Race for the presidency political discussion thread

[InfinityMax]

I think you missed the point. You are trying to equate religious beliefs with a heightened conscience. I am saying that I do not believe there is any correlation between religion and conscience, and saying there is a correlation is an insult to religious people, suggesting that they only behave because they're a-skeert. And I think that when people say they wouldn't vote for a non-Christian based on the reasoning that religion somehow improves your moral compass, they are using that statement as an excuse to vote for people just because they share a belief system, ignoring political capability in favor of a comfortably similar background.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

You know, this statement does not give much credit to religious people. Are you saying that they only have a conscience because they're scared? Does that not suggest that they are actually worse people than atheists, who act on a simple knowledge of right and wrong without having to be intimidated by long-term consequences?

Obviously, I disagree. I don't think religion gives you any kind of edge when it comes to right and wrong. I think that some of the most heinous, ugly, rotten people in the world have been religious, and most of those actually used their religion to justify some horrible misdeeds. And I'm not talking Spanish Inquisition - this kind of thing happens today.

Conscience is a lot bigger than religion - atheists still know right from wrong, and tend to act on it. I think it is insulting to religious people to say that they're more moral because they're scared of God. Oh, and it's asinine.

As far as Obama's religion, I didn't have any problem with his religion when I thought he was a Muslim, and I find it offensive that anyone would. That's the worst religious bigotry I've ever seen on people I actually know - and believe me, I've seen my share.

Picking on the man because of his name is just taking cheap shots. That's grade-school playground BS.

The most ironic thing about seeing me defend Obama is that I don't actually like him. I hope Edwards pulls a come-from-behind and gets the nod, because I like his politics. I don't like Obama. I think he's a glad-handing fake, almost as bad as Fred Thompson (now THAT dude is a phony). But I don't have any issue with his religion or his name.

Heck, religious people know they will be forgiven for their sins, so why would they be afraid of the afterlife if they did something wrong? Heck, when I was growing up in Chicago Heights, I worked at a restaurant patronized by a lot of church going mobsters. They were religious but didn't have a problem doing their mobster type business.

I grew up Catholic but I don't participate in religion any longer (haven't for quite a long time). I don't consider myself to be religious, but I sure as heck know the difference between right and wrong. To say that someone that is religious is better suited than me to run for public office is quite insulting and dead wrong. A qualified person for office can be of any color, race, sex or religious belief or non-belief. They can even have a non-traditional name and be qualified.

[Browncoat]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

By referring to his entire name you are obviously not an Obama fan, so you don't need to "reserve" anything. I do think it is odd and a little low when I see folks doing this. It's like a right-wing implication that you must have the right name or the right God to be American. His name doesn't bother me. If I'm off the mark on you Browncoat, please correct me.

Okay, I'll correct you.

I have a friend and co-worker named Luke. He's actually the one who introduced me to Heroscape. Luke comes from a large family, and has 3 brothers: Matthew, Mark, and John. Now...what if I tried to tell you that he doesn't come from a Christian family? It would be pretty hard to believe, don't you think?

Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. was born of a Muslim man, which by birthright, makes him a Muslim as well, according their religion. Instead of naming their son "Jeremy" or "Steve", they chose a Muslim name, after his father. This is not the practice of someone who has supposedly renounced his religion, as Obama claims his father had.

The timeline is pretty clear. His parents divorced when Barack was very young, then his mother remarried, and to another Muslim. The new family moved to Indonesia where Obama attended Muslim (and reportedly Catholic) schools. As for what religion was practiced (or not) behind closed doors is speculation. Being born of a Muslim father, raised by another Muslim man, in a Muslim country, and attending Muslim schools leaves little room for second guessing in my book. If looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck...it's a duck.

[Grungebob]

Fortunately there are many of us in this nation that aren't opposed to cultural diversity, and are not as culturally, or religiously bogotted as others. That's the only explanation I can give for Barack's success, if you are anable to understand it and are unwilling to accept his explanation of his own beliefs and religious upbringing..

[ej]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

I think you missed the point. You are trying to equate religious beliefs with a heightened conscience. I am saying that I do not believe there is any correlation between religion and conscience, and saying there is a correlation is an insult to religious people, suggesting that they only behave because they're a-skeert. And I think that when people say they wouldn't vote for a non-Christian based on the reasoning that religion somehow improves your moral compass, they are using that statement as an excuse to vote for people just because they share a belief system, ignoring political capability in favor of a comfortably similar background.

While I wouldn't vote for someone based on their specific religious beliefs, or lack thereof, I most certainly take into account someone's morality, which is why I didn't trust Clinton from the beginning and why I didn't trust Paul Morrison (Kansas AG who was recently caught being... improper). Church-going doesn't win you points with me. Not at all. I know too many church-goers that are only in it for appearances or worse, use religion as an excuse to do great evil.

During the debates I try to get a real sense of where someone's morality lies, and how they view the world and what core values they would use on which to base decisions. Gore lost my vote as soon as he said the phrase "The Right Americans" when answering a question on who should get tax relief. That right there told me that he doesn't view Americans as a land of equals, or as a land of people who SHOULD be treated as equals. That viewpoint is diametrically opposed to my own and proved to me that I didn't want Gore making decisions on my behalf.

So during these debates I'm going to be watching out for those clues about where a candidate's moral compass is pointing. I'm going to be listening for promises that I know can't be realized, but are said anyway to try to make the candidate sound more capable than everyone else. I'm going to be listening to how they sneak in a jab at another candidate's record when answering a direct question. I'm going to be listening for a candidate's mischaracterizations of their opponents. I'm going to be listening for evidence of willingness to do the right thing, even though it might be difficult or unpopular. I'm going to be listening for glimpses into a person's managerial style.

I'm going to be listening for the phrase "I don't know." Why? Because I'd like to see a candidate who wasn't afraid to admit that they didn't have all the answers. That person is going to seek out and appoint the most knowledgable and capable people he can find to do the jobs he cannot and to surround himself with trustworthy people to give him the best advice and best intelligence.

Wait, didn't I say I wasn't going to post in this thread? Crap!

[Fezzikthedoor]

Originally Posted by Browncoat

Okay, I'll correct you.

If looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck...it's a duck.

That type of reasoning tends to make one sound like a quack.

BTW, I don't like any of these jokers but just own up to taking a cheap shot and be done with it. It falls on me, it seems, to inform you that religion--at least in our country--is not inherited, regardless of what some kooks in the middle east, or even the middle of Detroit, say.

[InfinityMax]

I think the entire discussion of Obama's religious should be completely off-topic. His religion is irrelevant, or at least it should be. Is he somehow a worse person because his father gave him a Muslim name? Are his morals compromised because he spent a portion of his youth in a nation whose citizens are predominately Muslim?

Browncoat, allow me to direct a counter-argument to your 'friend named Luke' argument. My brothers and I all share similarities in our names. Those names are:

Matthew David
Joshua Paul
Timothy Michael

Each name has one from the Old Testament, one from the New. I will not try to tell you that my parents were not religious. But I will tell you that I most certainly am not. I can't control the name my parents gave me. I can't control my father's line of work. But just because my dad was a preacher does not mean that I am a Christian. It means I'm a preacher's son, and nothing more.

So in summary:

1) Obama's childhood history does not make him a Muslim, any more than mine makes me a Christian.

2) Even if it did, and even if he was a Muslim, it shouldn't matter one bit. The only reason it does matter is if you are a religious bigot.

Browncoat, you've done some awesome stuff here, and I think you're pretty cool. I just think you're way, way, way off the reservation on this one.

[Jexik]

Since Knapper took Iowa, what do you think of his chances at the Geneva Convention?

I like Obama. I'm actually sitting about a mile from his house as I type this.

[Onacara]

VOTE IMAXBEAR '08

[ej]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Since Knapper took Iowa, what do you think of his chances at the Geneva Convention?

I like Obama. I'm actually sitting about a mile from his house as I type this.

I hate it when people bring morality into politics. It's BS. How someone can get impeached for fooling around but not for starting false wars is beyond me. Last I checked, Hillary is still married to Bill. If she doesn't care, why the hell should we?

And that's why I don't discuss politics.

[Onion Knight]

The religion thread lives!!!!!

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by ej

And that's why I don't discuss politics.

I'll delete mine if you delete your reply.