The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Ixe]

I've been keeping my eye out on squads that could make Viceron work for another pass at SoV. I wanted to solicit opinions on this idea from the larger community before diving in with testing.

Originally Posted by Ixe

This is the Spirit from Reaper Miniatures:


This is the Banshee from Reaper Miniatures:


And this is the Grave Wraith from Reaper Miniatures:


Each miniature is supplied unpainted in translucent green.

NAME = Souls of the Damned
GENERAL = Utgar
PLANET = Toril
SPECIES = Undead
CLASS = Minions
PERSONALITY = Tricky
SIZE = Medium 5
COMMON SQUAD

LIFE= 1 (3 figures)
MOVE = 7
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 1
DEFENSE = 2
POINTS = 40

POSSESSED FERVOR
If you revealed an order marker on a small or medium unique hero you control this turn, if that hero destroyed a Soul of the Damned you control this turn, you may reveal an X Order Marker on that hero's Army Card. If you do, take an additional turn with that hero at the end of this turn.

INCORPOREAL 3
A Soul of the Damned adds 3 additional defense dice when rolling defense against a normal attack.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for Souls of the Damned's movement, ignore elevations. Souls of the Damned may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When a Soul of the Damned starts to fly, if it is engaged, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

The most pertinent question is on the miniatures themselves. They are unpainted, but I feel that that is passable given that they are spirits which are basically monochrome anyway. Their shade isn't too far off from the likes of Phantom Knights or Shades of Bleakewoode either. Beyond that, I don't love that the Grave Wraith has a sword when the others don't and they have such a low attack. It could work thematically since it's just ghost attacks anyway but it doesn't match up as well as I like.

The design itself is a little flexible in numbers but I feel that the core principles would stand and it's on that I'm looking for opinions. Ultimately I'm shooting for a quick and sturdy screening squad that gives extra turns to your heroes should they kill them. It has the potential to effectively add to move or threat range of any given hero meeting the requirement, but the most beneficial pairing is for those who can net extra attacks out of it, such as Kaemon Awa, Cyprien, and obviously Viceron. The idea with Viceron is to turn his downside of killing your own figures into a benefit and net extra turns. Viceron works well with them in particular since he doesn't surrender attack potential in the process of using them.

Please let me know what you think.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Possessed Fervor reads like gibberish to me. It's supposed to be giving a Hero an extra turn if that hero killed a Soul during their 'ordered' turn right?

Not a fan of the small or medium restriction at all, it's clearly just a mechanical balance clause that's not even pretending to have any thematic justification. Leaving the boost that open seems like a really bad idea anyway since it's doing something so wonky, I'd restrict it to only Utgar/Valkril Heroes (or even better, only whatever-Vice's-personalty-is heroes) to minimize their footprint. Makes more thematic sense for only evil types to be juicing on ghost deaths anyway.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

Possessed Fervor reads like gibberish to me. It's supposed to be giving a Hero an extra turn if that hero killed a Soul during their 'ordered' turn right?

Yep. The language could probably use a tweaking. I normally refer to pre-existing powers when I write something but I didn't do that this time around. Essentially I don't want to chain bonding turns and especially don't want to chain extra turns from killing spirits if I ever drop the X order marker requirement (I'm not sure if I really need it).

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

Not a fan of the small or medium restriction at all, it's clearly just a mechanical balance clause that's not even pretending to have any thematic justification. Leaving the boost that open seems like a really bad idea anyway since it's doing something so wonky, I'd restrict it to only Utgar/Valkril Heroes (or even better, only whatever-Vice's-personalty-is heroes) to minimize their footprint. Makes more thematic sense for only evil types to be juicing on ghost deaths anyway.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the thematic justification. These spirits aren't that big themselves. They may not be able to meaningfully possess something much bigger than them. But otherwise you are right: I'm afraid of Q9 or dragons taking advantage of it.

You probably have a good point about how potentially dangerous the power is. I wanted them to have play a little beyond Viceron but I don't necessarily want the impact to be too big. I like the idea of their ability only really working for other evil characters.

[Scytale]

So the idea is that you want to kill your own unit to get an extra turn? Seems really good for range figures with multiple attacks, but not much for anything else.

[Leaf_It]

So I wanted to know if theres any issues with the following potential wording changes to Maltis Tez's climbing ability

Currently it reads as:

CLIMBING ENDURANCE
Once per turn, after Maltis Tez finishes moving, if he climbed a total of 2 or more terrain levels higher, he may move an additional 3 spaces.

This has the issue, of loosing moves because you get the extra 3 after you end your move. So you can't be partially up a stack of tiles, as if you were on a ladder, and then move the remaining 3 moves up that stack.

I came up with this potential fix:

When moving with Maltis Tez, if the move would end 2 or more terrain levels higher than where he started, you may add 3 to their move.

@Ixe Suggested this:

MOUNTAIN SCALING 4
Maltis Tez may add 4 to their move value. This additional movement may only be used when moving up elevations.

So what are the issues with either of these potential changes, and what other possible ways could I have the move increased before Maltis Tez starts their move?

[Evar-Scarcarver]

For your first version, I might steal some wording from the Kozuke Samurai Charging Assualt. Maybe something like:

CLIMBING ENDURANCE
When moving, Maltis Tez may add 3 to his Move number. Maltis Tez must end his movement at least 2 levels higher in order to use climbing endurance.

I suggest looking at the Granite Guardians "Gain High ground" for another possible direction you could take the ability.

[Scytale]

When moving with Maltis Tez, if the move would end 2 or more terrain levels higher than where he started, you may add 3 to their move.

Ugh, please no. The Kozuke set a terrible precedent with painfully unclear wording dealing with a situation that should be avoided. The problem is that you are making the bonus conditional on an event that may not happen. What if he uses that extra movement to leave engagement, and dies doing so? Then he is unable to end his move higher than where he started (he's not even on the board), so he couldn't have gained the extra movement, but he wouldn't have died if he didn't already use it.

But, as noted, the Kozuke already traveled down this ugly road, so I can't dismiss it outright.

MOUNTAIN SCALING 4
Maltis Tez may add 4 to their move value. This additional movement may only be used when moving up elevations.

That's probably the best solution I've ever heard. It is, however, somewhat odd, and it would be the first time in the game we have conditional movement points--points that can only be spent doing certain movements. Not a bad direction to go, but that sort of leap to the design space normally requires a unit that really needs it.

So I have to ask, is fast climbing really important to this unit's design? Does it really need it to function correctly, and neither Flying nor a higher Move stat would suffice?

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Evar-Scarcarver

For your first version, I might steal some wording from the Kozuke Samurai Charging Assualt. Maybe something like:

I suggest looking at the Granite Guardians "Gain High ground" for another possible direction you could take the ability.

That's a good one too.

Thank you, I will do that.

-----------
EDIT: I got ninja'd

Originally Posted by Scytale

Ugh, please no. The Kozuke set a terrible precedent with painfully unclear wording dealing with a situation that should be avoided. The problem is that you are making the bonus conditional on an event that may not happen. What if he uses that extra movement to leave engagement, and dies doing so? Then he is unable to end his move higher than where he started (he's not even on the board), so he couldn't have gained the extra movement, but he wouldn't have died if he didn't already use it.

But, as noted, the Kozuke already traveled down this ugly road, so I can't dismiss it outright.

Noted.

Originally Posted by Scytale

That's probably the best solution I've ever heard. It is, however, somewhat odd, and it would be the first time in the game we have conditional movement points--points that can only be spent doing certain movements. Not a bad direction to go, but that sort of leap to the design space normally requires a unit that really needs it.

So I have to ask, is fast climbing really important to this unit's design? Does it really need it to function correctly, and neither Flying nor a higher Move stat would suffice?

The short answer is "no". He will probably play just fine without having the ability. Climbing endurance is my final attempt to have my Running Jump ability still present on Maltis Tez, at least in spirit.

I have to ask though, would there ever be a unit that "needed" an ability like this? You could always do it the way I currently have it, by adding moves after the end of the move. Even theme doesn't make it "needed" when it can be done without breaking the mold.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I have to ask though, would there ever be a unit that "needed" an ability like this? You could always do it the way I currently have it, by adding moves after the end of the move. Even theme doesn't make it "needed" when it can be done without breaking the mold.

It's good to stretch the game in different directions. It's not only good for the game but arguably necessary in the long term.

But that doesn't mean it should be stretched in every direction. There are lots of things we could try to do with the game, even simple things such as this, that are just difficult or cumbersome to work into the game rules. The very best designs are unique and exciting. Adding new mechanics is a way to get there, but a dangerous one that is considered with great scrutiny (trust me, things can get intense behind the C3V curtain when the ruleset is pushed). Personally, I am more excited by units that manage to be unique and exciting by using existing mechanics in new and interesting ways.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

It's good to stretch the game in different directions. It's not only good for the game but arguably necessary in the long term.

But that doesn't mean it should be stretched in every direction. There are lots of things we could try to do with the game, even simple things such as this, that are just difficult or cumbersome to work into the game rules. The very best designs are unique and exciting. Adding new mechanics is a way to get there, but a dangerous one that is considered with great scrutiny (trust me, things can get intense behind the C3V curtain when the ruleset is pushed). Personally, I am more excited by units that manage to be unique and exciting by using existing mechanics in new and interesting ways.

Sorry if I came off defensive, I was about to leave for work as I was writing that, and I didn't put a ton of thought into it.

obfuscatedhippo Suggested that I just make Maltis Tez's move 8, and drop Climbing Endurance. I think I might follow this suggestion.

[Lazy Orang]

If you wanted to go back to a 'Running Jump' idea, I might suggest taking some inspiration from C3G's Red Mist:




Acrobatic Leap

Red Hood may use his Acrobatic Leap at any point before or during his normal move. Each time you Leap, you must first subtract 2 from Red Hood's movement. His Leap has a move of 2. When counting spaces for Red Hood's Leap movement, ignore elevations. Red Hood may leap over water without stopping, leap over figures without becoming engaged, and leap over obstacles such as ruins. Red Hood may not leap more than 6 levels up or down in a single leap. If Red Hood is engaged when he starts to leap, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

To get across the 'Running Jump' theme and simplify it a tad, I'd suggest something like this:

Running Jump

Maltis Tez may use his Running Jump once at any point during or after his normal move. Maltis Tez must have moved at least two spaces normally before using Running Jump His Jump has a move of 2. When counting spaces for Maltis Tez's Jump movement, ignore elevations. Maltis Tez may jump over water without stopping, jump over figures without becoming engaged, and jump over obstacles such as ruins. Maltis Tez may not leap more than 6 levels up or down in a single leap. If Maltis Tez is engaged when he starts to leap, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Or you could probably perfectly reasonably simply reuse Acrobatic Leap (though then the Running Jump name wouldn't work so well since there's no running required for it to work and I'd just keep the original name). I think Running Jump could work though.

~Lazy Orang, who seems to have a thing right now of seeing Classic designs, noticing C3G's already done something similar and going 'hey, what about this!'

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

Sorry if I came off defensive, I was about to leave for work as I was writing that, and I didn't put a ton of thought into it.

No problem, it was a good question. It's a common misconception of custom creators that anything can and should be done. A good thing to remember is that instead of trying to force a mechanic into the game, consider other ways it can be handled that fit the game more naturally.