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  #85  
Old July 12th, 2020, 01:34 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

That works now. Thanks for the pictures, Splash! I like Large 7 or Large 8. Krug is Huge 8, but the original designers were a little inconsistent on large vs. huge; Huge has some soft benefits. I'm inclined to go with Large, but when you think about the description of the Cave Troll in Moria it had a massive foot, so I could also see going with Huge 8.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #86  
Old July 12th, 2020, 02:03 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

I'm on board with large as well, in terms of scale Trolls aren't the biggest things in Middle Earth.
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  #87  
Old July 13th, 2020, 03:43 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

Pardon the Interruption I just noticed that we have named the card Cave Troll of Moria but the power text always says "Moria Cave Troll." May want to update the OP to address that.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #88  
Old July 13th, 2020, 03:55 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

Yeah, nice catch.
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  #89  
Old December 31st, 2020, 06:25 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

HoME Playtest Form

NAME OF TEST UNIT: Cave Troll of Moria]
*Version tested
NAME = CAVE TROLL OF MORIA
GENERAL = UTGAR
SPECIES = TROLL
UNIQUENESS = UNCOMMON HERO
CLASS = BRUTE
PERSONALITY = FEROCIOUS
SIZE/HEIGHT = LARGE/7? (double-spaced)

LIFE = 6
MOVE = 4
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 2
POINTS = 90

CAVE DWELLER 2
If this Moria Cave Troll moves over at least three contiguous dungeon or shadow spaces, you may add an additional 1 space to his move. This Moria Cave Troll rolls 2 additional attack dice when attacking an adjacent figure or destructible object on at least one dungeon or shadow space.

TOUGH
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack, this Moria Cave Troll always adds 1 automatic shield to whatever is rolled.


THEME TEST: Are there any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects.
[Nope, looks good.]

FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play?
[Yes, a big fun Troll that can smash weak enemies and doesnít go down easy.]

FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying?
[It went well, can take awhile to chip away at, unless you are using special attacks]

USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable?
[Yup, didnít use the bonus move too often, and pretty much all of Cave Dweller relies on the map you are using.]

STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game?
[Yes, works quite well as a standalone legbreaker to throw in any army, really the map is the main consideration.]

BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately?
[Donít see any.]

SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak?
[Not really, itís designed as a stand-alone tank build that can be thrown in any army.]

POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including all finalized C3V, SoV, and HoME units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? Each power should define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what conditions (if any) apply.
[Looks good as far as I can tell.]

DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting?
[Yes, but most usually in dungeon/shadow maps.]

MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game?
[Nope.]

ARMY TEST 1

Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary.
[The first two Cave Trolls had a very strong start and managed to one shot two elves (thanks to Cave Dweller boosting their already good attack), before being taken out (mostly because those Elven specials completely ignored Tough, which didnít see much action this game). Another note is that even without Tough being used much, the 6 life really helps make up for the low defense and gives them some time to get damage in. Krug moved in and sweeped before the last Troll even had a chance to do anything.]


Map: [Burial Marsh]
Units: Army 1: [Cave Troll of Moria X3 90pts, Krug 120pts, Brunak 110pts] ([500pts]) VS Army 2: [Acolarh 110pts, Syvarris 100pts, Jorhdawn 100pts, Chardris 90pts, Emirroon 80pts, Kyntela Gwyn 20pts] ([460pts])
Spoiler Alert!


ARMY TEST 2

Did the unit perform adequately? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary.
[The Cave Troll proved tough to take down (it was pretty stalematey for a bit), but in the end I relied too much on that and it cost me some order markers, it was a close game. Cave Dweller helped a lot and helped the Troll smash 120pts worth of units]


Map: [Burial Marsh]
Units: Army 1: [Cave Troll of Moria 90pts, Ornak 100pts, Tornak 100pts, Heavy Gruts 70pts (X3)] (500pts) VS Army 2: [Sir Gilbert 100pts, Sir Denrick 100pts, Macdirk Warriors (X2) 80pts, Knights of Weston (X2) 70pts] ([500pts])
Spoiler Alert!
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  #90  
Old December 31st, 2020, 06:29 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

Got my tests done just before the year wraps. Pointwise I might like to see a small boost to 95pts, but that's just going by feel and the map was Troll friendly. Average out damage dealt per active troll and you get 84pts, so 90 is still fine too.
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  #91  
Old December 31st, 2020, 07:19 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

Great tests! Looks like this unit turned out to be ok. Big, tanky, smash bust still gies down to what it is supposed to. 95 isnt a huge adjustment if we go that way with it, that's a good note to have.
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  #92  
Old January 24th, 2021, 01:37 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

Thank you so much for the test, @Splash ! If you decide to run anymore, you can skip the Q&A part since you've done it once and just dive straight to the report + summary.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #93  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 03:14 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

I know you guys have put in one set of tests on this guy but here goes. The Cave Dweller ability is thematic for the unit, but is overly complex for what it does. Terrain dependent characters are niche and hard to use for the most part in Heroscape. Wouldn't it help the unit by simplifying the ability a little by saying. If the Cave Troll starts his movement on at least one shadow or dungeon space, you may add +2 move. If the Cave Troll is on at least 1 shadow or dungeon space when attacking, you may add +2 to your attack. Since this character is a double hexed figure, it will be somewhat hard to even get to use his only interesting ability, unless the entirety of the map is dungeon and shadow. The rest of the card looks thematic enough.
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  #94  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 03:23 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

TLDR: I'm a fan of simplifying whenever possible, but I don't want the cave troll to be worth his points on a map with very little dungeon.

-----------------------------

I suppose I don't see "niche" & "hard to use" as inherently bad things for this card. Cave trolls (and moria orcs) are only ever seen in Moria (or right outside, at night) canonically as far as I remember, and I think it makes sense that a cave troll won't be worth his points on a non-dungeon heavy map.

That being said, I do see "overly complex" as a problem for any card. I agree that the ability as written is definitely more complex than either (1) road movement bonus and (2) just starting or just ending on shadow. But I'm not sure that your proposal is the best solution because the troll's strength doesn't scale well with the increasing percentage of dungeon tiles on the map.

I'm not sure what the best answer here is at this point though.

What are others thoughts?
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  #95  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 03:39 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Perkins View Post
TLDR: I'm a fan of simplifying whenever possible, but I don't want the cave troll to be worth his points on a map with very little dungeon.

-----------------------------

I suppose I don't see "niche" & "hard to use" as inherently bad things for this card. Cave trolls (and moria orcs) are only ever seen in Moria (or right outside, at night) canonically as far as I remember, and I think it makes sense that a cave troll won't be worth his points on a non-dungeon heavy map.

That being said, I do see "overly complex" as a problem for any card. I agree that the ability as written is definitely more complex than either (1) road movement bonus and (2) just starting or just ending on shadow. But I'm not sure that your proposal is the best solution because the troll's strength doesn't scale well with the increasing percentage of dungeon tiles on the map.

I'm not sure what the best answer here is at this point though.

What are others thoughts?
Iíve thought it over as Iíve been catching up with the designs in here to give them a look, and decided that this group isnít for me. I do like the start of the Hobbit cards but most of the villian cards donít really line up even close to what I would think as a thematic direction. This is not a bad thing. Just not for me. I thought I would give it another go, as it appeared that there may have a chance of allowing alternate ideas, but seems itís not that way. Good luck to you fellas. Iíll just finish making the rest of my Tolkien customs in my customs thread. Feel free to disregard my input.
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  #96  
Old February 2nd, 2021, 03:40 PM
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Re: Workbook of Cave Troll of Moria - Playtesting (Fellowshi

This would be my stab at simplifying it without distorting the power too much. I feel that shadow spaces in general arent in super advantageous places to begin with. Troll still needs to occupy both spaces for the defensive shadow boost, and the simplification of this power may have precedence in LURK IN SHADOWS from the Black DnD dragon.

CAVE DWELLER 2
If this Moria Cave Troll starts their turn on at least 1 dungeon or shadow space, you may add an additional 1 space to his move. This Moria Cave Troll rolls 2 additional attack dice when attacking an adjacent figure or destructible object on at least one dungeon or shadow space.
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