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  #73  
Old November 20th, 2019, 05:32 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
But aren't dumb arguements what the internet is for?

I do think it is worth noting the biggest impact of C3V is more choice. these means you basically have no idea what you'll see at a tournament, so the rock-paper-scissors is less meaningful. I won an event with Parmino and SB because the weird armies people brought. More Choice with unique win conditions and soooooooo many units observing the power curve means the meta is unlike to change much.
I'm glad that that's your experience, Wriggz, but to me that means it's working as intended.

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  #74  
Old November 20th, 2019, 05:42 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
I do think it is worth noting the biggest impact of C3V is more choice. these means you basically have no idea what you'll see at a tournament, so the rock-paper-scissors is less meaningful. I won an event with Parmino and SB because the weird armies people brought. More Choice with unique win conditions and soooooooo many units observing the power curve means the meta is unlike to change much.
I disagree with this heavily. People bringing weird things just means that people like to have fun and try out new things, not that the meta gets more diverse. Local tournaments are not generally a good test of what is good and what is not, because most people are playing sub-optimal armies. Unless everyone is bringing the A-level cheese, there isn't a good standardized environment to truly see the power levels of a lot of these units with large enough sample sizes to be meaningful.

Also, more units doesn't necessarily mean more diversity among the top. It is very possible that the inclusion of some VC units could actually reduce diversity at the top (I'm not saying with a definitive answer that it does, I'm saying that we don't have good data to say that it doesn't). What I do have is stats from X-Wing where there are two formats that may as well be official only and VC-inclusive, for analogy's sake. If I asked which was more diverse, it would seem intuitive for it to be the second one. The reality is that adding more options creates complicated, unpredictable effects and interactions; this caused the official-only format in X-Wing to be MUCH more diverse at the top end.

For example, let's assume for a second that Marutuk ends up at around an A- (I haven't played him, but just play along with this assumption for a second). An A- unit is good, but not broken. Between him, Cathar, and 10th, I don't think you can viably run Heavies anymore. I also don't think you can run Greenscales Nilf anymore; they have enough trouble with consistency vs. the top end, and now you introduce a hard counter. That's enough to where I'm out on Greenscales Nilf. Perhaps he ends up being everywhere, so Q9 falls off. Now, 4th Mass are largely unchecked. Knights are still good in this meta. Stingers are really bad in this new meta as you just want quantity of attacks, and you're better off with Knights, Cathar, 4th, or 10th. So now you're left with a meta where you've gained one option (Cathar, as Marutuk just goes with established armies), whereas you've lost four (Heavies, Q9, Stingers, and Greenscales). Again, this is an assumption based on him being as good as I think he is (read: really good), but just the inclusion of this one unit could upend the entirety of the power structure and reduce diversity in competitive play by nearly half.

Last edited by OrcElfArmyOne; November 20th, 2019 at 05:55 PM. Reason: For more on local vs competitive ie GenCon, check out the new episode of CoV releasing soon™️...
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  #75  
Old November 20th, 2019, 05:46 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
But aren't dumb arguements what the internet is for?

I do think it is worth noting the biggest impact of C3V is more choice. these means you basically have no idea what you'll see at a tournament, so the rock-paper-scissors is less meaningful. I won an event with Parmino and SB because the weird armies people brought. More Choice with unique win conditions and soooooooo many units observing the power curve means the meta is unlike to change much.
I'm glad that that's your experience, Wriggz, but to me that means it's working as intended.
Oh I'm on the choice and fun side not the narrow and robotic side.

And C3v does enough testing and aims so hard at b that I doubt it will change.


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  #76  
Old November 20th, 2019, 08:16 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Interesting discussion. I'll try to check up and write a response, especially since my name was thrown out a bit.

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
And C3v does enough testing and aims so hard at b that I doubt it will change.
I'll just say this one thing now. Aiming hard for b means jack when you end up landing at A or -A. Edit: I don't think it needs said that A ranked units effect the meta.
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  #77  
Old November 20th, 2019, 08:24 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

If you have something to say, just say it.

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Last edited by superfrog; November 20th, 2019 at 08:24 PM. Reason: Aiming to be subtle means jack when you end up landing at blatant
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  #78  
Old November 20th, 2019, 08:25 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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If you have something to say, just say it.
I think Nathan just discovered this thread and wants to read the discussion that's happened before responding fully.
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  #79  
Old November 20th, 2019, 08:46 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by infectedsloth View Post
Interesting discussion. I'll try to check up and write a response, especially since my name was thrown out a bit.

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
And C3v does enough testing and aims so hard at b that I doubt it will change.
I'll just say this one thing now. Aiming hard for b means jack when you end up landing at A or -A. Edit: I don't think it needs said that A ranked units effect the meta.
Pfft. An occasional A or A- unit is not "affecting the meta." That's just variety. The old good units are still good. And to the extent there is some flux below the top 3 or 4 army builds, that's a good thing and not bad.

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  #80  
Old November 20th, 2019, 08:50 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
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Originally Posted by infectedsloth View Post
Interesting discussion. I'll try to check up and write a response, especially since my name was thrown out a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
And C3v does enough testing and aims so hard at b that I doubt it will change.
I'll just say this one thing now. Aiming hard for b means jack when you end up landing at A or -A. Edit: I don't think it needs said that A ranked units effect the meta.
Pfft. An occasional A or A- unit is not "affecting the meta." That's just variety. The old good units are still good. And to the extent there is some flux below the top 3 or 4 army builds, that's a good thing and not bad.
I'm sorry, but that's not true. A single A-level unit or card in ANY expandable game can effectively remove other A-level options from being viable. I can give examples from other games, if you'd like. It could absolutely happen in HeroScape as well.
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  #81  
Old November 20th, 2019, 09:00 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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  #82  
Old November 20th, 2019, 09:29 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

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Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
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Originally Posted by infectedsloth View Post
Interesting discussion. I'll try to check up and write a response, especially since my name was thrown out a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
And C3v does enough testing and aims so hard at b that I doubt it will change.
I'll just say this one thing now. Aiming hard for b means jack when you end up landing at A or -A. Edit: I don't think it needs said that A ranked units effect the meta.
Pfft. An occasional A or A- unit is not "affecting the meta." That's just variety. The old good units are still good. And to the extent there is some flux below the top 3 or 4 army builds, that's a good thing and not bad.
I'm sorry, but that's not true. A single A-level unit or card in ANY expandable game can effectively remove other A-level options from being viable. I can give examples from other games, if you'd like. It could absolutely happen in HeroScape as well.
We don’t aim for it. If it happens, it happens. And if the metagame is changed, by your definition, then so be it. If the alternative is stagnation, or not even trying, then I’d happily do it again.

Sounds like it’s more an issue of defining the term “changing the metagame” than anything else.

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  #83  
Old November 20th, 2019, 09:29 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

I think I side with OEAO here in principle but with D_S in practice.

Creating new A units can be done in two ways:
  • making units that are good because they counter other A armies
  • making units that are good because they are similar to other A armies

If you do the second, it doesn't have much impact on the rest of the meta. New choices, as D_S said. If you do the first, it has a domino effect of sorts.

I still think the domino effect can be rather small, and I think so far it has been. Knights and Heavies and Greenscales and Axegrinders and 4th and Stingers are all good still.

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  #84  
Old November 20th, 2019, 09:36 PM
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?

Right, and I don't mean to say that it'll be exclusively through replacement. I'm sure that it's not the goal of VC to create A-level, meta-warping figures, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

I don't think Heavies are A-level with Cathar and Marutuk in the meta. I think they drop to A-, which means they're too weak for double blind. Doesn't mean they're bad by any stretch of the imagination, but they're probably not good enough any more if your goal is to win tournaments. I think Greenscales are certainly too weak now; Marutuk should dumpster them in either the 10th or Cutters builds you can run.

Before it comes up, saying there are alternate formats is not a good defense for having busted units. Many tournaments around the country still use double-blind, be it New England, Ohio, TTO, or GenCon. There are places that exclusively use alternate formats, but they're not a vast majority.
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