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  #1  
Old September 24th, 2007, 09:58 AM
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A New Type of Hero...?

I'm starting a new thread for this so we don't take away from the ongoing trials. This came up in the Michaelangelo and Sentinel trials, but it's better suited to it's own topic.

Here's the issue: there are some characters that thematically are common, but are very hard to model accurately in Heroscape with only 1 Life. Some example that came up are:
  • Doombots
  • Sentinels
  • from Star Wars, AT-AT Walkers
These are all clearly things that shouldn't be able to be killed with a single hit. So the point of this thread is to brainstorm ideas for how we can have a Common Hero figure with more than 1 Life, or something that is essentially like that.

Idea 1
Make Common Heroes have more than 1 Life and find a way to identify which one is which so you can keep track of damage. There are various ways to do this, all of which involve tracking wounds on the base or the figure itself.

Problems with this approach is that it can make these types of figures too powerful. As rdhight pointed out, you would have to ability to choose which to activate on a given order marker and they would be immune to specials that affect Unique Heroes only, yet they would be as powerful as Unique Heroes.

Idea 2
Come up with a third type of Hero in addition to the existing "Common" and "Unique". They would be treated as Unique for all purposes, except that you can have more than one of them.

Problem with this is the same as before...how do you tell them apart? If you give them different names or designations, then they are essentially Unique and you have to make a different card for each one. If they have the same name, you can't tell them apart.

Ideas? Please??
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  #2  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:01 AM
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Youn don't need to come up with a new type of hero. You could give the common hero an ability that allows them to last longer. Take Deathwalkers as an example. They could easily be common as they have just one wound. An ATAT could be similar with a high defense or some other ability that prolongs their stay on the battlefield.

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  #3  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:20 AM
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The problem we've seen from that approach is that it doesn't always fit thematically. With that approach you either kill them or you do nothing, whereas we're trying to find a way that allows you to wear it down over time through wounds. Plus we want to remove the possibility of killing the figure with a single strike, regardless of how probable or improbable it may be.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Youn don't need to come up with a new type of hero. You could give the common hero an ability that allows them to last longer. Take Deathwalkers as an example. They could easily be common as they have just one wound. An ATAT could be similar with a high defense or some other ability that prolongs their stay on the battlefield.
I realize that you can approximate it in some cases with other defensive powers, but even the best and most thematic variation on Stealth Armor or Tough doesn't have the same wearing-down effect that losing life conveys. I don't see it as a 1-Life problem, but a multiple heroes on one card problem, with the 1 Life only a symptom.

I suggest calling them "standard heroes" if we go with a new type.

Really, I think they should be mechanically identical to unique heroes who are alike in every way but name.
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  #5  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl
The problem we've seen from that approach is that it doesn't always fit thematically. With that approach you either kill them or you do nothing, whereas we're trying to find a way that allows you to wear it down over time through wounds. Plus we want to remove the possibility of killing the figure with a single strike, regardless of how probable or improbable it may be.
Having done many customs throughout the last several years I don't think that there is anything you can't do within the current rules. If you are wanting to create a new hero type, then go for it, but I don't think it necessary. If you want to show an effect from a wound that was shrugged off, you remove order markers, if you want to make a figure really tough to kill, you raise defense or use an ability to shrug off wounds. There are tons and tons of ideas and ways to do it wiothout having to create another class of hero.

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  #6  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:32 AM
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A high defense still has the possibility of an unlucky/lucky roll on either side.
For example, a figure with 4 attack attacks a figure with 7 defense. The attacker rolls 4 skulls, the defender rolls 3 skulls (not uncommon really) and boom, defender is dead. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. A lucky shot with a sword isn't going to take down a Sentinel for example.

The only ways to tackle this that I can think of at the moment are these:

1) Leave as Common Hero and give 'Armour' points that act as wounds (mentioned somewhere) kept track of on the base of the figure.
* This is not viable as things such as doom bots won't have much room on a base for multiple markers

2) Make them Unique Heroes and designate each figure a subtitle. For example: Sentinel: Alpha, Sentinel: Beta etc... figures are told apart by dots on their shoulder and on their card. This way they are legally able to have more than one life.
* Some people have a problem with making multiple Uniques that are essentially the same. Really it is just a conflict of words (ie. Unique and multiples meaning they aren't really Unique) and of course thematically Sentinels, Doombots and AT-AT walkers aren't Unique.

3) Create another class of Heroes - eg. Special Heroes, Uncommon Heroes etc... Treat them just like a Unique Hero except that there are more than one and they have multiple life. Basically as per 2) but labelling them as Special Heroes/Uncommon Heroes.

My personal opinion is #3 as I don't think 1 or 2 provide a complete solution. There are problems with both options. Number 3, whereas even though there is no pretense for them in the game, it makes sense to include this new class. It is quite clearly a limitation on the game that needs to be rectified.

Looking forward to some good discussion.

Ben.

"Hi Ho, what new devilry is this?" - this may have been said if Kermit the Frog and Boromir were combined and set loose upon the world... probably not though.
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  #7  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyOwl
The problem we've seen from that approach is that it doesn't always fit thematically. With that approach you either kill them or you do nothing, whereas we're trying to find a way that allows you to wear it down over time through wounds. Plus we want to remove the possibility of killing the figure with a single strike, regardless of how probable or improbable it may be.
Having done many customs throughout the last several years I don't think that there is anything you can't do within the current rules. If you are wanting to create a new hero type, then go for it, but I don't think it necessary. If you want to show an effect from a wound that was shrugged off, you remove order markers, if you want to make a figure really tough to kill, you raise defense or use an ability to shrug off wounds. There are tons and tons of ideas and ways to do it wiothout having to create another class of hero.
Again, 1 Life is not the heart of the issue. There's also the problem of being able to choose which common hero you move at the time you reveal the marker. That's going to be a huge advantage if Sentinels and Imperial walkers are common. I like the idea that if you draft two Sentinels, you have to choose where to put your order markers ahead of time. That means you need two cards-- with identical stats.

I think Boromir and kermit's No. 2 is the way to do it within the existing rules. I'm kind of conservative, so I won't be sorry if that's where the consensus lands. But I don't have my heart set on it. For one thing, people will probably draw a line in the sand over the word "unique" and fight for the idea that it has to mean there is only one of them in existence.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 10:36 AM
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If it is mechanicly no different than a unique, this discussion is unnecessary as you can simply make them all unique and as suggested just include some way to tell them apart.. Call it what you want but it is no different really and that is essentially what I have said above. My point is that no new mechanic needs invention.

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  #9  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:37 AM
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Rdhight you are correct.
The major issue is not just the 1 wound (although it definetly is part of it) but having the figures operate as independents (Independent Heroes?) and not as Commons.

I respect your view and experience in the field Grungebob, but I'm sorry I have to disagree with you. I think it is necessary to thematically represent some characters/figures.

EDIT: The problem is the wording Unique. You cannot have more than one Unique with the same name. It is that rule that keeps these figures from going down that route.

Ben.

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  #10  
Old September 24th, 2007, 10:40 AM
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The reason I didn't want to go the route of making them Unique with different subtitles as that it still requires you to make a separate card for each one. Since you have no idea how many someone will draft, this is problematic. It would be nice to have a solution that requires only 1 card.
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Old September 24th, 2007, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boromir_and_kermit
Rdhight you are correct.
The major issue is not just the 1 wound (although it definetly is part of it) but having the figures operate as independents (Independent Heroes?) and not as Commons.

I respect your view and experience in the field Grungebob, but I'm sorry I have to disagree with you. I think it is necessary to thematically represent some characters/figures.

EDIT: The problem is the wording Unique. You cannot have more than one Unique with the same name. It is that rule that keeps these figures from going down that route.

Ben.
Like I said, call it what you want but it is no different than a unique. I have seen folks make uniques out of each of the Nikitas as an example so that you have three nikitas, that have the exact same abilities, multiple wounds, yet act as uniques and are told apart on the field by their sculps.

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Old September 24th, 2007, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Like I said, call it what you want but it is no different than a unique. I have seen folks make uniques out of each of the Nikitas as an example so that you have three nikitas, that have the exact same abilities, multiple wounds, yet act as uniques and are told apart on the field by their sculps.
Yes, but essentially what we're trying to figure out is how do you solve that problem if the sculpts are identical?
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