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  #61  
Old December 6th, 2018, 11:40 AM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Nah TKN/Grubs is a solid army, especially with range-counter (Krav, PKs). It can have a hard time on certain maps but I think most of the time it's fine.
This doesn't change my statement. Really the army you mention isn't about the grubs. It's about TKN.

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  #62  
Old December 6th, 2018, 04:44 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

I beat someone with their own TKN-less Nagrubs in the first round of the Main Event Day 2 2014
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  #63  
Old December 6th, 2018, 07:59 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I beat someone with their own TKN-less Nagrubs in the first round of the Main Event Day 2 2014
?? What am I missing? Doesn’t that prove my point?

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; December 6th, 2018 at 09:04 PM.
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  #64  
Old December 6th, 2018, 09:11 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

I mean, no? You played my okay Arrow Grut army into an your own okay Nagrub army without TKN and the Nagrub army won. My Arrow Grut army wasn't great either, and the Nagrubs had Cyprien and Marro Warriors, but Arrow Gruts are pretty solid too and they had Raelin.

(I don't think it really proves any point, I was just making a joke about having beaten you with an army you were saying was bad)
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  #65  
Old December 6th, 2018, 09:38 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
I mean, no? You played my okay Arrow Grut army into an your own okay Nagrub army without TKN and the Nagrub army won. My Arrow Grut army wasn't great either, and the Nagrubs had Cyprien and Marro Warriors, but Arrow Gruts are pretty solid too and they had Raelin.

(I don't think it really proves any point, I was just making a joke about having beaten you with an army you were saying was bad)
Wait a minute, I played a grub army? I have to go look this up.


Sure enough I did. Not sure what I was thinking....
Anyway looks like you beat me pretty easily according to your battle report.
Must have been the dice, oh wait that’s only 1% of losses...

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Last edited by Matthias Maccabeus; December 6th, 2018 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Man, I’m getting old...
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  #66  
Old December 7th, 2018, 07:55 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

Generally a lot depends off the format, 16hexes limit hurts some squads a lot, even 20 hexes limit is a problem for 4Mass for example.
It's also depends on the map and glyph pool.

In my opinion KMA deserves more 10 than Fen Hydra. Fen Hydra have some downsides and can be tricky to use sometimes whereas KMA are always good as long as you put some OMs on them.

Top 5 is perfect to me, I too think Marro Warriors are better than KMA (close). I would go even further, saying KMA and MW are better than Q9, or if not it's deadly close.
Q9 rely the army to be build around him, where the unique squads you slam them in any army and they can completely turn the dynamic of some machups around (just like Raelin).

Other rapid thoughs while I read the list:

Imo Q10 is not that strong at all Kaemon is better.

Airbone should be tier 9.
Zetacron? Never did good in my games, no multiple targetting, big OMs investment and fragile. No synergy low cost heroes are very difficult to use and he's not exception. Imo Heirloom is much better as allrounder hero (Heirloom should be ter 8 at least by the way) or if you want long range threat you go for Syvarris.
Darrak, is a bit high too but less obvious than Zetacron.
I feel Axegrinders and Deathchasers are at least equals (prob better) as Weston/Gruts in 16 to 20hexs limit.

Mezzos should be higher, tier 8, I was sceptical at first too, because 2 attacks per turn, but after playing with and against them a lot they are very strong, once they get to the high ground you just use exossqueletons and then their attacks are 2 almost guaranteed kills each turn.
When there is a special attackes it's trickier but you just have to kill the spe attacker before he kills every but two of your Mezzos and then this two Mezzos will be unkillable for the endgame. I wouldn't say special attacks hardcounters the Mezzos because you still get to use the exosquelletons anyway.

Capuans is a force to be reckoned with imo, they deserve better.


Last edited by Foudzing; December 7th, 2018 at 08:29 PM.
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  #67  
Old December 7th, 2018, 08:28 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

A Foudzing sighting? Cool!

Looking forward to your VC rankings, Cleon.

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  #68  
Old December 7th, 2018, 08:37 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Personally, I think it's this:

Knights > Heavies > Greenscales > | Axegrinders > Romans > Deathchasers > | Nagrubs > | Arrows > Blades > Sacred Band > Mohicans > | Capuans > MacDirks > | Spiders > | Armocs > Deathknights > Badru | > *Hive > | Groks

The tier breaks are '|'. Within each break is close in power, more debatable which units are better than which.
Depends on hexes limit, sacred Band and Blades are almost unplayable in less than 24hexes limit.
Whereas Capuans, GSW and DeathChasers rise the fewer the hexes avalaible. Dwarves too because they are more suited for a mixed army (= not ALL the OMs on one card) than the other squads are.

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  #69  
Old December 8th, 2018, 12:21 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

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Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Nah TKN/Grubs is a solid army, especially with range-counter (Krav, PKs). It can have a hard time on certain maps but I think most of the time it's fine.
This doesn't change my statement. Really the army you mention isn't about the grubs. It's about TKN.
Nagrubs have Life Bonding, which basically means they're extra lives for TKN running around at 10pt. a pop. TKN with more than 6 health (possibly a ton if you can abuse it right) can be pretty nuts. They themselves are only 2/2s but their pings and 6 move mobility work nicley for the build, the kind of act as lesser rats for it. They rock because they're only 30pt. imo.

I think the TKN/grub build is right between 7 and 8 in power, so I put TKN a high 7 and Nagrubs a low 8; TKN can have trouble on certain maps so I put him lower, I think the Grubs help him a bit on his bad maps and help with situations where he struggles - they're more universal. I remember dok saying he thinks the Nagrubs are what makes the build shine and maybe they should be rated higher than TKN, and I trust his opinion on the TKN/Nagrub build more than anyone's. So...the TKN/Nagrub build's power is like a 7.5 in my opinion, and that's why I decided to rate them that way (TKN a high 7, Nagrubs a low 8 ).

I kind of see what you're saying, the Nagrubs themselves are pretty weak. I suppose that's just a differing style of rating units. I try to rank units more on their effectiveness in their 'best' builds and how much they impact the fight in them. But I guess you can split synergistic combos into a more individualistic outlook.

Still wouldn't ever rate them below a 5 though. But I know how much you love the Spiders.


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  #70  
Old December 8th, 2018, 01:29 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Generally a lot depends off the format, 16hexes limit hurts some squads a lot, even 20 hexes limit is a problem for 4Mass for example.
It's also depends on the map and glyph pool.

In my opinion KMA deserves more 10 than Fen Hydra. Fen Hydra have some downsides and can be tricky to use sometimes whereas KMA are always good as long as you put some OMs on them.

Top 5 is perfect to me, I too think Marro Warriors are better than KMA (close). I would go even further, saying KMA and MW are better than Q9, or if not it's deadly close.
Q9 rely the army to be build around him, where the unique squads you slam them in any army and they can completely turn the dynamic of some machups around (just like Raelin).

Other rapid thoughs while I read the list:

Imo Q10 is not that strong at all Kaemon is better.

Airbone should be tier 9.
Zetacron? Never did good in my games, no multiple targetting, big OMs investment and fragile. No synergy low cost heroes are very difficult to use and he's not exception. Imo Heirloom is much better as allrounder hero (Heirloom should be ter 8 at least by the way) or if you want long range threat you go for Syvarris.
Darrak, is a bit high too but less obvious than Zetacron.
I feel Axegrinders and Deathchasers are at least equals (prob better) as Weston/Gruts in 16 to 20hexs limit.

Mezzos should be higher, tier 8, I was sceptical at first too, because 2 attacks per turn, but after playing with and against them a lot they are very strong, once they get to the high ground you just use exossqueletons and then their attacks are 2 almost guaranteed kills each turn.
When there is a special attackes it's trickier but you just have to kill the spe attacker before he kills every but two of your Mezzos and then this two Mezzos will be unkillable for the endgame. I wouldn't say special attacks hardcounters the Mezzos because you still get to use the exosquelletons anyway.

Capuans is a force to be reckoned with imo, they deserve better.
Glad you agree with my top 5; I too think the best figures in the game are Rats, Raelin, Q9, Isamu, and MW.

The Krav are incredibly good, yes, but the PK's are such a hard counter to them that it's difficult for me to rank them higher (I like them either right below of right above Knights/Heavies/Grimnak). And PK's are by no means rare. They're existence alone changes the Krav, at least to a desgree. I often feel like splashing x1 PK for 70pt. into your army just for dealing with the Krav isn't a bad idea, if your army really needs it (which many do). If the PK's didn't exist, the Krav would be higher, and I could even see a 10 maybe, but that unit alone and how splashable they are keep the Krav in check in my opinion.

The Hydra is up at the top echelon because the more I think about it, it kills more than its points worth in figures so frequently, and sometimes waaay more than its points worth, it's hard for me to ignore that. It's also only 120pt., and doesn't really rely on anything else. Basically always very good. And if it does whiff early, it's only 120pt. of your army (and your opponent is going to designate more than 120pt of their army to it most always). There's also always the option of running more than one of them, too, and those armies are beasts of their own. I think a figure so dominant, as well as quite versatile, deserves to be in with the very top. In short, the more I play the game, the more I see the Hydra kill an unbelievable amount of points and dominate.....and it's only 120.

To me Q9 is very independent. I feel like you can add him to any army out there and he's going to do great for you, simply because he's Q9. I think he's even more versatile than Raelin and rats actually. There are some, though very very rarely, instances where you don't want Raelin or rats in army building; I think Q9 is literally always good. Can't really come up with an army building situation where I wouldn't want him (other than the shame of taking him ). I think Rats and Raelin are stronger in power (very) slightly, but yeah I think he's super independent. You can build your army around him, too, of course.

I remember Spider saying when Q10 first came out (way back in '07 haha) that he felt like he was a mixture of Q9 and Kaemon, but not as good as either. But again that was way back. I think Q10's versatility is huge and he's basically never gonna do you bad. For that I think he's better than Kaemon. But, I think I'm always going to feel like Q9 is a 10 and both Q10 and Kaemon are both 9's, regardless of the order. (I had Kaemon a bit lower originally because i think his spot in the game is kind of in the shadow of the Hydra, being that they're the same points, but that really wasn't a reason to put Kaemon lower than where I have him now, just my brain kind of forgetting about him honestly. He's def oldschool haha).

AE I have at 8...they're very high variance with how much damage they do. If you get the drop early, and win inituative, and get a good position, they're nuts, but that's many things you need to go your way luck wise. There was a game at GenCon I played (i think it was against Junior, maybe?) where he had AE+Minions and the AE never dropped. It's happened at times in my games at home, too. Playing 110pt. under bites, and it does happen at times. I think they need too many rolls/luck to go in their favor to be a 9, but they are very strong. I have them as a high 8.

I have Zetacron pretty high because he's a tool to snipe a strong hero for armies that need an answer to that for only 60pt., and I think that's very useful. Also think he's pretty much always going to do at least 60pt. worth of damage, whatever the matchup is. Maybe it's my biased towards him, he's one of my favorite figs and I do think he's underrated and a great tool. But if a lot of people see him lower, I can bump him down to low-8.

Hierloom's a figure I need more experience with. Ash family loves him. He's good, I could see him higher.

Darrak I always think of a great for 60pt. I always think of him as about there in power in my head. But i could see him lower in the 8's, too.

Matthias thinks highly of the Axegrinders too. I'm thinking of giving them a boost, maybe towards to top of Tier 8.

Yeah Mezzo's are quite good, and continue to impress and change my mind. Much better than my original impression of them. If a lot of people think they're 8, I can bump them to 8.

Gladiators are very very difficult to rate. Completely depends on the point limit you're playing. They're potentially pretty sick, but a lot of bad matchups too, and no points to add something to compensate for, usually. Weighing everything, I think a high 6 represents them well. But again, it's a hard build to rank accurately.


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  #71  
Old December 8th, 2018, 01:42 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

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A Foudzing sighting? Cool!

Looking forward to your VC rankings, Cleon.
Word. I'm almost done with it, it will be up soon. There's so many units to rank, with VC included the game has more than 300 units. For some reason I thought it was more like 250-260, but the VC people have gone hard over the years. Props to them.


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  #72  
Old December 13th, 2018, 07:26 PM
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Re: Cleon's Unit Tier List (Update: 11/26/18)

So there's a few changes that I want to make (i.e. - Frost Giant will go up, Khosumet will go down), but they're pretty minimal and I want to wait for more changes before I jump to tweak some things. I don't want to update this too frequent; more than once per month I think is too often. But there's a few that i've settled in my head that they should change slightly.

How do people feel about Raelin SotM? She's a very unexplored/unseen unit, because Raelin RotV's so much better and basically what you add to your army when you want more defense, in virtually every scenario. But, there are some times I think Raelin SotM is nice. I like her with a swarm of Drones, for example. She's a pretty good unit - giving all figs in a larger range +1 def, and a decent offense of her own if the situation calls for it. I wonder how she would be viewed if Raelin RotV didn't exist.

+2 def is so much better than +1, but I'm starting to think Raelin SotM should be a 6. Not sure. Thoughts?

(Also, I'll be posting my VC list later tonight)


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