The Book of Major Q10

[Fenmeister]

Originally Posted by killercactus

I know that, but what I'm saying is that in the long run, Q9 will probably get more wounds on even the higher defense heroes, because he'll shoot from farther away, and be around longer to do it.

You keep mentioning 2 things:
1) Q9's longer range
2) Using either major against multi-life heroes

Are you implying that you'd use these guys primarily against heroes? What happened to squads? Q10 gets 4 special attacks at range 7 attack 2, Q9 gets 9 distributed dice on special attacks of range 6. I don't think it's fair to completely ignore the fact that Q10 can out-range the 4th Mass./10th Reg./AG's etc. Q9 can't so they can stay put and get their respective bonus (WtF, Swogs, etc.) but Q10 seems a decent option to make them come to you, which is essential, at least when playing against the 4th Mass.

[Dysole]

According to Heroscape Matchup Calculator

Major Q9 vs. 3 squads of 4th with WTF and Valiant Defense.

81.961% of the time the 4th win.

Major Q10 vs. 3 squads of 4th without WTF but with Valiant Defense.

84.130% of the time the 4th win.

~Dysole quoting stats but leaving the interpretation up to you.

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by Fenmeister

You keep mentioning 2 things:
1) Q9's longer range
2) Using either major against multi-life heroes

Are you implying that you'd use these guys primarily against heroes? What happened to squads? Q10 gets 4 special attacks at range 7 attack 2, Q9 gets 9 distributed dice on special attacks of range 6. I don't think it's fair to completely ignore the fact that Q10 can out-range the 4th Mass./10th Reg./AG's etc. Q9 can't so they can stay put and get their respective bonus (WtF, Swogs, etc.) but Q10 seems a decent option to make them come to you, which is essential, at least when playing against the 4th Mass.

Absolutely not. Both Majors are two of the few heroes that really hold their own against squads.

There's a table a page or two back in this book comparing the damage output, suggesting that Q10 was better than Q9 against heroes. I disagreed because of his superior range on Queglix vs. Wrist Rocket, and his extra survivability.

Q10's ability to outrange WTF is very nice, and should not be discounted. However, it could be argued that 4 attacks 3 vs. 7 defense (a squad of 4th Mass using WTF against Q9) is better than 4 attacks of 2 vs. 5 defense (i.e., a squad of 4th Mass giving up WTF to attack Q10) for the defender, since you're adding .5 skulls and .67 shields to each attack/defense roll on average, and you don't have to give up your positioning. Couple that with Q9's superior attack against squads (3 attacks of 3 is probably the best, though Q9 can also do 4 attacks of 2 and an attack of 1) and he's probably the better pick against squads too, even WTF.

Of course, he costs 30 Points more.

EDIT: @ Dysole - I know you're just quoting stats, but that comparison is flawed unless you assume that all 12 4th Mass soldiers start the contest within 6 spaces of Q9, which I think is unlikely. Plus, Q10 has to keep backing up (probably off of high ground) to deny the Mass WTF.

[dok]

Dysole, Q9 isn't going to get WTF'ed very often by full squads of 4th Mass. Q9 can actually get a lot of mileage out of nibbling on the edge of a crowd of range 6 commons. This forces them to either move forward or attack with less than a full squad.

Moreover, let's not forget that 333 does more damage against squad figures with a defense of 3 or more than 2222 does. And against anything with lower ranged defense than 3, Q9's attack can be broken down to 22221 or 111111111, and can also kill more squaddies on average than machine pistol.

That said, machine pistol's 7 range is a nice perk against squads, for sure.

[Dysole]

kc and dok, I recognized that if Q9 is getting WTFed by a bunch of 4th someone is seriously playing him wrong. What I find entertaining is that even when Q9 is played horribly wrong against the 4th he does better than Q10.

~Dysole, who always take stats with a grain of salt

[Elven Lord]

Q9 also has more defense and the same Life. So even if he is played wrong he is still better than Q10 because of his higher defense.

[Fenmeister]

Originally Posted by Dysole

kc and dok, I recognized that if Q9 is getting WTFed by a bunch of 4th someone is seriously playing him wrong. What I find entertaining is that even when Q9 is played horribly wrong against the 4th he does better than Q10.

~Dysole, who always take stats with a grain of salt

And I find it amusing that if you play the majors incorrectly against the 4th mass. 30 more points gets you only an increase of 2.169 to your win chance. It seems like that 7 range helps out Q10 a bit even if he loses some defense.

Remember, Q9 costs 30 points more than Q10!

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by Fenmeister

And I find it amusing that if you play the majors incorrectly against the 4th mass. 30 more points gets you only an increase of 2.169 to your win chance. It seems like that 7 range helps out Q10 a bit even if he loses some defense.

Remember, Q9 costs 30 points more than Q10!

Originally Posted by killercactus

EDIT: @ Dysole - I know you're just quoting stats, but that comparison is flawed unless you assume that all 12 4th Mass soldiers start the contest within 6 spaces of Q9, which I think is unlikely. Plus, Q10 has to keep backing up (probably off of high ground) to deny the Mass WTF.

That analysis makes Q9's situation seem far worse. It assumes that Q9 charges into a cluster of 12 4TH MASS, ALL OF WHICH ARE IN RANGE OF WTF, AND THEN STAYS THERE. That situation is highly unlikely to happen.

What's more likely is that Q9 puts himself in range of 4-6 Mass, and then kills some of them. Now the Mass player has to choose if he moves up reserves to get 4 attacks of 2, or if he doesn't and gets WTF, but maybe not all 4 attacks. Remember, if the Mass move just one guy, they all lose WTF, and as long as Q9 is always shooting back, they're not going to have 4 WTF attacks very often anyway.

[yamissflash]

Originally Posted by Dysole

According to Heroscape Matchup Calculator

Major Q9 vs. 3 squads of 4th with WTF and Valiant Defense. If possible, you should probably have 2.5x 4th

81.961% of the time the 4th win.

Major Q10 vs. 3 squads of 4th without WTF but with Valiant Defense. You probably should have only 2x 4th for closer points. Or maybe, 2.25 4th.

84.130% of the time the 4th win.

~Dysole quoting stats but leaving the interpretation up to you.<Nice

my comments in orange

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Fenmeister

And I find it amusing that if you play the majors incorrectly against the 4th mass. 30 more points gets you only an increase of 2.169 to your win chance. It seems like that 7 range helps out Q10 a bit even if he loses some defense.

Remember, Q9 costs 30 points more than Q10!

What kc said. Q10 is actually being played very much correctly while Q9 is being played horribly in my analysis. Speaking of analyses

Originally Posted by yamissflash

my comments in orange

Ask and ye shall receive.

~Dysole, having way too much fun with the matchup calculator

[Simpsons Scaper]

Is that against 2 or 2.25 squads of 4th mass?

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Simpsons Scaper

Is that against 2 or 2.25 squads of 4th mass?

9/4 squads.

~Dysole converting stuff for kicks