Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Tmac2200]

I'd like to nominate another of my customs, this one being much more available:

The figure is #28 Manchester Black from the Heroclix Superman set.
Coolstuffinc has 10 in stock.
Strikezone has a couple.
MiniatureMarket has 4.
PopularCollections has 10.
TrollandToad has 63 in stock.

All I did was paint his shirt chocolate brown. I wanted to create a cocky, self proclaimed "best agent" type character. I hope I'm not nominating too often. I'll probably wait to nominate any of my other designs for alittle while. I've got three I'm working on.

[Scytale]

Availability is fine and the unit is interesting, though I doubt worth 110pts (very little offensive power).

Aside from the typo in Already Here Sir, I do not like having a power like that for an "official" figure. It may not work at all on more exotic maps, in fact I'm pretty sure Malcolm couldn't be placed in the 3rd room of River of Blood. It also does not play well with Heat of Battle, which is a common tournament setting.

I vote NO to review Agent Malcolm.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Aside from the typo in Already Here Sir, I do not like having a power like that for an "official" figure. It may not work at all on more exotic maps, in fact I'm pretty sure Malcolm couldn't be placed in the 3rd room of River of Blood. It also does not play well with Heat of Battle, which is a common tournament setting.

Apropos to this, it might be worth noting that no official power (including the Airborne Elite, Rechets of Bogdan, and Deathchasers of Thesk) makes reference to starting zones.

[tcglkn]

Originally Posted by dok

Apropos to this, it might be worth noting that no official power (including the Airborne Elite, Rechets of Bogdan, and Deathchasers of Thesk) makes reference to starting zones.

There are a lot of things official powers do not reference. Does that mean they are off limits? Also you guys shouldn't be voting with Heat of Battle rules in mind because those are custom rules. Really the only official way to play is scenarios and straight up battles so that's how you guys should be judging and testing. Don't limit designers by saying "official hasn't done this" because that's very stifling to creativity. Start Zones are an official part of the game and it should be acceptable to mention them in special powers just like you mention Glyphs.

I'm not saying I agree with it's use on this power because there are simply some maps that don't have many more than 10 spaces between the start zones. I don't think the power needs the 10 space restriction because this Agent isn't that strong and if you put him all the way across the map, he's probably gonna get taken down pretty quickly. I would just say he can't be placed adjacent to opponent's figures.

[Foudzing]

Hello judges!

First of all, thanks and congratulations for the great work. Pricsus seems to be awesome!

Just to tell you that the custom from the french community is coming.
I'm not good enough in english to show it, a good english speaker will show it here in 2 or 3 days.

We worked a lot on it, I hope it will satisfy you.

[Tmac2200]

Originally Posted by dok

Apropos to this, it might be worth noting that no official power (including the Airborne Elite, Rechets of Bogdan, and Deathchasers of Thesk) makes reference to starting zones.

You may have a point. It might be better to reword it to read similar to how the Deathchasers of Thesk card reads. I may retract my submission for rewording and further testing. Thanks for the advice. I'll keep working on Agent Malcolm and try to get him just right.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Hello judges!

First of all, thanks and congratulations for the great work. Pricsus seems to be awesome!

Just to tell you that the custom from the french community is coming.
I'm not good enough in english to show it, a good english speaker will show it here in 2 or 3 days.

We worked a lot on it, I hope it will satisfy you.

I, for one, am looking forward to seeing it! (although I am not a judge). Let me know if you want any help polishing the English.

[dok]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

There are a lot of things official powers do not reference. Does that mean they are off limits?

No, certainly not all of them. But when you refer to something that may or may not exist in a given game, particularly if you don't make clear how to handle it when it doesn't exist, that's a problem. The card language should not restrict a figure to only being used in certain scenarios.

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Also you guys shouldn't be voting with Heat of Battle rules in mind because those are custom rules. Really the only official way to play is scenarios and straight up battles so that's how you guys should be judging and testing.

I find this comment pretty funny, because heat of battle is a scenario... and I don't think it's an accident that all existing figures work with HoB.

There is no such thing as "straight up battles". 1v1, 24 space startzone, kill 'em all is the predominant tournament standard, and should be the most important consideration, but a quick perusal of the various back-of-the books and exclusive scenarios (lefton4ya rocks!) reveals that there are all sorts of different ways to handle placement. Have you ever played Chaos in the Catacombs? The wandering monster placement in that scenario is a bit wonky... how does it interact with this figure? There's more than one possible interpretation.

Also, as Scytale said (and you noted), there are maps where this figure simply couldn't be placed. That's a problem.

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Don't limit designers by saying "official hasn't done this" because that's very stifling to creativity. Start Zones are an official part of the game

Yes, they are an official part of the game. However, their absence is also part of the game. I don't particularly mind a card mentioning them, but it can't assume their presence. (That this is not a problem with the card in question; I am just making a general point.)

[Tiranx]

@scytale-- I have a problem with your reasoning on Clyemne. (Also, know that I am not trying to offend you, just giving some constructive criticism.) If Clyemne dies from a leaving engagement, then the requirement has already been met. She must end her movement next to an opponent. Your movement phase can consist of moving zero spaces.

Others have already mentioned the Kozuke Samurai argument and this one is even simpler because you are only using her standard movement. Your other argument that she may die from a passing engagement on her way to another figure also seems off to me because don't you declare you are leaving engagement, leaving engagement roll is made, and damage is accordingly applied before the movement is taken?

I would have to check the rule book on that, but the way I understand it you would still be adjacent to an oppent when you died meeting the Captain's Assault requirement. I could be wrong and am on numerouse occasions. Just ask qt.bangerange about my understanding of the summoning glyph rules from our last Utah tournament.

[/QUOTE]The most obvious possibility is Clyemne being killed by leaving engagement attacks on her way to a key enemy figure. If that happens, she fails to meet the requirement of ending her turn adjacent to an enemy. So is her entire turn then negated and reset? A perhaps more interesting example could occur due to her Passing Slash ability. Clyemne could disengage from a figure daring the leaving engagement attack and Passing Slash could kill that figure. If that is the only enemy unit nearby, she would be forced to end her movement not adjacent to an opponent's figure. Again, what does that mean? She should not have been able to use Captain's Assault at all, so is the turn negated?

I like the unit concept, the figure chosen is appropriate, and she seems fun to play. But I feel the requirement on Captain's Assault leaves unanswered edge cases, as any requirement on something happening in the future likely does.

I vote for Clyemne.[/QUOTE]

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Tiranx

Others have already mentioned the Kozuke Samurai argument and this one is even simpler because you are only using her standard movement. Your other argument that she may die from a passing engagement on her way to another figure also seems off to me because don't you declare you are leaving engagement, leaving engagement roll is made, and damage is accordingly applied before the movement is taken?

If she died while moving, she would not be ending her movement engaged with an opponent's figure because she would not be on the board. She would not be meeting the requirement to use the power that she already used. That's the conundrum of powers that require something happening in the future when that something is not guaranteed.

One could argue the dying case does not matter, but the fact that she also has Passing Slash makes this all the trickier. She could kill the only nearby unit during her movement phase with Passing Slash, leaving her unable to end her movement adjacent to another figure.

The Kozuke Samurai do set an (unfortunate, imo) precedent for powers that rely on something happening in the future, but the bonus and action of their power is limited to a single phase (movement) and the wording is decidedly loose ("must be able to"). The fact that Clyemne is taking a turn is very significant, triggering start of turn and end of turn powers and whatnot. A turn which, according to the power, she may or may not get depending on something happening on her turn which cannot be fully predicted.

There are lots of ways the unit could be changed to use a requirement that does have ambiguity. Something like the Mohican's War Cry perhaps. I'll leave that up to DeathDoom. The other judges may disagree with me as well and allow the unit to pass. I myself have issues with how Captain's Assault works.

[DeathDoom]

Ninja'd by Scytale:

Wow, I totally missed all the talk about Clyemne.

Thank you for reviewing her, Scytale! You've brought up some points that I'll have to remember for some of my other customs. While I realize that this may cause an issue, I think that Tiranx's point about engagement makes it a working unit. This also applies to Engagement Strike and Ice Spikes.

EDIT: as for the end-of-turn powers... how many are there? I can't think of any.

Not to argue with the vote, just the logic behind it. I really do appreciate the review.

[Tiranx]

It always amazes me how a simple game can still have complicated scenarios. Thanks scytale. I really appreciate how you can grasp the complicated in this game.