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  #1  
Old January 18th, 2008, 08:38 AM
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ParaGoomba Slayer ParaGoomba Slayer is offline
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Why does everybody hate deathwalkers?

Why? Everybody seems to think 9000 and 8000 ALWAYS die to a one or two skull roll in the first round, which is exagerated.

They all have uses.

7000 even got an F! How? If he rolls for self-destruct, there's a 15% chance of not working, not 50%.

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  #2  
Old January 18th, 2008, 08:57 AM
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Hero Hot Hatch Hero Hot Hatch is offline
 
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Deathwalkers are POS = Possibility of O Shields (not Pieace of S...). I've written about this a few times. Having one live is their main weakness. You can argue that there is POS for anybody and you are right. However, when other heroes have lives each life under the maximum or available is equivalent to 100% probability of rolling one shield. DWs (or Dead Men Walking) do not have that 100% of at least one shield because they only have one live. DWs could roll all 12 dice and still not get 100% probability of at least one shield. They could roll 100 dice and still not get 100% probability of at least one shield.

In HS, as we all now, the advantage is for the attack dice (there are three skulls on each standard Valkyrie die vs. two shields on each standard die.) What this means is that in a 4 attack dice vs. 4 defense dice it is more likely for the attacker to wound or kill than for the defender to block. Having many defense dice is not equivalent to having many attack dice. You need many more defense dice to block attacks. That's why I'm not surprised when an attacker with two attack dice kills a defender with 3 or 4 defense die. It's all about luck and the implicit probabilities.

On another note, what somebody like Hatamoto does for the Samurais/Ashigarus is to equalize the probabilities of defending vs. attacking per die, which helps with counter strike. I'm still not sure that he is worth 130 points, however. One thing with the one defense Yaris under Hatamoto's Aura is to boost their probability of rolling one shield from 33.33% to 50%, which is a 50% increase in probability. The DWs need something like that to make them more attactive. So I will not be surprised if a hero with a similar influence is released in the future.

If you like DWs the advise is try to play them as early as possible in turns 1 preferably and manage their range tactically to help them stay out of danger for as long as possible while they do their job.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 09:02 AM
ZtruK ZtruK is offline
 
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It may not happen as much as people perceive it to happen but the fact that in even can happen is enough not to like them. Each time it does it seers into your memory. Now if they got 1 auto shield vs small/medium then….

Defense “crap out” rolls are the worst thing ever. The other night my teammate lost Jotun really early in just two combat rounds vs Q10. He rolled nada shields each roll…
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  #4  
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:09 AM
shadowfang shadowfang is offline
 
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i think the deathwalkers are ok, because although ive only played deathwalker 9000, i seem to do good with him.as long as he has the zettian guards with him witch i rock at.
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  #5  
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:17 AM
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The reason people don't like DW's is the loss of turns when one of them dies. It's very difficult to put more than one order marker on a DW because one unlucky roll can lose you all of those turns. If you put all 3 Order Markers on Q9 and he whiffs, he's probably still alive and you don't lose any turns. If you put them all on DW9K and an Aubrien Archer with initiative on lower ground rolls 2 skulls and your 10 defense dice only show one shield, you just lost all three of your turns this round AND 140 points of your army.

Now, that being said, how can those facts be turned into a positive - THE X ORDER MARKER. DW8K and 9K are excellent places for the X. It can cause your opponent to pour fire into the DW's, trying to rob you of future activations. If your DW bites it, you don't lose a turn for the X, and if your DW blocks them (which they do, quite often, regardless of how people talk about them), your opponent has in effect just lost HIS turn instead. I love putting the 1,X combo on DW9K and 8K. Then, if you win initiative, you can march them out into the front line and shoot, leaving them open to draw fire.

DW7K is kind of in a different league, because no one is going to shoot at him. He needs a TRUE whiff to die, not just an "I rolled less shields than your skulls" whiff. People dis him on this site because there seem to be far too many stories of Self-Destructing and rolling a 1,2 or 3, and he's Medium instead of Large (meaning Deadeye Dan, Me-Burq-Sa and the Nakitas can kill him with their specials). However, I think he has merit. If you run up to Q9 and deal him 2 wounds, he's just about earned his points, and has probably earned more than his points if that Q9 was protected by Raelin. He is also strong against the AE and the Krav, two of the more potent ranged squads.

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  #6  
Old January 18th, 2008, 09:39 AM
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ParaGoomba Slayer ParaGoomba Slayer is offline
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Originally Posted by killercactus
The reason people don't like DW's is the loss of turns when one of them dies. It's very difficult to put more than one order marker on a DW because one unlucky roll can lose you all of those turns. If you put all 3 Order Markers on Q9 and he whiffs, he's probably still alive and you don't lose any turns. If you put them all on DW9K and an Aubrien Archer with initiative on lower ground rolls 2 skulls and your 10 defense dice only show one shield, you just lost all three of your turns this round AND 140 points of your army.

Now, that being said, how can those facts be turned into a positive - THE X ORDER MARKER. DW8K and 9K are excellent places for the X. It can cause your opponent to pour fire into the DW's, trying to rob you of future activations. If your DW bites it, you don't lose a turn for the X, and if your DW blocks them (which they do, quite often, regardless of how people talk about them), your opponent has in effect just lost HIS turn instead. I love putting the 1,X combo on DW9K and 8K. Then, if you win initiative, you can march them out into the front line and shoot, leaving them open to draw fire.

DW7K is kind of in a different league, because no one is going to shoot at him. He needs a TRUE whiff to die, not just an "I rolled less shields than your skulls" whiff. People dis him on this site because there seem to be far too many stories of Self-Destructing and rolling a 1,2 or 3, and he's Medium instead of Large (meaning Deadeye Dan, Me-Burq-Sa and the Nakitas can kill him with their specials). However, I think he has merit. If you run up to Q9 and deal him 2 wounds, he's just about earned his points, and has probably earned more than his points if that Q9 was protected by Raelin. He is also strong against the AE and the Krav, two of the more potent ranged squads.
Exactly. People have 2 or 3 defense or D20 whiffs, and assume it's going to happen every single game, and they never draft them again. The crucial moment Deathwalker whiff happens signifcantly less than people think.

Yes, It'll whiff eventually, and to prevent against that, you shouldn't put all 3 markers on it, maybe the 1, 2, and X if you think it's going to expire.

Circumcision? HIS body, HIS decision. A person should have the right to their own body. "Sometimes you're right but you're always an asshole." - Anonymous neg rep
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  #7  
Old January 18th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Overlord Hikash Overlord Hikash is offline
 
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I rarely use Deathwalkers, myself. Last time I used them (the 8000, to be exact), he was successful until something chose to attack him. My brothers nine Omicronian Snipers were shooting at assorted other figures of mine and my allies while my deathwalker remained untouched. DW8000 mows down all of his snipers. As soon as Cyprien attacks the Walker, death. They're great... until they get attacked.
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  #8  
Old January 18th, 2008, 10:36 AM
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ParaGoomba Slayer ParaGoomba Slayer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord Hikash
I rarely use Deathwalkers, myself. Last time I used them (the 8000, to be exact), he was successful until something chose to attack him. My brothers nine Omicronian Snipers were shooting at assorted other figures of mine and my allies while my deathwalker remained untouched. DW8000 mows down all of his snipers. As soon as Cyprien attacks the Walker, death. They're great... until they get attacked.
See? Even though it fricken killed 300 points of omnicrons, it STILL gets spat upon!

Circumcision? HIS body, HIS decision. A person should have the right to their own body. "Sometimes you're right but you're always an asshole." - Anonymous neg rep
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  #9  
Old January 18th, 2008, 10:56 AM
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  #10  
Old January 18th, 2008, 11:40 AM
Dumb Dwarf Dumb Dwarf is offline
 
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For the most part, I think the people on these forums favor consistency. While everyone enjoys fun games, I get the impression that most people here either play in tournaments, or would like to play in tournaments. So if you look at the units favored on the board, the ones that can consistently perform (4th Mass, Raelin, Q-9) or favored over the ones that aren't as reliable (Dund, DW's, Runa). This is not to say that those other units cannot be dynamo's in a game where the Dice Gods favor you. You just can't expect those units to work reliably in a clutch moment. Or in the case of the DW's you can't expect them to still be around during that clutch moment.

DD

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  #11  
Old January 18th, 2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumb Dwarf
For the most part, I think the people on these forums favor consistency. While everyone enjoys fun games, I get the impression that most people here either play in tournaments, or would like to play in tournaments. So if you look at the units favored on the board, the ones that can consistently perform (4th Mass, Raelin, Q-9) or favored over the ones that aren't as reliable (Dünd, DW's, Runa). This is not to say that those other units cannot be dynamo's in a game where the Dice Gods favor you. You just can't expect those units to work reliably in a clutch moment. Or in the case of the DW's you can't expect them to still be around during that clutch moment.

DD
Heck, I prefer casual games and I still won't use em'. I can't get past the 1 life. All it takes is 1 skull and you're toast. 140 or 130 points right down the drain. I think this picture sums things up nicely

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Old January 18th, 2008, 02:08 PM
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I haven't used DW9K since I first bought heroscape. After several (And I do indeed mean several, probably 8 or 9) instant deaths from little cheapo squad figures, I've decided not to risk him anymore.

He's got a range that can make him useful, and if he's well protected by terrain, such as unreachable behind water, or lava, it's not such a bad deal... but one life? His name is Glassjaw to me.

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