. As has been said, the BoV is not the only source for maps, just (I believe) an excellent source for the kinds of maps we focus on providing.

EDIT: I also finally got the updated lists that UtahScott did for us linked to the first page (second post). Thank you, again, for all your work on that UtahScott!

Last edited by 1Mmirg; February 27th, 2011 at 09:38 AM.
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  #4136  
Old February 27th, 2011, 11:14 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by tcglkn View Post
If you read the Bylaws you would see that in section 2 they do judge based on aesthetics. Which is very important to me.

I do see your point on FotA being the most available set and having the best LoS blockers, but I would hate to see the quality of this thread diminish.
Huh, objecting to uncapped wall segments on aesthetic grounds seems....unexpected to me.

It must depend on what one's term of comparison is. I mean, given the choice between using an uncapped wall or a tree — I agree, the tree will usually look better. But given the choice between using an uncapped wall or nothing (because, say, my supply of RttFF trees is limited) — in that case, I'm sure many would agree the wall segment looks a lot more aesthetically interesting than the nothing alternative.

I don't think the aesthetic quality of a map like this suffers for using uncapped segments, for example. It's Darkmage's Don't Walk, Run. I had the opportunity to see it at the recent Immortals Tournament, and thought it looked gorgeous.


Last edited by Typhon2222; February 27th, 2011 at 04:23 PM.
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  #4137  
Old February 27th, 2011, 11:37 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
I will talk with the other judges
Thanks 1Mmirg!


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Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
As has been said, the BoV is not the only source for maps, just (I believe) an excellent source for the kinds of maps we focus on providing.
Both statements are absolutely true, of course.
It's also true that the BoV and its guidelines exert a massive gravitational force on those crafting potential tournament maps. As a result, you just don't see many tourney-caliber ones featuring self-sufficient wall segments. They remain one of the least-explored aspects of map design, largely, I suspect, because people know the BoV doesn't consider them.

Last edited by Typhon2222; February 27th, 2011 at 04:19 PM.
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  #4138  
Old February 27th, 2011, 07:48 PM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
I will talk with the other judges, but I honestly don't see this rule changing (maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see it).
I'm glad to see that this discussion is still able to reinvestigated from time to time. I believe I've already presented my case for such changes to the system in the past. Most of which is still true. However as others have recently pointed out, some things have changed such as the discontinuation by WOTC. Perhaps it is time, yet again, for the BoV to re-evaluate what it is able to offer to the rest of the scaping community. The BoV is a honored and respected panel to be sure. As such it is quite likely to hold most of the sway in terms TD choices and what is considered acceptable in the competitive tournament scene. So while it is not the only place to find maps it does have a tendency to set the standard for anyone who wants to hold a tournament.

Thanks for taking the time Mmirg and Judges.
~DM7A

Last edited by Darkmage7a; February 27th, 2011 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Personally I believe your work is under-appreciated.
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  #4139  
Old February 28th, 2011, 09:48 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

Fire Swamp by Killercactus

I didn't even playtest rats on this map as Matthias did. But a variety of other units found bottlenecks here a problem. A few units can excell on this map...those with lava resistance and flight units (especially single-spaced or ranged) and the Microcorp. Others are bogged down so much by this map, that they will need tons of luck and great strategy not to be picked off if the other side has any of the mentioned advantages above. I think this map makes stronger a group of units that are already tough on pretty much any map. I'm going to have to vote NO for induction.

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  #4140  
Old February 28th, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Typhon2222 View Post
I don't think the aesthetic quality of a map like this suffers for using uncapped segments,
I don't mind playing with uncapped wall segments. But they are particularly unattractive, and (despite your quality rules lawyering) specifically forbidden by the rules.

I'm not sure what there is for Mmirg to "talk about" with the other judges. The BoV is a bastion of conservatism, like GenCon. You will not see illegal maps in the BoV and you will not see customs - not C3V, not SoV, none - at GenCon.

It's probably for the best for the hobby that there survive institutions like that.

Make quality maps and they'll get played, unsightly uncapped pillars and all.

Walk, Don't Run appears to direct all the traffic to a single choke point & I'm not sure I'd want to use it, regardless of the capping of the pillars, but maybe that's just me.

AliasQTip just put together a very interesting map with "uncapped" pillars for our event in Savage; I hope he posts it soon. *That* one I liked and I would use at another tournament any time. Of course, he insisted on putting "inaccessible" wall walk on top of each pillar for aesthetic reasons, and thus my long post comes full circle and begins to eat its tail.

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