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Old February 4th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Mythic Mythic is offline
 
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Command and Colors: Ancients

One of the things I like best about HeroScape is the historical units. I have been considering giving a more "robust" wargame a try but I don't want to get too deep too quick.

Does anyone own C&C:Ancients and can give me some impressions/experiences?

One thing that turns me off is the use of blocks instead of minis...however I get the impression I could make my own for the game using 10-15mm minis that are available.

What are other options? Doesn't WarHammer have a historical game?

Thanks for any and all info!

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Old February 4th, 2008, 11:03 AM
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Re: Command and Colors: Ancients

Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeOfSauron
One of the things I like best about HeroScape is the historical units. I have been considering giving a more "robust" wargame a try but I don't want to get too deep too quick.

Does anyone own C&C:Ancients and can give me some impressions/experiences?

One thing that turns me off is the use of blocks instead of minis...however I get the impression I could make my own for the game using 10-15mm minis that are available.

What are other options? Doesn't WarHammer have a historical game?

Thanks for any and all info!
I thought for sure this game already had a thread here, but I couldn't find it. Maybe it was on one of the now defunct sites.

Anyway, C&C:A is a great game. Obviously, it is based on Richard Borg's Command & Colors game systems that is also used in games like Battle Cry, Memoir 44, and Battlelore. Of all of the games so far in this system, I think Ancients feels the most like a traditional war game. While still having a very simple and elegant rule system, the game just feels more "serious" to me, in a good way.

The use of blocks rather than minis is no big deal to me. I grew up on cardboard counters anyway. The only complaint I have heard is that in some lighting (overhead-only lighting I guess) some people have difficulty seeing the stickers on the blocks. That's never been a probelm for me.

Oh yes, the stickers. You will need to take an evening putting the stickers on all of the blocks. Just pop in a good movie or tune into your favorite TV show and you'll be done before you know it. Or, you can pull a Tom Sawyer and convince your friends that putting stickers on wooden blocks is the best thing ever and then simply let them do all the work.

Many people do use historical minis for this game, as well as elaborate 3D maps and terrain. If that's your thing then check out boardgamegeek.com for info on what people are using for the various figs.

If you are interested in the WWII era, expecially squad level operations, I would highly recommend Tide of Iron. It uses minis, is not overly complex (it's not Advanced Squad Leader), but has lots of depth to it. If you want something that plays faster and is a lot of fun I would also recommend Memoir 44. Battlore can also be played from a purely historical (the 100 years war period) perspective.

But the bottom line is, C&C:A is a great game.
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Old February 4th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Dreaded Gazebo Dreaded Gazebo is offline
 
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Re: Command and Colors: Ancients

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Originally Posted by jbbnbsmith
Anyway, C&C:A is a great game. Obviously, it is based on Richard Borg's Command & Colors game systems that is also used in games like Battle Cry, Memoir 44, and Battlelore. Of all of the games so far in this system, I think Ancients feels the most like a traditional war game. While still having a very simple and elegant rule system, the game just feels more "serious" to me, in a good way.
Just wanted to echo these comments. C&C:A is the best of Richard Borg's Command & Colors system games. The leaders and the way they're integrated into the game really makes it work. Not only are the leaders important figures on the board but many of the command cards in the game revolve around them. Moving your lines of troops around on the board "feels" much better than it does in Battlelore.

I'd love to see a reprint of C&C:A with some better components. The blocks work and have a certain cool aesthetic appeal but I'd still rather see a version done up with Battlelore-seque components. That would be awesome.
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Old February 4th, 2008, 04:25 PM
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FWIW, I agree completely.

If there's a downside to C&C:A, it's that it's VERY comprehensive - and if you come to it from one of the really simple Commands & Colors games like Memoir 44, it can be a bit overwhelming at first.

As others have said, C&C:A feels much more like a wargame - and less like a simple boardgame - than any other game in the series so far. Of course, it's *not* a real wargame - to get the full experience, you need to dive into DBM (which hurts, unless you have a patient teacher), or maybe the new miniatures game Fields of Glory (hard to recommend FoG yet - my copy hasn't been printed yet! Though a firend - on the playtest team - speaks VERY highly of it).

Do NOT be put off by the stickers and blocks. Yes, stickering the blocks takes an age (but that's a fraction of the time that it takes to paint a couple of hundred minis). When they are lined up, I much prefer blocks to the self-coloured figures of something like Memoir 44 - and the printed blocks look MUCH better than row after row of boring grey figures from the similar game, Battlelore. In fact, blocks are also easier to store, set up, and move, as well as looking better.

I'm hoping that if Borg ever publishes his Napoleonic version - or tries his hand at other periods for the system - that the chosen publisher goes for blocks over figures.

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Old February 6th, 2008, 08:27 AM
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Re: Command and Colors: Ancients

Like jbbnbsmith I had thought there was an existing thread on this game - o well, glad there's one now

Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeOfSauron
One of the things I like best about HeroScape is the historical units. I have been considering giving a more "robust" wargame a try but I don't want to get too deep too quick.
If by "robust" you mean intricate detail, then C&C:A will scratch that itch, and deeper so if expansions are purchased. If you mean elegant and smooth gameplay that allows one to become immersed in the battle being portrayed, then definitely I would recommend this game.

I slightly prefer BattleLore to C&C:A, but mostly for the former's ability to surprise more consistently (how's that for an oxymoron ) - they both play exceptionally well in my opinion.

I've been playing BL steadily for over a year, and C&C:A steadily for about half that and do not see myself tiring of either, even if no more expansions were to be released (though it will be a nice addition when Heroes is released for BattleLore, so I don't have to hear anymore about how much better C&C:A is for the onboard leaders ).

As to the blocks vs. figures, cosmetic differences like these aren't so important to me (the main reason I got into HeroScape was the constructible battlefields ), I prefer actually playing with the blocks than the mini-mini's, though painted up pretty those mini's do look sharp out there.

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  #6  
Old February 6th, 2008, 08:36 AM
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Thanks everyone for the great info!

Based on your commnents, I can safely say I am going to give it a try....

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  #7  
Old February 6th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Dreaded Gazebo Dreaded Gazebo is offline
 
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Re: Command and Colors: Ancients

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddrew
I've been playing BL steadily for over a year, and C&C:A steadily for about half that and do not see myself tiring of either, even if no more expansions were to be released (though it will be a nice addition when Heroes is released for BattleLore, so I don't have to hear anymore about how much better C&C:A is for the onboard leaders ).
The heroes expansion has potential. Unless it completely replaces the command card deck, though, it's not going to work like leaders in C&C:A. How the leaders work with the command cards is what gives that game its feel, and I don't foresee that changing in Battlelore
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Old February 9th, 2008, 01:28 PM
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Not that you need another reason to get C&C:A, but Crixus fares a little better among the battlefields of ancient rome than up in valhalla With or without Spartacus

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  #9  
Old February 10th, 2008, 01:28 AM
thaddeus p whirl thaddeus p whirl is offline
 
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C&C:A is one of my favorite games of all time. The rules are more complex than Heroscape, but once you've got Heroscape down pat, C&C:A is the logical "next step;" it has more nuances, but there aren't many games between the two in terms of complexity. It's a very user-friendly wargame, in that the rulebook itself won't turn the average non-wargamer away. Everyone who likes Heroscape should at least give this game a try.
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Old February 10th, 2008, 08:03 AM
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While we're on this subject - I too have been recently drawn to C&C ever since Toddrew got me to check it out on Vassal. I've been learning about it as much as possible and 95% convinced I'm going to buy it.

My question is - "is it worth owning (is it different enough) since I already own BattleLore and all of it's expansions?" Anyone own both and play them somewhat equally in amount of play time?

I think from what I've learned so far, I will like BL a little better but I'm sure attracted to some of the differences I've noticed so far in C&C (leaders, evade, etc.)
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Old February 10th, 2008, 10:14 AM
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I think you already know my opinion , but here it is again: Yes.

The main reason for having both is for the different periods represented. The battles really do feel different, straight C&C:A vs Medieval and Medieval Lore BL - with Full Lore BL games being very much different from straight C&C:A games.

Both also have Epic expansions - with C&C:A playing like overlord Memoir '44, and BattleLore playing differently, again, than both, with it's board orientation turning the single board on its side and then abutting them, creating a large squarish area, whereas in C&C:A (and m44, for that matter) lays two boards side by side, creating a very long and narrow battle field. Variations in changes to the card play between both Epic versions also creates a difference between the games.

If one only wanted to commit to one of the games, and did not have a period preference, I would suggest BL over C&C:A, due to the variation that currently exists in the game (Call to Arms being a large part of that) and the variation that the future holds, especially in the Fantasy side of the game, but historical side as well.

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  #12  
Old February 10th, 2008, 12:18 PM
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Thanks toddrew - I knew your opinion as you mentioned but good to hear it again anyway.

I think one of the things I am attracted to C&C for IS the historical side of it. I believe that will keep me interested in it differently enough to pull it out 'in contrast' to BL.

Anyone else?
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