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  #181  
Old February 26th, 2021, 02:15 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) (Editing)

I don't think I pinged @Scytale for editing on this one?
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  #182  
Old February 26th, 2021, 03:30 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) (Editing)

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Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I don't think I pinged @Scytale for editing on this one?
I know, I'm just busy with C3V Editing/Rules stuff ATM.
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  #183  
Old March 4th, 2021, 07:50 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) (Editing)

Roger! Thank you Scy.
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  #184  
Old August 5th, 2021, 07:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) (Editing)

Katryn was used here, but only got in a sneaky use of her SA to finish the game.


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  #185  
Old October 4th, 2021, 06:58 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Aspect of the Dragon concerns me quite a bit. The Checklist really doesn't handle a power like this, and it's hard to think of all of the powers it may possibly affect.

Quote:
DRAGONHEART BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Squad figures roll 1 less defense die against Dragonheart Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Katryn Vade cannot be affected by her own Dragonheart Blade Special Attack.


ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
You may treat Katryn Vade’s size as huge for any special powers.
General Checklist:

1. Are we recycling a unit name? No

2. Are we recycling a power name? No

3. If we are reusing an existing power, is the wording exactly the same? N/A

4. What happens when the powers are negated (Rod of Negation, Exploit Weakness)? If negated by Rod of Negation, Katryn cannot use Dragonheart Blade and is always treated as Medium. Do any powers continue to have effects after being negated? No Is this clear from the wording?

5. Should the powers affect destructible objects? Dragonheart Blade can be used against a DO, both as the primary target and as adjacent to the primary target, but is not affected by the Defense reduction. Dragonheart Blade can affect figures on the other side of a Fortress Door if the Door is attacked. Aspect of the Dragon can affect DO special powers that are size-dependent.

6. Do any of the powers unintentionally synergize with other players' units? No

7. Do the powers allow turn stacking? No

8. Are any of the powers conditional on a future event? No Is that future event inevitable or avoidable?

9. Does it have a d20 power? No If is a small, medium, or large Unique Hero, how does it interact with Mystic Sacrifice? If it is Tricky, how does it interact with Queen of Thieves? If it is Undead, how does it interact with Curse of the Mummy?

10. Do the powers create out-of-turn attacks? No

11. Are any powers conditional on the source of damage? No

12. Are any powers expected to work after all figures have been destroyed? No If so, is that clearly worded? How does it interact with revivals, via Glyph of Sturla or otherwise?

13. Do any powers that decrease attack or defense dice introduce a new minimum value (other than zero)? No

14. Do any powers change a Range value from 3 or less to 4 or greater or vice versa? No

15. Do any powers act unexpectedly in multiplayer games? No

16. Do any powers place other figures on this card? No If so, how does it interact with other place-on-card powers (Animated Materiel, Cling, Dwarven Gunners, Warriors Armor Spirit, Warriors Attack Spirit, Warrior's Swiftness Spirit, Necromancy)?

17. Does a power trigger off of an Order Marker being revealed on another Army Card? No If so, is the power expected to trigger if all figures associated with that Army Card have been destroyed?

18. Is it clear which powers are mandatory and which are optional? Dragonheart Blade is optional as a special attack. Aspect of the Dragon is clearly optional.

19. How do the powers interact with the Marro Hive? Dragonheart Blade can affect all figures adjacent to a Marro Hive if the Hive is attacked, even if they are 5 spaces away.

20. If the unit is a Soulborg squad who follows Jandar, how do the powers interact with Directed Fire? N/A

21. If the unit is a Common Orc squad, how does it interact with Incantation of Boiling Blood? N/A

22. Does any power's name or wording unintentionally prohibit the power's reusability? Aspect of the Dragon is potentially reusable, but the thematic name is necessary here.

23. Does the text fit reasonably well on a card? Use this tool to check: https://www.heroscapers.com/xorlof/x2cc. Yes


Capitalization Checklist:

Named Special Power
Squad
size
attack die/dice
defense die/dice


Style Checklist:

1. Species is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads, except Human and Soulborg are always singular. Icarian is singular.

2. Class is always singular for Heroes and plural for Squads. Champion is singular.

3. For Heroes with a name like {name} the {optional adjective} {noun}, use the full name for the first instance in each power description, and only the first {name} thereafter. N/A

4. Single-space, not single-spaced; double-space, not double-spaced. N/A

5. Always add 's' after an apostrophe for a singular possessive, even if the possessor ends in 's' or 'z'. "Vade's" is correct.

6. Special attacks should have a newline between the Range/Attack line and the description. It does.


Unique Card Checklist:

1. How does it interact with Enslave/Moon Frenzy? Nothing special.

2. How does it interact with Mind Shackle/Soul Devour? Nothing special.


Special Attack Checklist:

1. If the unit is a squad, can some of the squad members use the special attack while others attack normally? N/A Is it clear?

2. Is it dependent on the type of space the target(s) is on? No If so, does it work clearly with double-spaced figures and destructible objects?

3. Does it require targeting? Yes If so, how does it interact with Concealment, Tribal Protection, and Combat Challenge? Zogross can be affected by Dragonheart Blade as long as he is not the primary target. Other figures can be affected by Dragonheart Blade as long as Tandros is the primary target.

4. How does it interact with Hard Targets? Nothing special.

5. How does it interact with Aura of Despair? The defense reductions from Aura of Despair and Dragonheart Blade stack.

6. How does it interact with Vanish/Spider-Sense X/Spidey-Sense X/Flutter/Exosuit X? After being affected by Dragonheart Blade, a figure cannot be affected by it again in the same attack, even if it moves to another space adjacent to the primary target. If the primary target moves due to these abilities, the figures that were adjacent to it before it moves are still all affected, and any new figures it moves adjacent to are not.

7. How does it interact with Ring of Protection? Nothing special.

8. How does it interact with Shatter Point? Nothing special.

9. How does it interact with One Shield Defense? Nothing special.

10. How does it interact with Iron Resolve/Iron Tough/Warforged Resolve/Aegis of the Crimson Sigil? Nothing special.

11. How does it interact with Shield(s) of Valor? Nothing special.

12. How does it interact with Stealth Dodge/Nature's Protection? Nothing special.

13. How does it interact with Gift of the Empress Aura? Killing Kiova with the attack first can prevent the use of Gift of the Empress Aura for other figures in the same attack.

14. How does it interact with EMP Response? N/A

15. How does it interact with Stealth Armor/Sacred Band Defy Death/etc? Killing Parmenio with the attack first can prevent the use of Sacred Band Defy Death for other figures in the same attack.

16. How does it interact with Temporal Jump?After being affected by Dragonheart Blade, Rygarn cannot be affected by it again in the same attack, even if he moves to another space adjacent to the primary target. If Rygarn is the primary target and he moves due to Temporal Jump, the figures that were adjacent to him before he moved are still all affected, and any new figures he moves adjacent to are not.

17. How does it interact with Cell Divide? The newly-placed Divider is not also affected by Dragonheart Blade.

18. How does it interact with Redundant Systems? Nothing special.

19. How does it interact with Purple Heart/Honor Among Thieves?Killing a figure with these powers with the attack first can prevent their use for other figures in the same attack.

20. How does it interact with Teleport Reinforcements? The newly-placed Marro is not also affected by Dragonheart Blade.

21. How does it interact with Eternal War? The newly-placed Ebon Armor is not also affected by Dragonheart Blade.

22. How does it interact with Wounded Rage? Wounded Rage could kill Katryn or another figure not-yet affected by Dragonheart Blade. If it kills Katryn, the attack still finishes affecting all figures adjacent to the primary target. If it kills another figure that is not yet affected by Dragonheart Blade, the figure would not be considered to have been killed by Katryn.
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  #186  
Old October 10th, 2021, 02:06 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Thanks for running this through the checklist @Scytale ! I recognize that Aspect of the Dragon is playing in some dangerous territory; do you think it's a step too far? And is there a different wording that you think would leave less room for potentially problematic interactions, or is the idea fundamentally a non-starter? I'd be fine with limiting it in some way (perhaps only triggering when chosen as the target of a special ability?). One thing that gives me some hope is that this isn't completely new ground, as Climb also temporarily changes the left-box stats, albeit in a much more limited way.
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  #187  
Old October 10th, 2021, 11:09 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Don't know if it's been suggested already and just spitballing ideas, but would it help fix it if it worked as a toggle?

Quote:
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
When revealing a numbered Order Marker on Katryn Vade's Army Card, you may also reveal an "X" Order Marker that is on Katryn Vade's Army Card to activate Aspect Of The Dragon for the duration of the round. While Aspect Of The Dragon is active, Katryn Vade's size is considered Huge.
Alternatively what about a marker that can be placed or removed at the start of each round to make her Huge. Something like:

Quote:
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
At the start of each round, before placing Order Markers, you may place or remove the Aspect Marker on Katryn Vade's Army Card. Whilst the Aspect Marker is on this Army Card, Katryn Vade's size is considered Huge.
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  #188  
Old October 12th, 2021, 02:29 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Thanks for running this through the checklist @Scytale ! I recognize that Aspect of the Dragon is playing in some dangerous territory; do you think it's a step too far? And is there a different wording that you think would leave less room for potentially problematic interactions, or is the idea fundamentally a non-starter? I'd be fine with limiting it in some way (perhaps only triggering when chosen as the target of a special ability?). One thing that gives me some hope is that this isn't completely new ground, as Climb also temporarily changes the left-box stats, albeit in a much more limited way.
Frankly, I hate it. It feels all sorts of problematic and raises questions about when the other needs to decide the size (if, for example, a special attack does a movement followed by an attack that could only target Mediums, could Katryn's owner wait until after the movement to declare Huge?). It's the sort of low-value, high-trouble power I wouldn't allow in VC (not without a fight, at least).

But I don't hold this project to the same standard as VC, and I can't think of anything specifically wrong with it right now.
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  #189  
Old October 14th, 2021, 03:07 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

PTI,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Frankly, I hate it. It feels all sorts of problematic and raises questions about when the other needs to decide the size (if, for example, a special attack does a movement followed by an attack that could only target Mediums, could Katryn's owner wait until after the movement to declare Huge?). It's the sort of low-value, high-trouble power I wouldn't allow in VC (not without a fight, at least).

But I don't hold this project to the same standard as VC, and I can't think of anything specifically wrong with it right now.
I think that it's best that we hold this to the same standard as VC, given that the Master Set is intended to be a suitable introduction to either classic or VC designs to help expand the community. I appreciate you specifying that you wouldn't let this fly in a VC design.

Is the issue mostly one of timing, or is it inherent in the idea of conditionally changing size? There's a few other examples of changing leftbox stats like the Werewolf Lord or Parmenio, but those generally have much narrower windows. If that's the case, then perhaps some extra limitations could help? Some kind of way to emphasize that she can't switch sizes in the middle of powers, only between them. Taking a rough stab at it:

Quote:
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
When Katryn Vade is chosen for a special power on an opponent's Army Card, you may treat her size as huge for that power.
Of course, this could lead to other weirdness, such as when she triggers Engagement Strike/Ice Spikes or other special powers that might have weird interactions. It's a very broad net of interactions for sure.

Skinderella also pointed out some other ways to pin down the timing in a more precedented way. Each has some downsides IMO (either making the protection of the power expire each round or adding additional complication via markers), but if they help clarify things, then that would be great.
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  #190  
Old October 14th, 2021, 03:23 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Is the issue mostly one of timing, or is it inherent in the idea of conditionally changing size?
Changing the size value isn't the problem, it's the ability to change it anytime. The Heroscape ruleset only barely handles triggered effects; it isn't robust enough to handle a "whenever you feel like it" power.
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  #191  
Old October 14th, 2021, 03:36 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Thanks for clearing that up. Do any of the rough drafts clear that ambiguity up, or do they still leave too much "Eh, just do it whenever" to the power?

Another rough idea for if the others don't work:
Quote:
ASPECT OF THE DRAGON
When an opponent reveals a numbered Order Marker, you may activate Aspect of the Dragon until the next time that you reveal an Order Marker. While Aspect of the Dragon is active, Katryn Vade has a size of Huge instead of what is listed on this Army Card.
This avoids dealing with individual special powers altogether, and it effectively just turns the power into "Katryn is Medium on my turns and Huge on other players' turns." That said, there is a slight memory mechanic introduced if there are figures who penalize huge units like Sir Denrick or Kolbjorn in play, and there's the potential to get weird if any new out-of-turn effects are introduced that don't rely on OMs (like taking an extra turn before OM1 if you win initiative). I don't think that the latter issue is likely, but it's worth noting.

This route does also lose out on making Katryn immune to defensive powers on your turn like Braced Spear, but that might have to be a loss that we accept if there isn't another clean way to limit the trigger and timing windows.
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  #192  
Old October 14th, 2021, 04:49 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Katryn Vade (Nahiri, Fuy in Stone) - Editing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
This route does also lose out on making Katryn immune to defensive powers on your turn like Braced Spear, but that might have to be a loss that we accept if there isn't another clean way to limit the trigger and timing windows.
The versions that have some specified point of change, like revealing an order marker, as well as an indicator are entirely viable. But they're probably crap as powers. The value of the power as-is is that she can use it defensively if and when it is needed. There may be some benefits to being Huge on one's turn, but not a lot. The value add here is being whatever is most beneficial at any point in time.
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