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Old May 9th, 2008, 05:29 PM
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Low-cost Counters to Heavy Hitters

Okay, so you wanna get rid of Q9? Draft Jotun and he should be able to clobber the Major in a couple swings before getting Queglixed to death. Then again, Jotun is a great counter to a lot of units. Problem? Yeah, about 225 of them. I'm working on putting together a list of units that are good counters to figures that cost considerably more than they do.

The guidelines are that the counter must cost half as much as the target. They must have a decent chance at putting nice damage on the target (or some sort of instant kill). They must have a decent chance at not being murdered before getting the chance to attack at least twice (with consecutive order markers). They preferably are immune to the target's power(s). I welcome any comments and/or suggestions. I will continue this list as far as it takes me, but for now let's start at the top...

Jotun - 225 points

Otonashi (10 points) - Jotun is Wild, so you could do some damage, but you'd better strike first.

Dumutef Guard (25 points) - If on a road space, the road troll's defense and attack are both at least 5. Only 1 life is a problem, but at a nice cost, you can probably get off a few hits on Jotun without running the risk of being thrown.

Marro Warriors (50 points) - If the map allows you to spread them out enough, Jotun will kill at most one MW per turn. If you can run away, you can easily clone more back and be back to pester him. (thanks, Jexik)

Deadeye Dan (60 points) - I am personally not a fan of this strategy, but if you're feeling lucky, Sharpshooting Jotun from afar is a great feeling.

Zetacron (60 points) - A couple good rolls could devestate Jotun - a couple bad rolls could waste some turns. Get height if you can to decrease the chance of those bad rolls. Keep your distance as long as possible, because once they engage, bye-bye ZetaC.

Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80 points) - Concan has good base stats for only 80 points at 4/4 with 5 life. He flies, so he's immune to Throw, and he can get height on Jotun more easily than non-flying characters.

Crixus (90 points) - Though he can be thrown, his One Shield Defense can help him stay alive long enough to hit Jotun with a heavy attack a few times.

Ne-Gok-Sa (90 points) - This is a bit risky, as it will be hard to do much damage with only 3 attack, but 6 defense and 5 life will keep you alive for a while as you try to turn the tide with a Mind Shackling of the highest costing non-Marvel figure in the game. Just don't get thrown out of the picture.

Marrden Hounds (90 points) - 5 defense should hold off his Wild Swing and they're immune to throw. The Marro Plague may allow an extra wound or two.

Shades of Bleakewoode (100 points) - Immune to throw with a decent defense, but more importantly, three chances to Devour.

Sir Denrick (100 points) - Giant Killer can be a killer alright, and Coward's Reward will keep Jotun from wandering off to murder all your WoA, samurai, etc.

Sentinels of Jandar (110 points) - Shields of Valor should protect you from Wild Swing and they're immune to throw.

Minions of Utgar (110 points) - Very solid defense will probably keep your opponent from even trying Wild Swing, they can't be thrown, and the Minions can put wounds on ANYONE.

Brunak (110 points) - Good stats will keep you in the fight, though having more than 3 life would make this a much better option.

Airborne Elite (110 points) - The flexibilty of The Drop (assuming you hit it) can spread out the AE to avoid that Wild Swing, and getting height is usually a no-brainer. Four attacks of 4 are enough to put a hurtin' on about any figure.

Tor-Kul-Na - 220 points

Honestly, most of the good low-cost counters to Tor-Kul-Na are the same as the counters to Jotun, since both figures have high base stats and powers that affect small/medium figures and can rip through squads. The biggest difference would probably be that Flying figures are automatically immune to Throw but not Trample Stomp, so reconsider the Sentinels, Shades, and Minions in particular.

Braxas - 210 points

Otonashi (10 points) - Another Wild target for the Vydar ninja.

Dumutef Guard (25 points) - Dumutefs hit pretty hard, especially on road. Immune to Acid Breath, they may at least be able to slow her highness down on her way to Acidify your squads or give a couple passing swipes.

Zetacron (60 points) - Immunity to Acid Breath is a plus, but her normal attack is enough to destroy ZetaC, and Flying will help her reach him rather quickly. Her low defense should make her subject to some wounds before that happens.

Marrden Hounds (90 points) - No need to worry about Acid Breath, and boy is that a relief! Tie her up (not literally) and exploit her weak defense while using the Plague at will.

Sir Denrick (100 points) - Coward's Reward and Giant Killer should be good enough to slow down Braxas while putting some wounds on her. You may get a heavy dose of acid for your efforts, however.

Morsbane (100 points) - Want to throw a wrench in your opponent's strategy? Rod of Negation has an effective range of 11, and her highness is so huge, there usually aren't many places to hide from it. No Acid Breath or Flying makes Braxas extremely tame for a 210 point beast, plus the outside shot at an instant kill. This is one of my overall favorite counters.

Charos - 210 points

Ashigaru Yari (40 points) - You'd better have at least three left, or Counter Strike will eat them alive. If you do have three left, Encircle is immune, but would probably slip through Counter Strike with the 6 dice anyway.

Marro Stingers (60 points) - You'll want to keep your distance, but if you do get engaged, Stinger Drain could give you enough attack to get by Counter Strike.

Zombies of Morindan (60 points) - Same as the Ashigaru Yari - you'll need at least three, but Zombie Onslaught is immune to Counter Strike.

4th Massachusetts Line (70 points) - Be set and ready, since you'll need Wait then Fire to get by the 5 defense of Charos.

10th Regiment of Foot (75 points) - Ditto. Also, your Bayonet may give you a slightly better chance at not dying off to Counter Strike.

Crixus (90 points) - His 5 attack should penetrate the Counter Strike, and One Shield Defense should be enough to keep from going down quickly to Charos's 5 attack.

Warden 816 (90 points) - He's got range and a special attack, so he's safe from Counter Strike. Aside from that, you'll need some luck to do some damage before getting mauled.

Agent Carr (100 points) - Range and his Sword of Reckoning should keep you pretty safe from Counter Strike. Ghost Walk to height for an extra die on that sword.

Sir Denrick (100 points) - Giant Killer, like Carr's sword, should keep you from being Countered. With 5 life and 4 defense, well, it could be worse!

Kozuke Samurai (100 points) - This is plenty risky, since 3 defense won't hold up against Charos's 5 attack, but their 5 attack should be safe from Counter Strike.

Kato Katsuro - 200 points

Otonashi (10 points) - Get a Tricky boost and you may get close enough for a swipe.

Venoc Vipers (40 points) - You'll need some good Frenzy rolls and some off-beat paths, but the Venocs might be able to reach Kato.

Fyorlag Spiders (40 points) - They're fast, but maybe not fast enough to get all the way to Kato before getting taken down. He's a great Entangling target, though.

Me-Burq-Sa (50 points) - He's got a very high Move, he's got range, and Paralyzing Stare will work on Kato... in theory.

Marro Drudge (50 points) - Yes, I meant to type Drudge. Tunnelling can be useful for reaching your opponents' figures hiding in the back. I've seen this work with my own two eyes.

Zetacron (60 points) - His long range may be good for some wounds on Kato. Get height whenever possible with ZetaC.

Deadeye Dan (60 points) - He's got silly range, and Kato is vulnerable to Ullar Enhanced SA. You may even try Sharpshooter to really screw up your opponent's entire strategy.

Aubrien Archers (70 points) - Hit Frenzy. Hit it a lot.

Wolves of Badru (80 points) - They've got a decent Move, and don't be shy with Pounce if you do reach Kato.

Shades of Bleakwoode (100 points) - High Move, good defense, Stealth Flying, and a chance to take him from your opponent's army altogether is just what the doctor ordered.

Spartacus - 200 points

Until we hear word of a gladiator squad, I just don't see much use for Spartacus and will use my time to focus on other counters.

Zelrig - 185 points

Dumutef Guard (25 points) - Majestic Fires only affects squads, so you may be able to wrap up Zelrig with some common heroes. Dumutefs can withstand his 4 attack if they're on road.

Guilty McCreech (30 points) - He won't last long, even against Majestic Fires, but he can attack at least twice and may be good for a wound or two.

Theracus (40 points) - Use Theracus to get to Zelrig quickly, before he can wreak havoc on your start zones. Don't forget to bring a friend - Sir Denrick seems a popular choice.

Venoc Vipers (40 points) - Swarm, swarm, swarm. Besides, 0-2=0 (well, -2, but you get the point).

Marro Warriors (50 points) - They can spread out easily due to their regeneration ability, so Majestic Fires won't hurt too much.

Tarn Viking Warriors (50 points) - Zelrig is a mover, so you'll need to hit some Berserker Charge rolls just to keep up, but a good lock-down unit against him. Remember to keep them spaced apart.

Izumi Samurai (60 points) - Majestic Fires may not pentrate that defense, which leaves Zelrig to risk Counter Strike.

Zettian Guards (70 points) - Zelrig will have a hard time penetrating their defense any way you look at it, and at 4 defense himself, they could provide a wound or two.

Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80 points) - Similar stats to Zelrig for much less of a cost, plus he can fly.

Ne-Gok-Sa (90 points) - Zelrig may find himself disengaging NGS repeatedly, as he's got much better things to do than sit there all day trying to get through the 6 defense, 5 life while avoiding a Shackle.

Nilfheim - 185 points

Isamu (10 points) - Ice Shard can't be used on him more than once per turn, so Vanish will never be needed more than once in this situation. Dishonorable Attack will put Isamu on the list of counters for all high-cost Jandar figures.

Guilty McCreech (30 points) - Particularly with some attack bonus, i.e. height or glyph, Guilty should be able to put a couple wounds on Nilfheim.

Zetacron (60 points) - ZetaC won't last long against Nilf's attacks, so stay back and use that long range for as long as possible.

Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80 points) - Nothing real special here, just decent stats (4/4 w/ 5 life) may allow you to do a bit of damage.

Crixus (90 points) - The One Shield Defense and a good attack makes Crixus a good counter to a lot of high cost, high stat heroes.

Sujoah - 185 points

Ashigaru Yari (40 points) - Encircle is a great way to tie up Sujoah while punishing him with 6 attack dice.

Venoc Vipers (40 points) - the Venocs are one of the few squads that stand an excellent chance at catching Sujoah before he reaches your heroes!

Marro Drones (50 points) - Get to him before he gets to your heroes and hope for some luck with Swarm rolls.

Roman Legionnaires (50 points) - You may want to leave your Warlord at home, but four of these guys could put some serious hurt on Sujoah, if they can catch him.

Sacred Band (50 points) - see Roman Legionnaires

Tarn Viking Warriors (50 points) - With some good Berserker Charge rolls, you can cut him off on his way to your heroes and use their Viking weapons to wail away.

Izumi Samurai (60 points) - You probably won't even get to try Counter Strike, but you'll occupy time he could be pumping your heroes full of Poison. Move of 6 helps.

Armoc Vipers (65 points) - Though they can't Frenzy like the Venocs, they still have a high Move that may help them catch Sujoah.

Heavy Gruts (70 points) - Leave the Bonders - the four attacks of 3 is superb. A move of 5 isn't good, but it's better than 4.

Knights of Weston (70 points) - Though they're slow, if you happen to reach Sujoah, he ain't goin' nowhere.

10th Regiment of Foot (75 points) - Wait then Fire could keep directing him where you want him until you can tie him up with the not-so-bad-at-melee 10th.

Anubian Wolves (75 points) - A nice Move may help you keep up with the fast insect and some lucky Unleashed Fury rolls could put an end to him and his threatening of devestation quickly.

Shaolin Monks (80 points) - The agile Monks can probably get to Sujoah and can even beat up his Spiders while they pound on him. A nice counter.

MacDirk Warriors (80 points) - Another nice counter, your Champion can come with them since his wounds help them rip Sujoah to shreds.

Marrden Hounds (90 points) - Very fast (usually) and lots of hexes to occupy can keep Sujoah busy. They have a decent defense as well as the Plague with which to work.

Crixus (90 points) - The only hero on Sujoah's list, he's here for a reason. Needing the 20 for the instant kill, Sujoah may as well be Runa, though he can attack, too. Just roll that shield!

Major Q9 - 180 points

Anubian Wolves (75 points) - Their 4 defense might hold up against the Queglix, but more importantly, some good Unleashed Fury rolls can devestate the Major.

Macdirk Warriors (80 points) - I hesitantly put them on the Major's list, since you'll need a Human Champion, preferably Alastair (he's 110 points himself) to really do any damage. If you do, tie Q9 up with A-Mac, Overextending if necessary, and lay the hammer down with the Warriors.

Ne-Gok-Sa (90 points) - This is a better option if Su-Bak-Na is already in your army. His defense can keep him alive against Q9, and a lucky Shackle roll will really swing the game.

You're gonna need to spend some points to take down one of the most feared units in HS. The Minions are my personal favorite, though they don't qualify for this list.

Taelord the Kyrie Warrior - 180 points

Taelord is next on the list of point cost from greatest to least, but he's not really a "heavy hitter". Taelord costs so much because of the Attack Aura. There's not a lot of tricks to killing him, and so we won't focus on him right now.

Sgt. Drake Alexander (SotM) - 170 points

Isamu (10 points) - If you can Vanish around a pistol round or two, you can drop a good shot on Drake with Dishonorable Attack.

Fyorlag Spiders (40 points) - Though it's not impossible, the spiders probably won't put much damage on Drake. They could, however, spend their time wrapping him up and slurping order markers, as he slowly bangs out 13 points at a time.

Sacred Band (50 points) - They won't hold up well against Drake's attacks, but four attacks of 3 will put a hurting on him.

Roman Legionnaires (50 points) - Same issue as the Sacred Band; keep a Warlord or two close by to give yourself an edge.

Izumi Samurai (60 points) - Their good defense gives them a good chance at surviving a Pistol Fire, though you'll need some luck at using Counter Strike against his normal attack. Three attacks of 2 may be good for one wound - you may just want to engage and use markers to bring up rear units.

Knights of Weston (70 points) - They're immune to Pistol Fire, have a solid defense, a good attack, Coward's Reward, and Human Champion Bonding. Drake won't like seeing the Knights accross the map.

Heavy Gruts (70 points) - As with the Sacred Band and Legionnaires, four attacks of 3 is not what Drake likes to see.

Su-Bak-Na - 160 points

Isamu (10 points) - An attack of 7 won't help if Isamu can Vanish, and an attack of 3 is enough to put a wound or two on SBN.

Guilty McCreech (30 points) - Double Attack should put a wound or two on SBN before he can reach you, especially if you can get height. As with most heroes, don't let SBN get close or it's lights out.

Ashigaru Yari (40 points) - Four attacks of two will hurt SBN - One attack of 6 will hurt SBN. Their flexibility makes them a good choice here.

Warriors of Ashra (50 points) - Oh, the Warriors of Ashra. SBN will be mortified to see a group of them approaching him. He's got no range and no special, so whether he rolls 7 skulls or 1 skull it's all the same to them.

Marro Warriors (50 points) - More "Warriors" SBN will dread. Their weak attack is still enough to hurt SBN, and no matter how many times he easily kills one with his huge attack, they'll be right back for more after a turn or two of cloning.

Sacred Band (50 points) - Four attacks is bad for SBN. Four attacks of 3 is very bad.

Roman Legionnaire (50 points) - See Sacred Band.

Zetacron (60 points) - He's got little chance of surviving SBN's attack, but he could knock him right off that dragon with some good rolls, particularly if SBN gets tied up with someone else on the way to ZetaC.

Ashigaru Harquebus (60 points) - Wait Then Fire can really hurt SBN, though their normal attack won't fair so badly either.

Marro Stingers (60 points) - SBN just doesn't have the defense to stand up to the Stingers. Then again, many don't.

Knights of Weston (70 points) - See Sacred Band.

Heavy Gruts (70 points) - See Sacred Band.

4th Massachusetts Line (70 points) -See Ashigaru Harquebus.

10th Regiment of Foot (75 points) - See Ashigaru Harquebus.

Last edited by Soul Shackle; July 8th, 2008 at 07:08 PM. Reason: additions
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Old May 9th, 2008, 05:41 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

You can probably add a line that says just about everything Large to Braxas. Seriously, her relatively low defense makes it fairly easily to give her a beating (even with all her life) with squads like Deathstalkers and Marrden Hounds--plus, they have decent defense to withstand her relatively low attack (as compared with other similar priced units).

These aren't a quarter the points, but they are less than half.

Nice idea for a thread. I look forward to seeing this one grow.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 06:13 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Shackle View Post
Okay, so you wanna get rid of Q9? Draft Jotun and he should be able to clobber the Major in a couple swings before getting Queglixed to death. Then again, Jotun is a great counter to a lot of units. Problem? Yeah, about 225 of them. I'm working on putting together a list of units that are good counters to figures that cost considerably more than they do.

The guidelines are that the counter must cost half as much as the target if unique or one quarter as much if common. They must have a decent chance at putting nice damage on the target (or some sort of instant kill). They must have a decent chance at not being murdered before getting the chance to attack at least twice (with consecutive order markers). They preferably are immune to the target's power(s). I welcome any comments and/or suggestions. I will continue this list as far as it takes me, but for now let's start at the top...

Jotun - 225 points

Dumutef Guard (25 points) - If on a road space, the road troll's defense and attack are both at least 5. Only 1 life is a problem, but at a nice cost, you can probably get off a few hits on Jotun without running the risk of being thrown.

Deadeye Dan (60 points) - I am personally not a fan of this strategy, but if you're feeling lucky, Sharpshooting Jotun from afar is a great feeling.

Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80 points) - Concan has good base stats for only 80 points at 4/4 with 5 life. He flies, so he's immune to Throw, and he can get height on Jotun more easily than non-flying characters.

Crixus (90 points) - Though he can be thrown, his One Shield Defense can help him stay alive long enough to hit Jotun with a heavy attack a few times.

Ne-Gok-Sa (90 points) - This is a bit risky, as it will be hard to do much damage with only 3 attack, but 6 defense and 5 life will keep you alive for a while as you try to turn the tide with a Mind Shackling of the highest costing non-Marvel figure in the game. Just don't get thrown out of the picture.

Sir Denrick (100 points) - Giant Killer can be a killer alright, and Coward's Reward will keep Jotun from wandering off to murder all your WoA, samurai, etc.

Brunak (110 points) - Good stats will keep you in the fight, though having more than 3 life would make this a much better option.

Airborne Elite (110 points) - The flexibilty of The Drop (assuming you hit it) can spread out the AE to avoid that Wild Swing, and getting height is usually a no-brainer. Four attacks of 4 are enough to put a hurtin' on about any figure.


Wait, wait, let me stop laughin...


Ok, I think I have it under con...



He has 8 attack dice. EIGHT, is the reason why he's called the hero killer.

You act like 6 defence is good enough to block 8 attack die. It'd be like using a bullet proof-vest to block a nuclear bomb.


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Old May 9th, 2008, 06:17 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

If you'd have read the guidelines, they specified that the goal was to get a few wounds on the target and be able to attack at least twice.

Thanks for your wonderful contribution to the thread, though.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 07:18 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

This is mostly speculation, but Zetacron will probably completely destroy most heroes (at least enough to get his points back, anyways). He should be mentioned as a counter to pretty much every high priced hero.

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Old May 9th, 2008, 08:30 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

Yup. Zetacron is gonna own large figures with breaths, chomps, and other things that affect anything but soulborgs and large/huge figures.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 09:15 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

Marro Warriors are great against Jotun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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Old May 9th, 2008, 09:34 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

Bloody and Ellfy, thanks for the suggestion, and I think you're right. I also don't see any reason not to go ahead and include ZetaC - I will get on it tomorrow.

Jexik, what makes you say that? I'd love to know, and get the feeling I'll end up adding them to the list with your explaination.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 09:38 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

Whats not to like about Marro Warriors? If your in Water on height, they'll have a 50% chance of spawning they're fallen brethren and they'll have +1 attack and defense. Good enough?
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Old May 9th, 2008, 09:45 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

I agree with the Elfy, Marro Warriors are a very good counter, especially against Jotun. I also want toadd Omnicron Snipers. They could take out almost everyone there, except Braxas.

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Old May 9th, 2008, 09:48 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroscape Elffy View Post
Whats not to like about Marro Warriors? If your in Water on height, they'll have a 50% chance of spawning they're fallen brethren and they'll have +1 attack and defense. Good enough?
Oh I love the Marro Warriors! For 50 points, ya almost can't beat it! Jexik mentioned them specifically against Jotun, though, so I was asking what his thinking was so I could put it in the first post.
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Old May 9th, 2008, 09:52 PM
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Re: Low-cost counters to heavy hitters

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Originally Posted by Soul Shackle View Post
Jexik, what makes you say that? I'd love to know, and get the feeling I'll end up adding them to the list with your explaination.
If the map allows you to spread them out enough, Jotun will kill at most one MW per turn. If you can run away, you can easily clone more back and be back to pester him.

To the original question posed in the thread, why do commons have more of a restriction on points than uniques for this? I think it's weird since commons generally have a higher cost than they would if they were unique, and you seem to be talking about using just one of the commons, which is further putting them out of their element. For example, WoA are a great counter to Krug, but not according to your criteria. We'd also have to find a 45 point common Q9 counter!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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