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  #37  
Old July 4th, 2019, 01:22 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
RE: name and general. Hellcats is good, but I also like <something> Pride. Kind of gets across that these are magical animals that just happen to be fire cats.

I also like them as Aquilla, but thatís just me. Weíre going to have a lot of Utgar I feel.
Maybe not magical afterall...Just an idea...

If not demon , elemental.or magicall .
..maybe is natural evolution ...Micro fusion.....

Combustion Cats..
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  #38  
Old July 5th, 2019, 02:30 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

Color scheme doesn't 100% track general to general, but I think assigning these bright red burning cats to anyone but Utgar seems a little silly.

We've got a solid overall direction here but we're a little divided on the details. Here's some suggestions for what to put in the OP, let me know how these hit y'all.

(Unit name)
Utgar

Elementals (or some sort of made-up race? Sadly Arrow Gruts don't specify heroes for their bonding, so beasts is out of the question.)
Unique Squad
Hunters (mostly a placeholder. Seems a decent option but we can discuss others)
Wild (Feel a bit more solid about this than I do hunters, but still open to discussion)
Large ??

Life 1
Move ? (varies depending on inflame, between 5-8 )
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 5

Points ???

Power 1:
Inflame

Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add (move or attack buff). Optional condition 1: If there are no blaze counters on this army card, subtract X from this card's defense value. Optional condition 2: Something that allows blaze counters to be regained automatically.

(Personally, I like Inflame as a power that either just boosts attack or that grants a substantive move boost in addition to attack. If we do the movement boost, I would rather make it feel really significant by giving the cats base 5 move and having the move be +3 instead of +1. So I like having +3 move +1 attack, or just +1 attack and have a base move of 7 or 8.

I can take or leave optional condition 1. It's cute and adds some tension, but that's all. Optional condition 2 I don't personally care for. It adds another trigger and possibly a D20 roll to the power that overcomplicate it a little too much for my taste.)

Power 2:
Extinguish

Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water space, remove all blaze counters from this army card. (Blaze counters may not be placed on this army card while any of your (figure name's) are on water spaces.)

(Relatively straightforward, mostly flavor here. This power's actual implications depend significantly on how other powers work, so it's not worth discussion much in and of itself.)

Power 3:
Heat Absorption

If a (figure name) would receive one or more wounds from a source that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.

OR

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.

(Fairly simple choice here. I think heat absorption is kinda neat but won't come up too much in actual play. I worry slightly about it spiking their cost by making them much stronger on lava maps, which won't be present in this master set, but even then it's slow going to build their markers back up. Ultimately that's a good thing, as it means we can balance the design around them having just three markers to spend with Heat Absorption giving them a little more legs in longer games or scenarios rather than standard tournament play.)

Last edited by All Your Pie; July 5th, 2019 at 02:26 PM.
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  #39  
Old July 5th, 2019, 12:56 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

@All Your Pie I like the powers you suggested above - and think the Inflame should add + attack and +3 move, but maybe with starting move of 6 (Vipers with Venoc warlord have more 9 move too, but maybe that is too fast). Not sure the No markers left condition is needed. I do like Heat Absorbtion as a way to get more markers - would provide synergy with Chandra or any other Fire attackers in your team and is cool and original mechanic that you would attack your own figures to buff them.

I still hate Elemetal as a species as I see them as Big Cats that are either from hell or had a hex/spell on them. Panthera seems generic enough to where eventual synergy with other big cats may arise. Ukushisa Pride was a good suggested name, although I think Fire/Flaming/Blazing to start the name sounds cooler. Wild personality seems perfect, for Class either Hunter or Devourer.
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  #40  
Old July 5th, 2019, 02:05 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

I agree it would seem wrong to make then anything other than Utgar

Elementals is still a no for me. Let's just make something up, like Blazecats or something. We should decide class and personality once we've determined how the unit plays, unless we're aiming for specific synergies. So far Hunters and Wild are good fits.

I like 3 Attack and +1 from blaze, and 6 Move +2 from blaze.

Option 1 is unnecessary. Running out of blaze markers is already a disadvantage.

I'm against option 2 in general. Without a recharge they are fine as a first-strike unit. Allowing another unit to recharge them makes for really cool unique synergy that allows for an alternate playstyle.

Extinguish is cool.

I love Heat Absorption. It's the most unique form of synergy I've seen in a while. It doesn't make either unit dependent on the other, but clever play with both can bring benefits. It should also apply to lava fields; it may up there cost a bit, but the once-per-round boost available from lava fields won't be a huge swing. Lava Resistance will affect their cost just as much, as it gives immunity to lava fields plus gives them the ability to cross lava.
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  #41  
Old July 5th, 2019, 03:10 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

I like the Ukushisa in the name. Ukushisa Hell Cats or Ukushisa Pride seems good. (I lean toward Hell Cats )

Agree that additional punishment for running out of markers seems unneeded.


Hard no from me on Extinguish


As for power 3, I'd prefer Lava Resistance mostly because I dislike the regen of markers. This particular version of regen (unless I am missing something) seems far too strong. It works with molten lava making it a possible multiple per turn regen and if played correctly on some maps you can park a unit on molten lava and never run out of markers.

What if we tweak Heat Adsorption in a way that they just get a buff for being on that space in addition to not being hurt by it? Possibly limiting it to the unit meeting the requirement itself so the best way to play them isn't to park one in a spot and attack with the other two (or is this what we want them to play like?)
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  #42  
Old July 5th, 2019, 03:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

I think the intent was that heat absorption actually not provide immunity or benefit from molten lava. In the wording I posted, thatís accomplished by specifying sources that donít ďwoundĒ figures with Lava Resistant, while Molten Lava is an auto-destroy. That being the case, their best option for marker regen is a 50% chance per cat thatís on lava field at the end of the round. That still could be good, but itís not guaranteed or explosive. Plus, as melee units, any turns they spend camping to regain their markers are probably not turns where they will be able to attack very profitably.

Still, the version that doesnít regen markers at all has its own merit. A squad that can have 8/1/4/5 stats for 3 chosen turns is pretty dangerous.

For Extinguish, I see the power more as flavor text and as a way to be consistent with official fire-based figures like the Fire Elemental that have downside powers for when they enter water. Thematically, I think itís a little difficult to justify not having one. All said, though, Extinguish is a pretty tame downside. Water on most maps can be crossed by double-based figures without them having to stop, and usually covers areas of the map where you wouldnít want to leave a figure anyway. The only exceptions are swamp maps, but even then I donít think the cats become unplayable. Fire Elementals have a much worse downside and still arenít considered all that map dependent.

If we do bring Extinguish and/or heat absorption into testing, rest assured that weíll be focusing on making sure neither power makes this into an entirely map-dependent unit. I agree that would be pretty frustrating and boring. Itís possible, though, for them to receive terrain advantages or disadvantages without it completely defining how they play. Inflame will always be their most important power, the other powers are mostly in service of giving them a little more depth and theme.
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  #43  
Old July 5th, 2019, 04:21 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

C3G 's The Book of Molten Lava Rules has Molten Lava wounding on a roll of 6-19 which is most of the time.


Do we intend for this to work with C3G?
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  #44  
Old July 5th, 2019, 04:28 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaur0n View Post
C3G 's The Book of Molten Lava Rules has Molten Lava wounding on a roll of 6-19 which is most of the time.


Do we intend for this to work with C3G?
Nope, C3G is itís own Superhero project that is more or less self-contained. Weíre angling for Classic and VC comparability here, which use standard molten lava rules.
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  #45  
Old July 6th, 2019, 03:33 PM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Color scheme doesn't 100% track general to general, but I think assigning these bright red burning cats to anyone but Utgar seems a little silly.

We've got a solid overall direction here but we're a little divided on the details. Here's some suggestions for what to put in the OP, let me know how these hit y'all.

(Unit name)
Utgar

Elementals (or some sort of made-up race? Sadly Arrow Gruts don't specify heroes for their bonding, so beasts is out of the question.)
Unique Squad
Hunters (mostly a placeholder. Seems a decent option but we can discuss others)
Wild (Feel a bit more solid about this than I do hunters, but still open to discussion)
Large ??

Life 1
Move ? (varies depending on inflame, between 5-8 )
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 5

Points ???

Power 1:
Inflame

Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add (move or attack buff). Optional condition 1: If there are no blaze counters on this army card, subtract X from this card's defense value. Optional condition 2: Something that allows blaze counters to be regained automatically.

(Personally, I like Inflame as a power that either just boosts attack or that grants a substantive move boost in addition to attack. If we do the movement boost, I would rather make it feel really significant by giving the cats base 5 move and having the move be +3 instead of +1. So I like having +3 move +1 attack, or just +1 attack and have a base move of 7 or 8.

I can take or leave optional condition 1. It's cute and adds some tension, but that's all. Optional condition 2 I don't personally care for. It adds another trigger and possibly a D20 roll to the power that overcomplicate it a little too much for my taste.)

Power 2:
Extinguish

Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water space, remove all blaze counters from this army card. (Blaze counters may not be placed on this army card while any of your (figure name's) are on water spaces.)

(Relatively straightforward, mostly flavor here. This power's actual implications depend significantly on how other powers work, so it's not worth discussion much in and of itself.)

Power 3:
Heat Absorption

If a (figure name) would receive one or more wounds from a source that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.

OR

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.

(Fairly simple choice here. I think heat absorption is kinda neat but won't come up too much in actual play. I worry slightly about it spiking their cost by making them much stronger on lava maps, which won't be present in this master set, but even then it's slow going to build their markers back up. Ultimately that's a good thing, as it means we can balance the design around them having just three markers to spend with Heat Absorption giving them a little more legs in longer games or scenarios rather than standard tournament play.)
I'm ambivalent on the name, though Hell Cats (Cursed Cats)
I like.

I like counters, and First Strike role of this squad.
Don't like the penalty if all counters used up.


Extinguish/Lava/Fire Recharge
Not in favor of this....

If lava came in the Arena of the Planewalker sets or original RotV I would be in favor of this (all counter/lava or lava resistant weapon recharge mechanic).

Since there are specials or attacks that are fire based but also affect lava resistant creatures it creates more complexity/rulings which is against the philosophy/spirit to keep things simple based what I've read so far...

Water weakness
I believe that making contact (moving) on water tiles forfeits the units ability to regain counters that turn.

Recharge should be random (d20) thing

Like lava resistance.
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  #46  
Old July 16th, 2019, 01:58 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UNIT NAME (Blazing Firecats) - Design

I've updated the OP. The version I chose is the one that I feel most addresses everyone's preferences here. It's also the simplest, most streamlined version--no way of regaining markers, no added conditions on Inflame beyond using the markers for a buff, and standard lava resistant instead of heat absorption. I kept Extinguish on the card as I feel confident that testing will show it to be not a particularly oppressive downside.

That said, I do want to take a beat and hear from the other pod members to make sure we're okay with the current setup. If I've left something on the cutting room floor that you want to fight for, now's the time for it.
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  #47  
Old July 16th, 2019, 03:53 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UKUSHIA PRIDE (Blazing Firecats) - Design

Just a little thing about size/height. They are the same height as marrden hounds (Large 4) and shorter than the Deathstalkers (Large 5) so should be Large 4. I am happy about this design overall.
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  #48  
Old July 16th, 2019, 10:53 AM
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Re: [Pod 1] UKUSHIA PRIDE (Blazing Firecats) - Design

I really like the idea of attacking them with a Fire/Flama/Lava attack to get more markers - this is a cool mechanic we have not seen yet and adds synergy to a lot of other figures in the game that need help on non-lava maps, including Chandra. How about adding the wording of Heat Absorption to Inflame. Also I suggest the Inflame add "for that turn" to wording as I didn't think we meant it to stack. Also just a fun addition to Extinguish is to add Ice as well as water, but maybe just have remove one marker, as then maybe strategically you might do it once for one figure, but loosing all 3 markers for one figure seems harsh. I know adding ice makes them even more map dependent (on terrain not in AotP), but seems more thematic, or maybe I just want to see them go up against Ice Elementals for fun

Inflame
Start the game with three blaze counters on this army card. Before moving, you may remove a blaze counter to add 2 to this card's move value and 1 to its attack value for that turn. Each time a (figure name) would receive one or more wounds from a source that does not affect figures with the Lava Resistant special power, ignore those wounds and, if possible, place a blaze counter on this army card.

Extinguish
Whenever a (figure name) ends its movement on a water or ice space, remove one blaze counter from this army card.

Lava Resistant
Same as usual.
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