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  #2017  
Old June 7th, 2009, 09:24 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

Repulsors are small and can't climb. Dwarves are basically just Marro Drones unless there's something huge and/or Large on the board for them to fight...I really don't think either of these are as great as everyone seems to think they are...

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  #2018  
Old June 7th, 2009, 09:25 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
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Originally Posted by GreenLanturn View Post
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Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
OK back to dwarves...yes they are dragon killing machines, but are they Sponge Worthy..uh I mean Tourny Worthy?
I would think the sight of them would make a player using those big (large/huge) hitters play much more cautiously, leaving most of what he has left open for attack from Migol (who is looking to be my favorite hero this wave). In most tournaments I think its safe to say 500 points (I've yet to be in one), so a big hitter like the dragons, majors, and other assorted giants will be 25%-45% of their army total. Thats something to worry about losing to midgets.

Against other squads I think they lose out because they are to closely related to the KoW and suffer a lack of bonding options. They would be good for the start of a game as far as glyph grabbing, but after that they should slowly lose momentum. Move is only good when you can use it, but I suppose they have the option to use a hero instead of the move.

Do I think they are useful in tournaments? Not yet, but someday I hope so.
I agree they will not stand up to other squads toe to toe, but in a tourny setting how many opposing armies have a Q9/Q10 or a dragon?

I don't know that's why I am asking.
Although I don't really think it's a represetative sample, and it included some tournaments with funny house rules, I went through the last 3 pages of the "Tournaments Armies Played" thread and counted. The percentage of armies listed including at least 120 points worth of large/huge figures was right around 50%. Perhaps Jexik or ollie or someone else who keeps decent records can figure out what percentage of their opponents played a significantly large/huge army - there's less selection bias in a sample like that.

Anyway, I don't think a 3/3 squad with squadsize of 4 and bonding is that terrible even if there aren't any huge targets around. The dwarves don't seem any more situational than, say, Zelrig. I love the core of Migol, Dwarves, and Braxas, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it do well if the points work out right.

Last edited by dok; June 7th, 2009 at 11:37 PM. Reason: double negative oopsie
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  #2019  
Old June 7th, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
Repulsors are small and can't climb. Dwarves are basically just Marro Drones unless there's something huge and/or Large on the board for them to fight...I really don't think either of these are as great as everyone seems to think they are...

Brandon
Marro Drones bond with a hero who has deadly strike and one shield defense?

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  #2020  
Old June 7th, 2009, 10:06 PM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Perhaps Jexik or ollie or someone else who keeps decent records can figure out what percentage of their opponents played a significantly large/huge army - there's less selection bias in a sample like that.

Anyway, I don't think a 3/3 squad with squadsize of 4 and bonding is not terrible even if there aren't any huge targets around. The dwarves don't seem any more situational than, say, Zelrig. I love the core of Migol, Dwarves, and Braxas, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it do well if the points work out right.
My data isn't organized very well. I never really put it down in spreadsheets, but rather just made tallies from all of my battle reports. That's part of the reason that I've always written a battle report and put it up on the site.

It might also be interesting to look at the top armies from GenCon over the last three years. Against most of those, I don't think I'd want to be the dwarves. I do like them with Braxas though. If I go to a 530 point tournament any time soon...

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; June 7th, 2009 at 10:13 PM.
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  #2021  
Old June 8th, 2009, 12:21 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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I was going to let this sleeping dog lie, but I actually saw that 4 of my peeps had given me + Rep for my posts in this thread in the last 2 days.
  1. It was never my intent nor did I say that tourny play was a bad thing. I'm afraid too many people think that it is the only way to play the game.
  2. I know many pillars of the community who will no longer partake in the tourny scene. It's not because they are poor losers, its because they have to spend an entire Saturday afternoon playing against POOR Winners, or with folks who they would not normally hang out with. It's not being elitist but I wouldn't want to hang out with LARPer Funk loser or Stoner guy all day either. I would rather get together with a few close friends and lose every game but still have fun.
  3. Won't use a unit because it's not a "B" or above. Man Spider has kicked some serious A S S with making this list but I think maybe in the wrong hands it could do more harm than good. Just because a unit is not "toury worthy" does not mean in the right scenario, map, or counter draft that it could be a killing machine. Take the time to discover the joy of every unit on your own. Don't take someone else's word as Gospel. Play the game and discover it on your own.
  4. Its about about having fun. I don't give an aerial reproductive act how you play the game as long as you have fun doing it.
OK It's time for Game 5 of the Cup.

Hahn
The din for a new tournament structure is there underneath the all the a screaming of the competitive unit/amry/map talk. It's been their for a couple of years now (maybe 3 if start with Imax). The voice is now starting to grow louder from a number of different places. I don't think it's the competitive nature that's causing this slow uprising but the simplistic nature of the current tournament structure that allows certain power playing to become unenjoyable to many.

The time for change it now!

And damn straight I play for fun. I'm right here with you on all you have said.
I don't know a lot about Organized Play short of the "Oh that unit is retired and can no longer be used." Is that what you mean?

Glad to see I have a heavy hitter in more corner.
No that's not what I mean. I'm talking about a means of making all but maybe 2 or 3 unit's viable as competitive in a new tournament format. With the number of unit now available it's a little disheartening that because of the current kill'm-all format that less than 15 units makeup the bulk of tournament armies at anyone time. There are so many well designed units that have more value than being a simple killing machine. A shift in army design is also need away from straight out tour-de-force to balanced multitasking units. The next codex will have a feature article dedicated to a couple of different solution I have come up with. I don't want to tip my hand to much but I feel that several of things built into the game have been ignored and need to be brought more to the forefront. No offense to Spider but I would like to make this type of unit ranking all but obsolete.

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  #2022  
Old June 8th, 2009, 12:29 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

First the on topic portion...

With the new Cards, I will attempt to post my feed back on those...

I belive the only squad that is going to be used a lot by me in normal tournaments, would be the repulsors. Here's the reason, my main figure and by far my best is Cyprien. In my opinion, he's the third best figure next to the two majors. When i face the challenge to make a possible winning tournament army with Cyprien, I usually have one of two people, Anubian wolves or the Krav. I mainly pick wolves because I play with Sonya, and the Wolves round the 5 off. Repulsors i would but somewhere in the A's...

What my arch nemisis likes, are the dwarves. I personally would chose Knights over dwarves if him and I had to pick one of the two to battle each other. Dwarves have three in a squad, for me not high enough defense for my cruddy defence rolls, and well they will only have 4 attacks a turn. However, since the dwarves themselves can be used after their hero has died with much more ferocity then with their hero is alive or with the whole not moving the hero. That 6 move to tie up a Q10 or Q9 can really have an effect when the hero is one or two turns from the target. I would give both an A since they will be a force against my normal Tourny armies.

The indians, well they're nice, but like with stealth armour on the Microcorp, they're not always going to use their abilities. For me, generally a great D20 roller, they would be decent and generally roll far greater times then most people in my group, yet I would give them both a B of some sort...

The Ninja didn't spark my interest, I would go with a C or lower.

The gladiators, of course that's what we want so we can have Spartacus, Retarius and the other one to bond. However, that's all they do that's worthy in the battlefield. Of course initiative is fun to have, but not that real of a threat when one has the +8. I would put them at a C+ or a B.

The Protectors could change the game, yet with a decent squad backing up your hero's they're toast compared with the other three Kyrie squads. Even with their hero, I would prefer the more expensive and faster moving Imperium. Yet, with their bonding and the first common flying range squad, they deserve an A- or a B+ but way to expensive for anything higher then an A...

As of right now, that's what I believe is reasonable for them.

now for the off topic....

I find most people in the Mid-west quite friendly in the tournament settings. Sadly, I believe most of the time when someone is being mean it's me being arrogant. I try to play fair, yet sometimes I have caught myself doing something like, not telling them they need to roll one more attack dice, or telling the other person to move more forward or telling them a much better spot to place their unit. My friend Matthias would do it, I try to help those who have less experience as much as I can, without trying to win their game for them against me. Though I have heard that I am sort of arrogant when I say I should beat this army, after looking at their army. Most of the time I am right about it, but I say good game, don't cuss or get in a bad mood when i do happen to lose. Though, I have also heard I'm quite a smack talker, who can back my stuff up. Also in opinion of mine and some of my groups, I could possibly be one of the top Cyprien users, though most games I'm not that great without Sonya, Last tournament used 6 anubian wolves and Cyprien for a 600 one General army, and out of the 10 missed chilling touch, at least 7 of them where an 11 or 12. IF I would have went with Sonya, in my prediction I would have wasted three whole armies alone with him. But I went 3-1 and the one i lost to was because I rolled a 1 on my wolf, when he had one heavy grut left....worst way to lose with that army....
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  #2023  
Old June 8th, 2009, 12:52 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Tiny Timmy View Post
Dwarves have three in a squad, for me not high enough defense for my cruddy defence rolls, and well they will only have 4 attacks a turn.
Dwarves are 4 to squad. But the knights are still better.

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  #2024  
Old June 8th, 2009, 04:31 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Hahnarama View Post
OK I promise last post here about my views on tournys. But I was serious about Spider posting a warning on page one of this thread. We need to warn new players that this is a place for the hard core I want to Kick Spiders Ass and knock him off his thrown as Scape Champion of the Universe thread.If you're new you need to play 25 games on your own before you go "hard core"

I got into Heroscape between Waves 5 and 6. As I was plotting out what units to buy, I used the rankings in an effort to avoid allowing one or two dominating armies into my collection that would be the only things I owned worth playing. I waited for a month or two before buying any bonding units and then bought more than one at a time, that type of thing.

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OK back to dwarves...yes they are dragon killing machines, but are they Sponge Worthy..uh I mean Tourny Worthy?
They're not worthy in a mass build, as far as I can tell. They could be useful as the biggest blade on a Swiss army knife. The people who bring knights or Heavy Gruts x3 and a bunch of bonding targets probably won't switch, because there are no more dwarf leaders to bring up when Migol (finally) dies. But the same people who take Sujoah and spiders as a 265-point self-contained tool or Tor-Kul-Na and Nagrubs as a 280-point tool will feel comfortable taking Migol and Dwarves as a 250-point tool. TKN, Sujoah, nagrubs, and spiders are all Grade B units, and I expect the Dwarves to fit right in there at B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpiusx View Post
Anyway, as far as ratings go, I would guess that the Capuan Gladiators, Dwarves, and Repulsors would be rated the highest. The first two seem like stout melee options, while the Repulsors may have actually affected the metagame as we know it.

-scorp
Don't forget Atlaga. 7-move Raelin, 5-move Minions! And range 5, attack 4 for 90 points is well above the offensive production of a typical support figure, even discounting Witherwood. According to the power rankings, the Minions are currently the second-best Kyrie at an A-. That's where I'd think Atlaga would go.
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  #2025  
Old June 8th, 2009, 09:35 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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A person i have a huge amount of Respect for is Uprising... he plays a General Theme army every single tournament. Some may say it's stupid, but I think it takes gut's to do that. Why does he do that... Because he wants to, nothing more nothing less!
Someone pointed this post out to me. All I can say about General Themed armies is that it's the most enjoyable aspect of building an army for me. I've been to two tournaments where Craig Van Ness has also played. Although I didn't get to play him at either one, I did notice that he also likes to use single General Themed armies. If that's how the creator of the game likes to play, I know I'm in good company
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  #2026  
Old June 8th, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiny Timmy View Post
Dwarves have three in a squad, for me not high enough defense for my cruddy defence rolls, and well they will only have 4 attacks a turn.
Dwarves are 4 to squad. But the kights are still better.
Could more Dwarven units change this or is it pretty set?
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  #2027  
Old June 8th, 2009, 11:35 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiny Timmy View Post
Dwarves have three in a squad, for me not high enough defense for my cruddy defence rolls, and well they will only have 4 attacks a turn.
Dwarves are 4 to squad. But the knights are still better.
Could more Dwarven units change this or is it pretty set?
Pretty sure they will still be 4 to a squad. kidding

More dwarven champions to bond with would certainly make them better. But who really knows what the future holds and how it will affect the dwarf / knight comparison?

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  #2028  
Old June 8th, 2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: Heroscape Power Rankings

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More dwarven champions to bond with would certainly make them better. But who really knows what the future holds and how it will affect the dwarf / knight comparison?
Um, you?
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