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  #7381  
Old August 13th, 2021, 01:18 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
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Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
@vegietarian18 Honestly I had forgotten to consider them with Deathchasers, even though I play DC occasionally. MBS and Nerak pop in my head first as units to take with DCs at the lower end costs, however Feral Swogs give DCs access to a SA so it should be something considered.
I don't see how the wild swog would be busted with DC's and not with arrows or spiders so if your submission stands I vote to review.
Yeah, I'm going to keep the submission as it stands for now. But thanks for checking.

Edit: I just saw Veggies down vote but Ill still leave the submission up for now.
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  #7382  
Old August 13th, 2021, 01:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Another easy and thematic way to limit the dc synergy would be to make beast training also change the swogs personality if there is an orc in your army.
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  #7383  
Old August 13th, 2021, 01:45 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
If Deathchasers weren't at all considered then to review Feral Swog for now. Unintentional synergy, especially bonding, is very hard for the SoV to test. I don't think he would be a problem for Deathchasers, since as you mention they already have MBS and Nerak as very solid options at the exact same price point, but he casts a very wide synergy web at the moment and I'd like to see a little more time spent reigning that in, or testing the various interactions if you want to keep the Chaser synergy. I played Hybrid Arrows/Deathchasers as my army for the Online Con Championship so that's why I personally have concern, these hybrid builds do need to be tested. I hope to see a renomination soon, but I think it needs a little more time in the oven.
Quoting because I have essentially the same thought process. I'd like to see more consideration given to this synergy.
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Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Another easy and thematic way to limit the dc synergy would be to make beast training also change the swogs personality if there is an orc in your army.
I would downvote that for being just too overdesigned. If you want to nix the synergy just change the personality. Orcs are wild, doesn't mean Swogs need to be when they don't have a rider.

To be clear, I don't really hate the possibility of the triple bonding here, especially since each army would play so differently. I'm usually against this kind of "everyone gets to bond" design, but here it feels like you'd actually get different and fun gameplay depending on what you're using.

My other big count against the design is being an uncommon when the swog rider is common. Yes, I've seen the picture and that this mini is a little bigger than the swog rider's swog, but it's really not much bigger at all (more dynamic, for sure) and you're trying to say that a slight increase in muscle mass discounts the full orc for the swog rider. It's a discrepancy that I don't personally like.

to review the Feral Swog. I hope to see it come back, though.

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  #7384  
Old August 13th, 2021, 02:13 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The design inspiration was based more on Nerak than Swog Rider. The intent was for the figure to have some staying power. A Swog Rider can just pop easily and that's not something I was wanting to happen with the Feral Swog. If that means it has to be turned into a Unique Hero than that can be done but not preferred. If the other judges feel the same way about the Feral Swog, then I'll revisit it. Turning it into a Common Hero defeats the purpose I had for it. And of course during that time I would look into the DC bonding.
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  #7385  
Old August 13th, 2021, 02:25 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Is there an argument to be made that the other figures (swog rider) is literally THE Orc sitting on top of it? And is not representative of the beast it rides, except for the movement stat.

We do have cavalry units, squad figures with 1 life, but if we had a Horse or other mounted unit I would expect it to have more life. Difference of an independent creature vs a mount.

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  #7386  
Old August 13th, 2021, 02:31 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Xu Shn has been withdrawn by the designer and has been removed from the process.

It is disappointing that the Feral Swog hasn't been tested alongside the Death Chasers, but I don't expect submitters to have thought of and tested every synergy. (Though this one was fairly obvious and important.) Nothing about that synergy raises any red flags, so I'm fine testing it myself (which I would do anyways).

Additionally, being Uncommon doesn't concern me. It seems the non-domesticated ones are bigger (different subspecies perhaps?) and sure, they can be tougher.

to review the Feral Swog
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  #7387  
Old August 13th, 2021, 02:48 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

to review the Feral Swog while Death Chaser synergy has not been considered. Bonding with a good squad is not an insignificant synergy, especially when it opens up hybrid armies, and I would prefer for that sort of a synergy to be tested first.

More generally for the design itself, I think that the theme of an untrained Swog Rider is fun and there's a lot of potential there. I don't see much appeal in limiting the concept to just having multiple bonding squads, though, and the unit very much feels like it exists only to bond right now.

Beast Training in particular makes the unit feel like it was made primarily for synergy's sake rather than to carve its own space into the canon (for what it's worth, this is probably the closest that I've come to liking a power like this for VC thanks to the story that it tells, but it isn't enough to carry the design in my eyes). Units designed primarily for synergy can be fine in certain instances, but given how many Beasts we already have, I think that new additions need to justify their own unique identity and purpose a bit more. The need for an additional power to facilitate this multiple bonding also feels less elegant to me than other units like Pel.

The spider synergy is more significant in my eyes, since the Feral Swogs add a new niche there by virtue of their cost. Focusing on either of the two intended synergy webs would give room to produce a much more interesting design, and the theme of an untrained Swog Rider can be conveyed in plenty of other ways than conditionally bonding with Orcs.
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  #7388  
Old August 13th, 2021, 02:52 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Scy, that was precisely the theme point that MS and I developed together. Wilder and bigger. A different subspecies just like there are different kinds of bears and different kinds of horses.

It’s worth noting, designers, that the theme expressed by Megasilver was so carefully connected to the card that another person - here, Scytale - could see the details of the story without needing it to be explained to him.

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  #7389  
Old August 13th, 2021, 03:04 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Not everyone has Scytale level perception.
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  #7390  
Old August 13th, 2021, 04:39 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
It’s worth noting, designers, that the theme expressed by Megasilver was so carefully connected to the card that another person - here, Scytale - could see the details of the story without needing it to be explained to him.
Yeah I had the theme down first when making this. You helped me change when the Swog went Feral (From Vahalla to Grut, great idea). And during testing I went from a Pounce-like special power to a defense-reducing SA.

How I forgot to test it with the DC is beyond me. But I'll find time to test it this/next week and report back. So I'll keep the submission open for now for the other judges and after the testing the judges that downvote may change their mind. If that's allowed.
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  #7391  
Old August 13th, 2021, 07:01 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
What sorts of units will pass SoV? First and foremost, the best of the best. I don't know how many hundreds of customs have been posted on this site, but we have passed less than three dozen of them. (Obviously, not all have been submitted, so who knows how many other worthy ones exist.) A truly exceptional custom will shine and will have a great chance of passing, even if it's pushing boundaries.
I just want to cherry-pick this quote from Scytale's excellent post. As a former SoV judge and fan of the VC product, I would love it if most SoV submissions were customs that shone out amongst the larger customs community, rather than being designs that were tailor-made for passing SoV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
If you are considering submitting units here, I highly recommend posting first in your own customs thread.
I also want to second this advice from Scytale for @Dragonfly2099 and any other designers that may be reading.


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I *almost* wish we had a rule that designers could not nominate their own designs. I would much rather see submissions where someone played someone else's design and liked it so much that they wanted it to be part of the canon. The SoV started as a way to vet and approve customs that were already known and loved by the community, but now it seems to operate (through no fault of its own) as a kind of personal design-approval committee.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #7392  
Old August 13th, 2021, 07:35 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I actually think it is the availablity piece that keeps non designers from submitting. In my custom tread I have a shout-out to more than a few desigs I enjoy, but they have old figures that are rare, out of print or simply impossible to find.

My only custom submission was the beakface rogue and it had a round about journey. I would not call it my best work, but it was one of the more cohesive designs. I have customs I like alot more but the availability issue keeps me from submitting.


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