C3G HR Department: the Dumping Ground

[Griffin]

This thread has really evolved into something other than what was intended, so from here on out it will act as a dumping ground for feelings, expressions, disappointments, and anything that you need to get off of your chest in a safe non-judgmental environment. This is a place to vent or express any concerns you may have without taking other threads off topic. Don't be shy or nervous, if you have something to say, it is best to do it here than in another thread where you are likely to be frowned upon.

This is an open discussion, so please, anyone can comment on this whether you are a sidekick, hero, fan, or ally. Thanks.

[IAmBatman]

Great post, Griff! I agree that this is really something we need to start talking about as we move to ala cart. For instance, guys like Sir G and Velenne who have shown a commitment to playtesting and discussing these units seem like exactly the type of new blood we want around.
And people want to be part of this project now - so shouldn't we make sure those who are, especially those who have one of a very few select votes determining the direction of the project, really earn that right with a high level of activity (and the right sort of activity)?
For instance, I've been really thrilled by all the community participation in playtesting as of late. This makes me think - well why do we have votes and these guys don't? It seems like if you're going to be a hero, some level of playtesting should be an expectation - heck, even a requirement if you want to stay an active voting hero.
GreyOwl is guy I would probably consider an exception from this, because he's our official art guy - he puts hours and hours into putting all of this onto cards and into PDFs. He's earned his place for all time in this project as far as I'm concerned.
But, I wouldn't say that any of the rest of us are essential, including myself. Heck, if I went more than a month without playtesting, I'd say I was no longer worthy of a vote.

[Griffin]

I agree that GO does enough work for the group to guaranty his Hero status for life. In fact, if you disappear Bats, GO would need to take over leadership here IMO.

[IAmBatman]

I think that you would be an excellent choice for a replacement leader if such a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible event were to ever occur where I could no longer be part of the project (horrible!), due to your great level of passion for the project and your talents as a motivator.
Buuuuut ... that's not really the point of this thread, so let's stay on task and hopefully get some comments from others.

[Griffin]

Well the bigger point that I want to make is this, If there are going to be requirements for Sidkicks and Heroes, I think that GO should be exempt as long as he continues to head the art and graphic design of our cards, glyphs, rulebooks, etc. The amount of hours that dude pours into this project, is honestly already more than I would ever ask from one member.

[IAmBatman]

Oh, yeah, I didn't mention him as an exemption by accident. But I don't think any of the rest of us should be off the hook when it comes to setting a standard with something like playtesting.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Well, I think dedication should be a key. As Grif stated, both Hahma and I used to be nothing, then Sidekicks, now Heroes. But our paths were very different. Hahma started off creating his own stuff and not really participating in this. Then when playtesting seemed to hit a wall, all of a sudden he chimed in and asked to playtest. It was kinda a godsend. I am not sure World's Finest would be out now without Hahma's playtesting. I on the other hand am the Superfan. I started off with no voting interest, no creative control, just a desire to see my favorite characters go from print to plastic if you will. I loved using the stuff by Balantai, Greyowl, Garada, and IamBatman. I knew of Whitestuff via his Gimptute. MattHelm was just starting to do customs. It was a fun time to just log on, debate things, share opinions, and have fun. I chimed in where I could, which usually involved minis or character background. I was the original Member of the C3G Target Audience. I just showed that no matter who came or went I was sticking around to see this through. In a narrow vote, I was made a Sidekick. What an awesome feeling! Then I got the chance to break a tie vote, how exciting! Then when things slowed down, and Heroes started dropping like flies, I stuck around. I didn't have the amount of stuff necessary to playtest at the time, but I would chime in with ideas when problems arose during playtesting. I read every post and playtest. Do I remember them all, no. But I doubt anyone does. And during this low point I was made a Hero. I look forward to ala carte and submitting my first design. I plan to pick after all Heroes and Sidekicks pick, as many of them are designers I respect as far superior to myself. I have learned so much from them, I really hope they appreciate what I post. And I hope they can see that their time spent tutoring me has not been wasted.

Oh yeah, and as far as input goes, when C3G World's finest was being designed I had no power. When X-Men was being divied up for creation I stepped back as I knew some of them were uncomfortable with my abilities and I didn't blame them. I was raw, but I am trying to learn and I think I am ready for this. BTW, 5th Precinct Beat Cops, my idea. I had no vote, no power and my idea got on the card. I found the bases nearly everyone is currently using for rebasing and I got the ball rolling on converting Greyowls sticker sheet to what Cav has now by asking he and Garada if making something precut to their size was possible. So that's my contribution, if anyone feels I am unworthy!

[IAmBatman]

This definitely isn't a thread about calling anyone out or saying anyone is unworthy. It's about what it takes to hold the project together in the future and the standard we need to set ourselves for the future.
If we add a hero, don't we want to add a hero who will do some of the heavy lifting (playtesting) on a regular basis? And can we really hold that hero to that standard if we're not holding ourselves to that same standard?
There's also the idea of what it takes to make an informed vote. Theoryscaping is great, but I can say for a fact that I have learned so much about what we do, what makes a card work, what it's like to balance something for these sets, and so on, just from playing with the figures on a regular basis. I may be biased, but I truly believe that a vote from a regular playtester on a design or costing matter is so much more informed than the vote of a non-playtester or mere theoryscaper. This even holds true for someone who's recently playtested an entirely different unit, because they're still active in the game, still getting a feel for these customs on a regular basis.
Don't we want our voters - our major decision makers - to be informed voters and decision makers?

[IAmBatman]

If we had six heroes (GreyOwl exempted) and we each put aside 2 hours a month (2 in a whole month) to playtest and fill out a full feedback sheet, that's 72 feedback sheets filled out per year, which equals 24 units produced per year. I think that should be the minimum standard we set for ourselves as a group.
Can we get out more figures if a few of the members go above and beyond? Absolutely. But, at the same time, is it fair to expect just a few of the members to pull so much of the weight? I don't think it is.
I want to do about 500 or 600 units before all is said and done (and that's a conservative estimate!). But I don't want to wait 20 years for it all to happen.
A high level of participation from a high number of people is what's going to make that happen. And those people who are really doing the heavy lifting deserve to be rewarded for it, in my opinion.
So if someone asked me - what makes a C3G Hero, I would say - it's someone who gives regular input, who is an experienced designer, who cares about collaboration, who puts logic and commitment into voting, who is passionate about superheroscape, and who is read and willing to get his hands dirty and do some playtesting (because, let's face it, he loves playing with this stuff!).

[Griffin]

First off, Spidey you need to know how much we respect you. You are sorta the voice of the group. When we are all at each others throats over this or that, you are the one that reminds us to keep the integrity of the character in mind.

I think that this thread is necessary to discuss what our requirements are for future members. We need some standards, even if those standards are not ones that we would have met when we were inducted.

I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect all members (sidekicks and heroes) to submit one playtest form each month. That is only about 2 hours out of about 720 hours per month. What gives one of us the right, privilege, or authority to be a voting member? I can tell you that I don't think any of us are one of the top 3 Comic Customs designers on the site (except for Matt Helm, he is probably my #1), so that is not what validates any of us IMO.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yes, which is why in the past, when I was unable to playtest, I would listen to the playtesters. Never once (except when it seemed to be just you, me, Necro, hahma, and MattHelm) did I raise a question about anything. I have followed the lead of those playtesting. I read what they say and formed an educated opinion. I generally don't try to rock the boat during this. Usually voting when it is necessary or seems to be unanimous. I won't ever be the playtester Hahma is, I don't have the time. So, if that is what everyone feels is the standard, I venture their aren't many who measure up, myself first and foremost. But as I told Griffin, I have really collected alot of stuff in the last 6 months, so I plan to playtest as much as I can. Right now my job requires me to work alot of weekends, times when I could otherwise be playtesting as I have no life, LOL. When March rolls around I hope to be able to do more. And Bats, no offense but if you aren't calling me out, then who is this aimed at? (Not that I am offended, I have no problem defending myself if need be, although I wouldn't want to come across Griffin or Greyowl in a dark alley, based on recent posts.)

[IAmBatman]

I'm not calling anyone out and this isn't about anyone. Just like the units we design aren't about anyone specific, neither is this. It's about collaboration - it's about what it takes to keep this project healthy and kicking for the longterm.
One of the things it takes is a commitment, as a group, to the standard of playtesting.
No one's asking anyone to be a Hahma here. Hahma probably kicks out 4 playtests a month, at minimum. The man is a monster and a machine, and if we held him up as the standard, I think he'd be the only one left in this project.
All I'm saying is that we should each be able to find 2 hours a month - just 2 hours - to devote to this project. With the amount of time we all manage to find to post on here, I find it hard to believe we can't all devote at least that much. Heck, there are people out there right now who are merely fans of the project who seem able to devote many times that much. Shouldn't we show ourselves to be leaders and at least do this as a bare minimum?