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  #13  
Old September 9th, 2021, 08:03 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

haha, yes. I actually like the Roman Archers a lot...buuuut yes, when other units are getting cheaper at the same time...they never really to the point where they're better off than the other cheaper squads.

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  #14  
Old October 9th, 2021, 08:21 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Results from a small 3-person tournament (4 total games) I was part of today.

Format: Each player brings 750 - 800 points worth of units. Each game, the players pool their figures and draft using a 1-2-2-2-2 draft order. Each player's drafted army has a max of 500 points and 24 hexes. VC-inclusive, using Delta points (August 2021 edition).

Players:
Chris (myself) : Raelin [RotV], Sonlen, Deltacron, Harquebus x2, Yari x2, Rats x2, Tagawa Samurai Archers x2, Marcu
@Cleon; : Brontos, Knights of Weston x2, Sir Denrick, Thorgrim, Arkmer, Nakita Agents, Warriors of Ashra x1, Deltacron, Sahuagin Raider
@Itsbuzzi; : Ornak, Moltenclaw, Mimring, Krug, Greenscales x2, Arrow Gruts x2, Otonashi

Game 1: Chris v. Itsbuzzi (Chris wins diceoff & chooses to pick 2nd)
Draft:
Itsbuzzi - Krug
Chris - Mimring & Raelin
Itsbuzzi - Moltenclaw & Ornak
Chris - Arrow Gruts x2
Itsbuzzi - Rats x1, Marcu
Chris - Harquebus x2, Otonashi
Game Result:
Chris won. Mimring kited Itsbuzzi's army successfully in the early and mid-game (killing rats & marcu and putting wounds on Krug & Molty) while the AGs died blocking various things. In the late game, Mimring retreated back to Chris' SZ and the Harquebus took over, quickly dropping both a half-life Krug & a half-life Moltenclaw. Ornak charged late-game but had no chance into 6 Raelin-backed Harqs on height.

Game 2: Itsbuzzi v. Cleon (Itsbuzzi wins diceoff & chooses to pick 2nd)
Draft:
Cleon: Mimring
Itsbuzzi: Krug, Moltenclaw
Cleon: Arrow Gruts x2
Itsbuzzi: Greenscales x2
Cleon: Knights of Weston x2
Itsbuzzi: Ashra
Cleon: Denrick
Game Result:
Cleon won. Early to mid game involved the Knights engaging Moltenclaw and the GWs while Molty tried to avoid Denrick. The knights killed the GWs before Molty could kill a critical mass of Knights, and the Knights were finally able to surround Molty where they and Denrick quickly finished him. Krug then engaged the Knights, but Cleon killed Krug across 2 rounds of knight attacks (including 2 Denrick attacks from height).

Game 3: Chris v. Cleon (Cleon wins diceoff & chooses to pick 1st)
Draft:
Cleon: Raelin
Chris: Rats x1, Nakita
Cleon: Harq x2
Chris: Knights x2
Cleon: Tagawa Samurai Archers x2
Chris: Deltacron, Thorgrim
Cleon: Arkmer, Ashra x1, Marcu, Raider
Game Result:
Chris won. The Nakita agents went absolutely nuts, hitting 4/6 smoke powders and refusing to die until the very end of the game. Nakitas alone killed literally every figure in Cleon's army. Early game, I used the rats to grab & hold the movement glyph for the whole game. I then spent 2 OMs to develop knights onto height and engage some forward TSAs. The Nakitas then moved up, spending most of their time adjacent to Thorgrim while exchanging shots with the Harqs (some were tied down by a few rats at this point) and TSAs. Nakitas just refused to die at this point, winning the ranged battle and killing all the Harqs, TSAs, & Raelin. Arkmer in the late game killed 2 Nakitas, but the game was over by then.

Game 4: Chris v. Itsbuzzi (Itsbuzzi wins diceoff and chooses to pick 1st)
Draft:
Itsbuzzi: Mimring
Chris: Raelin, Moltenclaw
Itsbuzzi: Greenscale Warriors x1, Arrow Gruts x1
Chris: Deltacron, Harquebus x1
Itsbuzzi: Rats x2
Chris: Harquebus x1, Otonashi
Itsbuzzi: GWs x1, AGs x1
Game Result:
Chris won. Early game Chris developed Raelin and sent the Harqs to shoot at Mimring until the Harqs were mostly killed / tied down by various screen units (mostly rats & AGs). Harqs did 3 total wounds to Mimring. Chris then brought up Moltenclaw to engage the screen units. Itsbuzzi did a good job of denying multiple attacks to Molty for a while and kept Mimring safely far away pinging from 8 spaces, but Mimring just couldn't get enough offense mostly shooting up 4 v 6 into Molty. Over 2 rounds, Molty took 2 wounds while killing the rat + AG screen (the GWs were still in the SZ). Once the screen was dead, Molty moved forward and killed Mimring in the first direct attack. The GWs charged late but had basically no chance.

Final thoughts:
- Traditionally strong stand-alone units (Raelin, Rats, Dragons) stood out as still strong (both prioritized in drafting and in-game) despite their point increases. I think this was partially due to their ability to work with almost any other piece which makes them stronger in a draft-format than a double-blind where you could, say, bring more of a common squad instead of including Raelin.
- Nakitas being cheaper definitely encouraged me to base my game with Cleon around them; that and they seemed like the best chance to duel a Raelin-Harq pod after I lost 1st pick to Cleon. When smoke power is hitting at 66% frequency Nakitas can carry a game (and did).
- I'm not sold that Moltenclaw is 30 points better than Mimring. Today everyone was favoring Mimring (better matchups into some of the units here b/c longer range + cheaper points). I think the gap between these 2 dragons could use some more discussion and I'm curious of any thoughts anyone has on them.
- Dragons are good into low-defense figures
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  #15  
Old October 10th, 2021, 12:15 AM
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Oregon

Here's the Oregon results.



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  #16  
Old December 5th, 2021, 10:44 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

As promised, we are now rolling out our 4 month update to Delta pricing. There are a whopping 70 updates in prices this time around, so I’ve broken it down into categories to help people understand what’s changing and why. There's also a tab on the spreadsheet that shows all the changes.

Oops
Spoiler Alert!

Part of a project like this is making adjustments, looking at how they play out, and recognizing when you’ve swung a unit too far in the other direction. In the case of these designs, we are moving the price back closer to its original - in some cases all the way back or even in the other direction. Sometimes there’s a specific reason we missed (e.g. we didn’t account for Re-Tak-Shi boosting Drudge, the support figures for Kurrok and Blades got more expensive) and in other cases it was just a miss.

Faction Reapportionments
Spoiler Alert!

In these cases we are shifting around the points allocations between figures that have tight synergy.
  • In the case of Harqs they are too cheap as a standalone unit at 55, but in order to keep the cost of the Kato army at the right level with their price hike, Kato takes a huge price cut.
  • Similarly, the Gladiatrix is a bit too cheap at 30 but Spartacus needs to be cheaper to support the classic steamroller build (which is at a reasonable power level for Delta).
  • We slide a bit of the cost of Rechets directly onto their card from Iskra.
  • Several Elf Wizards take a price cut, but Ulginesh takes the biggest one. Haduc goes up slightly in part because of his ability to boost frenzy builds.
  • Master Lao absorbs a bit of the cost from the rest of the Monks. (Overall the faction becomes cheaper.)

VCheese Tax
Spoiler Alert!

These units are good. See the recent VCheese event to see how. (This isn’t really why all these units went up in price, but it’s not not why.)

We can bump other things up, too
Spoiler Alert!

Only a few here. Mimring and Morgoloth both just merit a bump, while cutters are helped by the less frequent appearance of dragons and majors in the Delta meta.

Red Headed Step-Bonding Heroes
Spoiler Alert!

The relevant squads for most of these designs rose in price, in part due to the presence of really good bonding heroes. Since these are not those heroes, they become cheaper so they can still be viable as budget options with the more expensive squad. (Estivara is not actually a bonding hero, of course, but she has strong spider synergy. Note that the Wyvern and Estivara price cuts do not apply in Delta Classic, where spiders are cheaper.)

Who are you and what have you done with dok???
Spoiler Alert!

As many know, I really dislike Isamu. Isamu absolutely deserves to cost 25 points based on what he does. But raising Isamu that high made us realize something interesting about how tournament Heroscape works. Without underpriced filler units, it’s way more painful to play a build that’s 10-20 points below the max point total. So, as much as I don’t personally like it, it makes sense to intentionally allow Isamu to be a bit above the curve so that there’s still a generically strong filler option available at 20 points.

General Discount bin
Spoiler Alert!

A catch-all category for a bunch of units that are dropping in cost. The reasons vary considerably from figure to figure, but most of these units haven’t seen much action in Delta events. Even with the discounts many had already received, they were overpriced for what they do.

Last edited by dok; December 5th, 2021 at 11:10 PM.
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  #17  
Old December 5th, 2021, 11:22 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Wowzers.....

Love the humorous headers.
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  #18  
Old December 5th, 2021, 11:41 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Thanks for the update! Looking forward to the next Delta event with a few army ideas kicked off by these updates.
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  #19  
Old December 6th, 2021, 12:08 AM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Great update! The only change I really disagree on is Kuthnak's 20 point increase. Kuthnak is definitely a good figure, but the value of Boiling Blood is noticeably diminished in delta thanks to the point increase the common Orc squads all got. A 5 or 10 point buff would have been sufficient imo - 20 points is 1-2 steps too far. Very good changes outside of that though.

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  #20  
Old December 6th, 2021, 09:03 AM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Waves View Post
Great update! The only change I really disagree on is Kuthnak's 20 point increase. Kuthnak is definitely a good figure, but the value of Boiling Blood is noticeably diminished in delta thanks to the point increase the common Orc squads all got. A 5 or 10 point buff would have been sufficient imo - 20 points is 1-2 steps too far. Very good changes outside of that though.
Blade Gruts went down by 5, so with four squads of blades it's an even deal.
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  #21  
Old December 6th, 2021, 11:05 AM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Waves View Post
Great update! The only change I really disagree on is Kuthnak's 20 point increase. Kuthnak is definitely a good figure, but the value of Boiling Blood is noticeably diminished in delta thanks to the point increase the common Orc squads all got. A 5 or 10 point buff would have been sufficient imo - 20 points is 1-2 steps too far. Very good changes outside of that though.
As @S1R_ART0R1US mentioned, this +20 was done in conjunction with the Blades -5, which ends up keeping the Blades + Kuthnak at roughly the same point total (actually -5 net if you run Blades x5) but makes the Blades build with less powerful bonding heroes a bit cheaper.

Getting better balance across different bonding heroes with the same bonding squad was a big goal of ours to try and make all of the bonding options as viable as possible.
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  #22  
Old December 6th, 2021, 01:42 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
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  #23  
Old December 6th, 2021, 02:09 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post
Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
It isn't intended to be compatible, and we aren't taking any changes from CUC into account with any decision making for Delta pricing.

That doesn't mean you can't mix and match as you would want though in your own games; I would caution against taking powers from CUC and combining them with point totals from Delta though, as that would likely cause unbalanced figures.

As you mentioned, some figures aren't super playable in a competitive Delta pricing scene, and that's usually intentional actually (certain figures, like terrain dependent figures or very high variance figures like Deadeye Dan & Sudema, we don't feel are super-conducive to a healthy meta and so those figures tend to still be somewhat over-priced in Delta). And there are other units (like Roman Archers, potentially) where the base powers just don't make for a very good figure. At some point, even as 10 point figures, they just end up wasting space in a start zone.

From Delta's perspective, that's ok. Our goal is mainly to get the ~ 80% of figures that don't hit those corner cases well-priced.
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  #24  
Old December 6th, 2021, 02:42 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Entirely fair! I'll probably be mixing and matching some at my home table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knox View Post
Is this project at all compatible with CUC/CUA? I know I would use their versions of Roman Archers for example no matter what - there's not a point total that makes the archers viable unless their ability is modified
It isn't intended to be compatible, and we aren't taking any changes from CUC into account with any decision making for Delta pricing.

That doesn't mean you can't mix and match as you would want though in your own games; I would caution against taking powers from CUC and combining them with point totals from Delta though, as that would likely cause unbalanced figures.

As you mentioned, some figures aren't super playable in a competitive Delta pricing scene, and that's usually intentional actually (certain figures, like terrain dependent figures or very high variance figures like Deadeye Dan & Sudema, we don't feel are super-conducive to a healthy meta and so those figures tend to still be somewhat over-priced in Delta). And there are other units (like Roman Archers, potentially) where the base powers just don't make for a very good figure. At some point, even as 10 point figures, they just end up wasting space in a start zone.

From Delta's perspective, that's ok. Our goal is mainly to get the ~ 80% of figures that don't hit those corner cases well-priced.
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