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  #1  
Old August 25th, 2009, 06:03 PM
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Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

Since the Heavy Gruts performed so well at GenCon this year, I've gotten to thinking about some other melee armies. First things first though - why did the Heavy Gruts / Grimnak do so well this year?

1) Rat dominance in the meta-game
2) Smaller maps and LOS blockers help melee
3) Chomp ignores Raelin's Aura
4) Raelin is a great asset due to Grimnak's survivability, the target on his back, and the Orcs tendency to bunch up. The smaller maps make it easier for Raelin to maneuver with a melee force.

When I thought about these points, I realized that there are some other melee armies that might have close to the success that the Orcs have enjoyed.

I'm not going to go into the Knights here. It's obvious that they can be a strong build on their own - small maps or not. Their base defense of 4, multitude of bonding options and "double-movement" of Jandar's Dispatch are clearly their strongest assets. They should be in any conversation concerning the strength of melee armies.

How about some of the other melee armies out there, though?

Hivelord / Nagrubs

This is the army that really got me thinking about making this thread. When I thought about the advantages the Orcs had and tried to think about what armies compared to them, I thought of the Hivelord builds - particularly with Tor-Kul-Na and including Raelin. Let's look at the points again:

1) Rats - Tor-Kul-Na's Trample Stomp prevents Scatter and, while not automatic, has the ability to get rid of multiple Rats in a turn.
2) Smaller maps help - check.
3) Ignores Raelin - Again, Tor-Kul-Na has a Special Power that can ignore Raelin's Aura.
4) Raelin makes sense - Tor-Kul-Na has 6 life (usually more thanks to Hivelord Life Bonding), which makes Raelin a great partner for him. Plus, due to Hivelord Life Bonding, the Nagrubs have an incentive to stick close to their Hivelord, making it easier for Raelin to cover everyone. Not only that, the Nagrubs small defense of 2 means they benefit more from Raelin's Aura then say, a Heavy Grut or Knight would, and every Nagrub saved could potentially be an extra life point for Tor-Kul-Na (or another Hivelord, both of which are great Raelin partners as well).

The crutch of the Hivelord army is that the Nagrubs are relatively weak attackers, so they usually need some support for the moment with Tor-Kul-Na finally goes down. There are plenty of options though with the points that will be remaining.

Tor-Kul-Na - 220
Marrden Nagrubs x3 - 310
Raelin - 390
Other Support (110) - 500

I've gotta go now, but to be continued.... talk of the Romans, Dwarves, Sacred Band, Zombies and Dividers....

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  #2  
Old August 25th, 2009, 06:24 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
Tor-Kul-Na - 220
Marrden Nagrubs x3 - 310
Raelin - 390
Other Support (110) - 500
As a card-carrying stompy-supporter, I'm with you 100% on this. I think TKN could have done very well.

If I had gone, and assuming I didn't chicken out and play knights & Nilfheim, my main event army would have been:

220 Tor-Kul-Na
90 Marrden Nagrubs x3
180 Major Q9
490

So... that doesn't have Raelin in it, obviously. I completely agree that Raelin helps this army out a lot, and it's tough to leave her out. I really like the idea of giving the Nagrubs 4 defense dice. That said, this was a "play for day 2" build. I'd be adding Raelin for sure on the skull, probably on the shield, and possibly even on the symbol. And it's not as though Q9 without Raelin is a big hindrance on day 1.

However, now that I think about it, Raelin+KMA may have been better for day 1. I could go Marro Warriors + Eldgrim on a Skull, Airborne Elite on a shield, and Q10 or Kaemon + Eldgrim on a symbol - all good options.

---

Of course, TKN's ability to break a rat screen is limited by terrain - rats placed in the right spots can be made stomp proof. (This was part of the reason I wanted Q9 - it gave me a backup option to clear out the rats.) On the other hand, the hivelord army is less vulnerable to 'trons than the orc army, because stomp can take out more 'trons than chomp. It's more vulnerable to a stinger-horde, though.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 06:27 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

I think Tor-Kul-Na-Grubs is actually quite viable.

Clarissimus did quite well with them (usually 3-2, 3-1-1, or 4-1) at a number of tournaments around the country last year, including 3-1-1 at the GenCon main event and beating Lonewolf on day 1 (which was counted as 3-2; he should have made day 2 with TKN, 3x NG's, AE, and Gurei-Oni!)

Zealot has been a staunch TKN supporter too. I'm pretty sure he has won at least one tourney with him.

The other thing that makes TKN and a number of other builds seem viable is how often you see people just bringing one Champion/Warlord/whatever and experiencing success with Heavies or Knights. That makes bonding combos that really only have one good option (Dwarves, Sacred Band, Armocs, Spiders?! etc)* suddenly seem more viable.

I had been thinking a lot (prior to GenCon) that Raelin was almost explicitly an anti-melee figure because she mostly boosts ranged figures because it's easier for them to stay in her aura. But patiently played Heavies or just about any other melee force can make use of her if the map is small enough.

*Random thoughts:

Marcus 100
4x Sacred Band 300
Airborne Elite 410
James Murphy 485
Isamu 495 (23 hexes, all disciplined)

Venoc Warlord 120
Marro Warriors 170
5x Armoc Vipers 500

3x Axegrinders 210
Migol 320
Krav 420
Raelin 500

Sujoah 185
7x Spiders 465
... Guilty? 495

TKN 220
3x Nagrubs 310
Lots of room: Nilfheim, Q9, Raelin+Krav/AE, 3x Stingers, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old August 25th, 2009, 06:49 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I had been thinking a lot (prior to GenCon) that Raelin was almost explicitly an anti-melee figure because she mostly boosts ranged figures because it's easier for them to stay in her aura. But patiently played Heavies or just about any other melee force can make use of her if the map is small enough.
True. But how much they benefit varies pretty heavily. The lower the defense of the squad figures, relative to their value, the more Raelin helps. The more the squad figures rely on mobility/swarming, the less Raelin helps.

But most of all, it's the presence of a big hitter champion on the front line, who benefits from Raelin's aura, that makes Raelin so useful. This is why the Hivelord army is a good comparison. I'd argue that Migol+Dwarves would be the next most obvious one. Migol+Dwarves+Raelin+KA sounds good at 520.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 07:37 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

The Definitive List of Melee Squads:

Anubian Wolves
Armoc Vipers
Ashigaru Yari
Axegrinders of Burning Forge
Blade Gruts
Capuan Gladiators
Deathreavers
Deathstalkers
Dzu-Teh
Einar Imperium
Elite Onyx Vipers
Fyorlag Spiders
Gladiatrons
Grok Riders
Heavy Gruts
Izumi Samurai
Knights of Weston
Kozuke Samurai
MacDirk Warriors
Marrden Hounds
Marrden Nagrubs
Marro Dividers
Marro Drones
Minions of Utgar
Ninjas of the Northern Wind
Obsidian Guards
Rechets of Bogdan
Roman Legionnaires
Sacred Band
Sentinels of Jandar
Shades of Bleakwoode
Shaolin Monks
Tagawa Samurai
Tarn Viking Warriors
Templar Cavalry
Venoc Vipers
Warriors of Ashra
Wolves of Badru
Zombies of Morindan
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Old August 25th, 2009, 07:41 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

Reminds me of a weird idea I had:

Steampunkroller
4x Deathreavers 160
2x Capuans 300
Spartacus 500

Or some variant of the above, based on the points. But it seems terribly fragile. First round Deathreavers, else: Gladiators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old August 25th, 2009, 07:56 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

TKN + Grubs is probably my favorite thing to play. Absolutely so much fun rolling out the tank. I like TKN + 2x Grubs (all I have is 1x SotM) + Raelin + 2x stingers (again because that is all I have) + whatever 20 points extra will get you. I think it would do pretty well. The 2x stingers in there is nice because with Raelin in there they get Q9-like survivability, but Raelin also contributes to a near unkillable TKN. So pretty much your whole army is unkillable now.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 08:51 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Venoc Warlord 120
Marro Warriors 170
5x Armoc Vipers 500
Um... the Armocs are 65 points per squad. This comes out to 495 (not that it matters).

I've noticed that there are two main characteristics of melee units that make them work well: speed and toughness. Fast units rely on a high move number and/or abilities like flying to quickly close in on ranged figures. Tough units, on the other hand, rely on a high defense and/or defensive abilities to protect them as they approach ranged figures.

It would be interesting to try to graph all of the melee units in the game on mobility vs. survivability and try to find a trend for what is considered to be competitive. I suspect a lot of the good ones are down the middle (i.e. Dwarves, Heavies, Gladiators, etc.). Of course, point cost is another factor to consider, so it may have to be made into a three dimensional graph, and we can assume a bonding hero for some squads, so that'll also have to be factored in... (goes off to obsess about graphing)

I, for one, think that the Monks should be looked at a bit closer. Shaolin Assault could be invaluable against armies that need to stick together such as the Vydar ranged pod that has become so popular lately. A move of six with a defense of three puts them a little more toward the mobility side of things, and Stealth Leap pushes them even more so in that direction, but they're a solid unit. Shame they don't have bonding...

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Old August 25th, 2009, 09:48 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

Great topic, killercactus. I find it amusing that you're seeking armies that benefit most from Raelin, while at the same time defeating her.

Melee units can be viable in the right setting, as we witnessed from GenCon. This makes me wonder about the Armoc Vipers' viability for tournaments. Only 3 members per squad hurts, but they're quick with solid stats. If there was another bonding option, they'd be even better, but it seems we'll have to wait a while for that.

This army looks good for 500 points:
120 Venoc Warlord
120 Raelin SotM
260 4x Armoc Vipers
500

Armocs and Mittens are your Bread and Butter; Raelin raises the Armocs to that crucial 4th defense die.
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Old August 25th, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

I didn't go to Gencon, so I don't know if they had much of a presence, but I love the Axgrinders with the Nakitas. I usually put the Krav in too just to draw fire while my Nakitas help the dwarves with smokepowder. One unique thing about the dwarves is that, from my experience, they seem to do better by at the beginning of the game charging them without Migol so their six move can get them to the enemy quickly.

If you wanted Raelin you could subsitute her and both ten point ninjas for the Krav.

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Old August 25th, 2009, 10:32 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

OK, to continue my discussion....

Romans / Warlords

The Romans are another melee-based army that's been somewhat overlooked now that the Knights are so popular. As the point toals increase, the cheap Romans begin to look less and less attractive. The only Special Power that the Romans / Warlords have that gets around Raelin / Rats is Me-Burq-Sa's Paralyzing Stare, which is pretty unreliable. However, they do benefit from the smaller maps, but they also benefit greatly from Raelin. Again, the Romans have a tendency to cluster up, thanks to Shield Wall and Marcus' attack boost, making Raelin look more appealing. Their base defense of 2 also makes Raelin look like a good helper, and even though they get up to 4 from Shield Wall, if one dies that number can drop.

Plus, it should be remembered that Marcus is one of the very few Heroscape units that can grant an attack bonus to ranged figures. Both the Airborne Elite, 4th Massachusettes Line and 10th Regiment of Foot can get a nice boost from him. The cheap price tag of the Romans allows them to draft some ranged support while matching numbers with the Knights or Orcs. At 500 points, a cute little army might be:

Marcus - 100
Romans x3 - 250 (or drop a squad for MBS)
Airborne Elite - 360 (could also sub for Valguard)
4th Massachusettes Line x2 - 500

Sacred Band / Warlords

I could say many of the same things about the Sacred Band, but they don't benefit nearly as much from Raelin as the Romans do. They need Parmenio to discipline her, and their strength lies in being able to spread out. They're better suited to draft a bunch of ranged, disciplined soldiers IMO.

Dwarves

The Dwarves are still a wildcard in my eyes. They seem to me like a slightly weaker version of Knights - a 70 point, 4 figure squad that can get better movement and has a solid hero. They have a metagame advantage if heroes like Q9, Nilfheim and Braxas get more popular in favor of squads. Raelin helps Migol's One Shield Defense, and can be of some help to the Dwarves if they want to utilize the bonding and only move 4 spaces, staying close to Migol, but its not my favorite place for her amongst melee armies. She might have some value alongside the Krav here though to draw the opponent in, so that the Dwarves can become engaged and not lose anything to activate Migol.

Zombies

Ahhh.... the Zombies. One of the more underrated units in my opinion. When considering the 4 reasons the Orcs performed so well, the Zombies popped into my head as well. Lets take a look again:

1) Rats - the Zombies are one of the few melee squads afforded a Special Attack, which can prevent Scatter. Also, Deathreavers are Small and not Undead, making them vulnerable to Zombies Rise Again. Plus, if the Deathreavers tie down the Zombies, Horde Movement will allow them to move up reinforcements while still attacking the Rats. It actually seems like a good situation for the Zombies.
2) Smaller maps - that oncoming horde of Zombies looks a lot scarier when it starts closer to you.
3) Ignore Raelin's Aura - Zombie Onslaught is usually strong enough to pierce Raelin's Aura. If you can get into Onslaught position, the Zombies can just attack right through her.
4) Raelin makes sense - if there's any melee squad in the game that Raelin makes sense for, this is it. Horde Movement has Raelin written all over it. The slow Zombies can move 6 figures at a time and not very far - the perfect situation for Raelin to fly out and wait as the Zombies shamble into her aura. Then, once they reach the enemy, Raelin can help keep the engaged figures alive so that reinforcements can move up while the engaged Zombies attack. Plus, if Raelin is close enough to protect the engaged Zombies, any Zombies that Rise Again may very well also be in her Aura! Raelin is a must-draft alongside the Zombies. On small maps at 500 points, this army might be quite intimidating...

Raelin - 80
Zombies x7 - 500

Dividers

Again, another wildcard army because I haven't really seen a lot of results yet. But, the Dividers seem to have the survivability to be a real melee force.

I don't think Raelin is too great an asset to the Dividers, but she might be quite a psychological force with them. Between their decent base defense of 3 and Cell Divide, the Dividers can seem annoying enough to kill. Raelin can increase that annoyance, as well as casting her aura over any new Dividers lucky enough to be reborn. At only 3 attacks per Order Marker and 3 figures moving, they might have some issues though. Further playtesting is in order.

One thing that, out of these armies only the Dwarves have, is the presence of a hard-hitting Hero with a bunch of life for Raelin to protect, just like dok pointed out. I think that was one thing that made the Orcs so dangerous - the inability to kill Grimnak quickly before he could wreak havoc. That's where she's at her best - when those extra shields she provides actually help more often due to squad figures "excess skull immunity". However, the Romans, Band and Zombies all have ways to get big attacks - just no big target for Raelin to protect. But, that's the point (at least with the Romans and Zombies anyway) - Raelin can be useful to them even without that big target.

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Old August 25th, 2009, 10:45 PM
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Re: Looking at "Other" Melee Armies, and Raelin Musings

I'm a big fan of Melee, but not raelin so much. I put her in the builds anyway, but I'm just not good/patient enough to keep guys in her aura.
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