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  #49  
Old March 16th, 2018, 01:31 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I reiderate so many of our sentiments. I think Kinseth has found a great resolve to this design. I'm very excited about the alterations and mechanics he's suggested through his version of Shadow Shift. It's cleaner than your current iteration and still accomplishes a great deal of OM management and skill in timing (at least theoretical theoryscaping that is). I think you should just test his version that he's suggested as seen below. The idea here is that the assassin now becomes a silent stalker rather than the armies core. With Kinseth's iteration, you would still run a heavy Deepwyrm based army with maybe Pelloth and 3 Assassins where you'd still be able to use Assassins to slink around and kill even when you're using OM's on Deepwyrm and Pelloth or others. His version opens some great doors and I really think you aught to explore this.

Quote:
Shadow Shift
After revealing an order marker on, and taking a turn with a Common Drow Squad, or Common Drow Hero, you may choose one of the figures that attacked or moved this turn that is within 6 sight spaces of a Drow Assassin. You may Switch the Drow Assassin with the chosen figure. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take any leaving engagement attacks.
I'm going to need to think on this.
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  #50  
Old March 16th, 2018, 01:52 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I want to ask something. Would those of you interested in the Assassin like to see a form of bonding in her design, or would you prefer she became a standalone unit similar to the Chainfighter?
I prefer the synergy. Doesn't have to be bonding, but that's the way this design has been going since the beginning, so I'm fine with it. Moreso if it's once per turn.

Quote:
Moving the Assassin through shifting without giving the Assassin a turn feels unappealing to me. It forces you to put the assassin into a more forward position, and since she is more powerful and useful in a Drow army than an individual Deepwyrm, she will be targeted and killed more readily than the Deepwyrm. This was fine when she had a form of bonding, because it kept to keep her in check with her threat range, and you needed to put her at the front to take advantage of sneak attack. If you wanted, you could run her out, but you wanted to keep ger alive for her bonding, and close to your army to take advantage of sneak attack. Without that incentive it feels like I'm just throwing a more expensive, but just as squishy of a unit, towards my front line so that it can die just as quickly as any other Deepwyrm, but without the potential of poison weapons or sneak attack to justify it. Assassination 2 makes you want to keep her behind your front lines, and only run her out front when you can get your 2 attacks off with the X order marker. If she otherwise stays up front, her potential feels wasted.
While I don't mind it either way, I would point out that Kinseth's suggestion doesn't require you to shift - if you don't want to move an Assassin up you don't have to. With that, I don't think a player would be shifting their Assassins into the open anyway. They'll plan the move so that they are moving two into position to take board control and the third into a place where an Assassin can hide and then shifting. Once engagements start happening and most of the activated Drow are in the thick of things, Shifting won't be happening until the Drow takes a turn anyway.

That said, I do think the new version you proposed is interesting with the no sight restriction, it makes the design pretty spicy in another way. I don't know how the rest of the voting party would respond, but I like spice. Do I like it better than Kinseth's? Not sure. I do like spice, but I also like that Kinseth's is more conducive to the common side the the Assassin. I'd have to think on it to determine which I like better.

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  #51  
Old March 16th, 2018, 08:34 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

I'm not surprised, but a little disappointed to see another 3/3 figure. 3 defense really is not that much better than 2, but it is so cliché. I understand the desire to make the unit more beefy, but assassins are normally made of paper anyway. I would never really argue over this, but I just see it as an opportunity to make your design more unique and interesting (and maybe even a bit of a dark horse since people will likely underestimate the unit).

Other than that seems like there is lots of discussion going on, look forward to seeing where you end up.


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  #52  
Old March 16th, 2018, 09:59 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

For one, I wouldn't worry about pricing until you get a version to test out.

I think Wriggz has something here with a 3/2 unit, its not like these guys are going to be on the front line slugging it out. And it will help keep costs down.

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  #53  
Old March 18th, 2018, 08:40 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

It would require additional testing and might up the point value, but it could be neat to allow Shadow Shift to work with Arachnids, too. That's my 2 cents.
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  #54  
Old March 24th, 2018, 12:40 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Personally, I think that forcing this unit's interaction on a different army card's turn is doing the unit a disservice. You have to ask yourself, what do you want this unit to be? If the answer is, "something to beef up the Drow," then do something cheerleaderish. If the answer is "make a Drow assassin," then focus on that.

My suggestion would be something along the lines of the Drow Chainfighter, who doesn't rely on others to get his work done. I do like the ideas behind the Drow synergy of the original design, though, and think they could be utilized less forcefully.

Something like this:

Attack: 5
Defense: 2

Shadow Shift
Before or after moving a Drow Assassin normally, you may choose a small or medium Drow figure within 6 clear sight spaces. Swap the two figures. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take leaving engagement attacks.

Hide in Darkness
If a Drow Assassin is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If that Drow Assassin is on a dungeon space, add 3 to your die roll. If it is on a shadow space, add 6 to your die roll. If you roll a 1-15, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 16 or higher, ignore all damage that would have been inflicted by the attack.
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  #55  
Old March 25th, 2018, 01:32 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Personally, I think that forcing this unit's interaction on a different army card's turn is doing the unit a disservice. You have to ask yourself, what do you want this unit to be? If the answer is, "something to beef up the Drow," then do something cheerleaderish. If the answer is "make a Drow assassin," then focus on that.

My suggestion would be something along the lines of the Drow Chainfighter, who doesn't rely on others to get his work done. I do like the ideas behind the Drow synergy of the original design, though, and think they could be utilized less forcefully.

Something like this:

Attack: 5
Defense: 2

Shadow Shift
Before or after moving a Drow Assassin normally, you may choose a small or medium Drow figure within 6 clear sight spaces. Swap the two figures. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take leaving engagement attacks.

Hide in Darkness
If a Drow Assassin is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If that Drow Assassin is on a dungeon space, add 3 to your die roll. If it is on a shadow space, add 6 to your die roll. If you roll a 1-15, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 16 or higher, ignore all damage that would have been inflicted by the attack.
This is very similar to the reworked version that I posted earlier in this thread, except mine still uses the Assassination ability suggested by Kinseth. It didn't get a lot of attention though, because of how popular Kinseth's version is. I'm actually testing out both his, and my own version, to see which one I like more.
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  #56  
Old March 25th, 2018, 02:10 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
This is very similar to the reworked version that I posted earlier in this thread, except mine still uses the Assassination ability suggested by Kinseth. It didn't get a lot of attention though, because of how popular Kinseth's version is. I'm actually testing out both his, and my own version, to see which one I like more.
Both that and Kinseth's versions have the one thing I removed: pseudo-bonding. It's neat and all, but it's the most design-restricting aspect of the whole unit. It prevents any future Drow bonding abilities, still has the large threat range concern (including early glyph-grabbing potential), and opens up a bunch of tricky end-of-turn interactions to consider. The question is, does the design need it? Is the bonus turn really core to the unit's functionality? Shadow Shift and Hide in Darkness already weigh it down with plenty of complexity for a common hero.
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  #57  
Old March 25th, 2018, 02:24 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
This is very similar to the reworked version that I posted earlier in this thread, except mine still uses the Assassination ability suggested by Kinseth. It didn't get a lot of attention though, because of how popular Kinseth's version is. I'm actually testing out both his, and my own version, to see which one I like more.
Both that and Kinseth's versions have the one thing I removed: pseudo-bonding. It's neat and all, but it's the most design-restricting aspect of the whole unit. It prevents any future Drow bonding abilities, still has the large threat range concern (including early glyph-grabbing potential), and opens up a bunch of tricky end-of-turn interactions to consider. The question is, does the design need it? Is the bonus turn really core to the unit's functionality? Shadow Shift and Hide in Darkness already weigh it down with plenty of complexity for a common hero.
By Pseudo-bonding, are you referring to Assassination? My version of Shadow Shift happens on the Assassin's turn, and the Assassin's turn only.
Quote:
Shadow Shift
Before or after moving a Drow Assassin, and before attacking, you may choose a Drow figure that you control within 4 spaces of that Drow Assassin. You may Switch the Drow Assassin with the chosen figure. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take any leaving engagement attacks.
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  #58  
Old March 25th, 2018, 03:19 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Hey, just wanted to let you know. Your discussion on this Assassin custom has prompted me to get my Assassin's creed custom project going again. I've already compiled a bunch of Assassin-esk abilities all together to have another go at it. I really like the triggering of support figures such as assassins with the X marker, and playing them behind the scenes all to suddenly strike out and hit their target. Just want to give you the props you deserve. Also really liked the Assassinate 2 ability that was talked about too. Great stuff.
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  #59  
Old March 25th, 2018, 11:39 AM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
By Pseudo-bonding, are you referring to Assassination? My version of Shadow Shift happens on the Assassin's turn, and the Assassin's turn only.
Yes, the Assassination ability. Swapping figures around doesn't bother me, even on a different card's turn. To me, that's the core design of this unit, and the part that opens up numerous interesting possibilities and works well for different playstyles. Assassination is pseudo-bonding, a bonus turn based on taking another turn. Always powerful, of course, but I don't just see it as a key part of this design. Let some future bonding(ish) unit handle that.
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  #60  
Old March 25th, 2018, 12:40 PM
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Re: Leaf_It's customs. [UPDATED: 2.24.18]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
By Pseudo-bonding, are you referring to Assassination? My version of Shadow Shift happens on the Assassin's turn, and the Assassin's turn only.
Yes, the Assassination ability. Swapping figures around doesn't bother me, even on a different card's turn. To me, that's the core design of this unit, and the part that opens up numerous interesting possibilities and works well for different playstyles. Assassination is pseudo-bonding, a bonus turn based on taking another turn. Always powerful, of course, but I don't just see it as a key part of this design. Let some future bonding(ish) unit handle that.
I disagree, I think the bonus turn + shifting defines the assassin. I’ll write more later.

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