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View Poll Results: Why do you accept the proposition that a deity exists?
I know God through reason, science, etc. 3 7.89%
I accept God through belief or personal revelation 11 28.95%
Other 12 31.58%
I am an atheist but want to vote in this poll because polls are dope 12 31.58%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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  #169  
Old August 21st, 2018, 09:03 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

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Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Not sure why Christians get the bad rep on homosexuality as compared to everyone else. I'd much rather be homosexual here, today than most other places here on Earth now and than almost anywhere else anytime else in the history of the world. I could argue it is the underlying compassion of Christianity which has made societies with Christian backgrounds so open to accepting people regardless of things like sexual orientation.
Homosexuals have been serving openly in the Israeli military for years. Years and years. One of the most active and hardened militaries in the world, and homosexuals are welcome in it. Unlike, you know, here.

Thank goodness for the Christian compassion of those Israelis!

edit: Feel free to compare notes for yourself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual...3%E2%80%932011
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_r...litary_service

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  #170  
Old August 21st, 2018, 09:26 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Yup, there are homosexuals openly serving in the Israeli military. I think I'm missing the part where this is in some way a contradiction of anything I've said.

~Aldin, who could point at multiple societies and times throughout history where homosexuality was accepted without in any way invalidating the dual points that the USA today is in the top tier of places and times throughout history in which to be openly gay and that the majority of countries today that are the most openly accepting of homosexuality are ones which had heavy Christian influence over the past couple of centuries

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  #171  
Old August 21st, 2018, 09:41 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

People can read my post and yours and decide for themselves what they think about how the two are related.

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  #172  
Old August 21st, 2018, 10:54 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Just read through this thread. I agree with Aldin (as I usually do with religious topics). It's been a mostly civil conversation, too, which I appreciate.

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  #173  
Old August 21st, 2018, 11:48 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
So what is the criteria to go to Heaven?
It sounds like you have to at least know about God and try to love him and all things?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I still to not get how everyone throughout time has had an opportunity to have a relationship with God and in your original response you say you do not know so I am not sure how you can make that statement. Because of the Bible?
A book you say was written by unknown people at an unknown time but is accepted as the word of God.
As I said before I find it unreasonable that a being powerful enough to create everything was only able to let themselves be known in a small geographic location on Earth.
Did he not speak with Moses? So he could not speak to native Americans?
Why not let himself be known to all?

And your answer? I do not know.
My personal theory is that it all went down a lot different then we are being told.

I do not think God is unfair. How can he be? I think humans have twisted the belief of God in their own way, mostly in pursuit of power and control over their fellow man.
Much like the Boy Scouts, I respect the mission and agree with most of the principles, I just question the way it has been executed by the those who have placed themselves in power.

Keep the faith Aldin. I respect your devotion and appreciate the conversations always.

I'd love to join in on this conversation.

There are answers to these questions that you've asked, and I think it's awesome that you're asking questions and searching. I would say one of the most important things to know about asking questions is found in the Bible in James 1:5-6, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith..."

I believe that God is the source of all truth, and that He does want to reveal truth to all of His children as you suggested in your post. God is perfectly just, and it would be unfair of God to not provide some sort of way for all of His children to receive what He desires for them - the opportunity to be saved. Because God desires the salvation of His children, He sent His Son to take upon Himself our sins. Through Christ is the only way that salvation is possible.

As you suggested in your question, I believe that God tries to speak to as many of His children as will listen. The Bible demonstrates the pattern of how He tries to speak to His children - He calls prophets to declare His truths to those who will listen. These prophets taught that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved. They spoke, as inspired by God, truths that would help God's children know what they needed to do in order to find happiness in this life, and eternal life in the next. It is through listening to the words of prophets that we can know how to follow Jesus Christ and make it back to God, our Heavenly Father, and receive the blessings of salvation.

I don't believe that God only spoke or tried to speak to a certain group of people living at one time - as you pointed out, that would seem unjust. That's part of the reason that I believe in other books of scripture in addition to the Bible. You may have heard of a book I believe in called the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is evidence that God loves all of His children and that He wants to speak to all of them. It is like the Bible in that it contains the writings of prophets and it provides a confirming witness of Biblical teachings about Christ and His gospel. And interestingly enough (considering one of your questions), it takes place primarily in the ancient Americas.

Here's a link to one of my favorite chapters from the Book of Mormon. The whole chapter is all about how to follow Christ, and what we need to do in order to be saved.

I would just emphasize that God makes Himself known to those who desire to come to know Him, and that He does love all of us - His children. Coming back to the scripture I shared earlier. God wants to give knowledge and guidance to His children and He will do so liberally for those who ask with a desire to know His will and demonstrate a willingness to do His will.

I'd love any other responses or questions.

A great place to get more answers.

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  #174  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 12:33 AM
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Starting From the Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I got a quick line of questions for you Aldin.
Did Jesus teach from the Bible?
If so it was obviously the Old Testament correct?
If that is the case, then why is the New Testament even necessary? I mean if the Old was good enough for Jesus and his followers went to Heaven what is the point of the New Testament and who exactly decided that it is the word of God?

What purpose does the Church provide if one can go to Heaven without attending Church or is that not possible? Is Church the gateway to Heaven?
Figured since my thought processes might produce different questions, it made the most sense to start here.

It wouldn't have been called the Bible. It would've been called the Tanakh or something similar, but Jesus did many teaching which as Aldin already stated often flew in the faces of ways they'd been interpreted for some time. He also often weighed in on rabbinical disputes. (one that comes to mind is the Pharisee's question of the woman who had seven husbands die one after the other and who is her husband at the resurrection)

For me, the Bible is primarily a story between God and humanity. While it has utility and while I think it is true in what it claims (to quote a pastor friend of mine, that's not as readily apparent as it may seem), but there's also a lot that reads with its authors' biases and worldviews baked into the text and so it also needs to be read with that in mind. At its core though, it is to me a story about God and Their relationship with humanity (I use gender neutral pronouns for God for my own tangential reasons)

So the New Testament is a continuation of that story started in the Old Testament. As Aldin stated, Nicea is where a lot of things were formalized, but it was mostly taking the stuff that was already in use as Scripture. There's still some disagreements on what is canon, but the Protestants and the Catholics both have their canons pretty well solidified and I don't see anything being added to or taken from it. Although, I will note that if I'm remembering right, the concept of inerrantism (or at least a particular branch of it) might be a more recent development. I'd have to actually look that up.

I'm not completely sure "getting to Heaven" is the goal of Christianity and a good portion of me thinks Heaven might be more akin to the Buddhist nirvana than a physical location. I particularly like the Rob Bell quote that we are "either bringing Heaven or Hell to earth every day". Anyways, I actually tend to kind of shy away from it myself because a lot of proselytizing today comes off to me like "BUY PRODUCT JESUS! LIMITED TIME OFFER! ORDER NOW! SAVES YOU FROM DAMNATION! LIFE IMPROVEMENT INCLUDED!". Even if parts of that are true, I feel that we as believers have lost something important to the Gospel when we focus too much on what comes after rather than what is here and now and I worry that our consumerist culture has dipped rather deeply into our Christianity in America.

The Church with a capital C is the collection of believers globally. As I see it, this collection of believers is supposed to represent Christ. Metaphors often used are that we are the hands and feet of Jesus since there's not a corporeal Jesus any more.

Aldin talked about some of the more salvific parts of Heaven and whatnot, although I have come across some interesting things talking about some of the problems of penal substitution theology. It's fascinating and I tend to find myself less certain about more doctrinal things (what is salvation and what does it look like and who is saved?) and more focused on tangible things (what can I do at this moment to make the world more like the Kingdom of Heaven?). Different lenses I guess.

I will chime in briefly on the homosexuality thing as a gay trans Christian. The reason Christianity is getting a bad rap right now is that there is a large vocal contingent of Christianity in America who seem hellbent on making gay people's lives hell and plenty of them think they are being very moral people while doing so. I have way too many stories of people who have had churches and Christians hurt them in very bad ways all while presuming they are doing the correct thing. I am myself very circumspect when dealing with an unknown person who I know is a Christian and am very careful as to how much I reveal to them. While I would gladly live in the deep South much more than Russia or Iran, I think many of these Christians don't realize that they aren't as many rungs up the ladder from those places in the eyes of many LGBT people. I think American Christianity as a whole needs to look at itself if they understand that many LGBT people do not see love from them, but hate.

~Dysole, who admittedly fits best under what's probably called the Progressive Christian label, but even that doesn't fit as nicely as she'd like
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  #175  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 10:32 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

I appreciate the perspective and insight Dysole. Thank you.

Flash 19 you stated
Quote:
I would just emphasize that God makes Himself known to those who desire to come to know Him,
.
So Africans, native Americans (North and South), Aboriginal people and I could go on and on, did not want to know God, had no desire for salvation?

I completely dismiss the notion that a being able to create the entire universe is somehow hamstrung by geography. No one has ever given me an acceptable reason why God chose to appear to only certain people in a small area of the world. Does God lack the power? Could God not have a prophet at the very least, on every continent?
Was it just an oversight? Or perhaps we are not getting the whole story and maybe just maybe the Bible may not have all the answers?

Who decides who a prophet is? If God appears to me and instructs me to write the true Bible, will people listen to what I say as the truth or will I be labeled as insane?
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  #176  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 11:40 AM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Always fascinating to hear different perspectives on issues like this. I think this is the first time I've seen one of our LDS 'Scapers in one of these threads.


and....... back to lurking.

Last edited by superfrog; August 22nd, 2018 at 11:40 AM. Reason: I probably agree most with Aldin, then Dysole.
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  #177  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 01:30 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

LDS?
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  #178  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 01:39 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Popularly called Mormons, although they often ask for people not to use that term, which I try to respect.
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  #179  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 02:05 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Always fascinating to hear different perspectives on issues like this. I think this is the first time I've seen one of our LDS 'Scapers in one of these threads.


and....... back to lurking.
I thought we'd already settled that you are supposed to agree with me, when I post. I had *thought* we settled that issue some time ago.

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  #180  
Old August 22nd, 2018, 05:17 PM
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Re: Food for Thought: A Discourse on Deities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I appreciate the perspective and insight Dysole. Thank you.

Flash 19 you stated
Quote:
I would just emphasize that God makes Himself known to those who desire to come to know Him,
.
So Africans, native Americans (North and South), Aboriginal people and I could go on and on, did not want to know God, had no desire for salvation?

I completely dismiss the notion that a being able to create the entire universe is somehow hamstrung by geography. No one has ever given me an acceptable reason why God chose to appear to only certain people in a small area of the world. Does God lack the power? Could God not have a prophet at the very least, on every continent?
Was it just an oversight? Or perhaps we are not getting the whole story and maybe just maybe the Bible may not have all the answers?

Who decides who a prophet is? If God appears to me and instructs me to write the true Bible, will people listen to what I say as the truth or will I be labeled as insane?
Great questions. Let me clarify a bit.

To add a bit more context to that statement of mine you quoted: As I mentioned before, God would be unjust if only the people who had the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ in this life had the opportunity for salvation. I don't believe for a second that God loves only some of His children, and that He would condemn someone for never having the opportunity in this life to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. Certainly God knew that not all of His children would have the opportunity to hear about Christ in this life. Having said that, I believe that God still reveals truth to His children where ever they are in the world as they turn to Him for truth. I look at different religions from different places across the world, and I see true principles - teachings that were certainly inspired of God. But without the message of Christ and His gospel, those pieces of truth are just a few pieces of the puzzle.

So what does that mean for the potentially billions of people who never had the opportunity to hear about Christ in this life? Well, simply put, they have an opportunity in the next life to hear and accept the message. I don't believe that death is the end, and I don't believe that once death occurs, every person who hadn't accepted Christ is lost forever. This doctrine is referenced in the Bible in 1 Peter. 1 Peter 3:19 references the gospel being preached to "spirits in prison" and 1 Peter 4:6 describes how "the gospel [was] preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." The gospel is preached to those who are dead so that they have an opportunity to receive the same blessings (salvation) as those who heard the message and accepted it while they were living. There's a whole lot more I could share about that if you're interested.

God does not lack power, and He has appeared to His children all over the world. While the Book of Mormon and the Bible contain accounts of this, I think there are many other instances where this happened of which we don't have record. One of the highlights of the Book of Mormon is when Christ Himself appears to the people living in the Americas. He taught them His gospel and ministered to them just as He did to those in the area around Jerusalem during His mortal ministry. A number of chapters in the Book of Mormon are dedicated to the things He taught the people when He appeared to them. Christ specifically tells the people that there are others that He must go minister to and teach. You can read about it here (see verses 1-3) and here (see verse 4). The Bible and the Book of Mormon together provide evidence that God had prophets on at least a couple continents, and that He wants all of His children to know truth.

As you suggested, there have been pieces of the puzzle that were missing - people weren't getting the full story. I believe that there is a prophet of God on the earth today - and just like the prophets of old, he has been called of God and given authority by God. That is the mark of a true prophet - He is called and chosen by God. I believe we need a prophet on the earth today just as much as the people who lived in Biblical times because God wants us to know the full story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
Always fascinating to hear different perspectives on issues like this. I think this is the first time I've seen one of our LDS 'Scapers in one of these threads.


and....... back to lurking.
Interesting. I only recently came across this thread. I think it's awesome, and I really appreciate how respectful people seem to be - it's great to see people of varying beliefs having a respectful conversation with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Popularly called Mormons, although they often ask for people not to use that term, which I try to respect.
Thanks for being so respectful! While I'm not offended to be called a Mormon, I think the term has caused people to wonder if we really are Christian. Thus, we prefer to be referred to as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Also, I've heard of individuals referring to themselves as Mormons who are actually not affiliated with the Church and have different beliefs.

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