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  #109  
Old December 3rd, 2018, 06:18 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

After updating my Tier List got me thinking a lot about units and here are some of my 2 cents on some units in your list. There's a lot of units that I think are one place up or down in regard to your respective ranking, but I don't want to nitpick and list a million units. if it's just one spot away from where I think it is, it's not a huge deal. But here are some that I think are several spots in different placements if I were ranking in your list:

(obviously we disagree on Laglor, and you know my feelings on the Hive)

Deathwalker 8K/Deathwalker 9K: C- ->B- or B. Deathwalkers aren't really that bad of figures and are actually pretty good with rats and other screens. Deathwalker 9K and Trons isn't horrible, either. Not great but way better than C- I'd say.

Dzu-Teh: C- -> B-. They're never played because HSB are just better, but the Dzu Teh actually have decent stats for their cost, regardless that their abilities all revolve around TT. And if you happen to land on a TT map they're good. At least a C+ unit.

Brandis Skyhunter: C+ -> D or F (other things should be F, too, like Pelloth, imo). This unit's horrible, one of the worst in the game in my opinion. Basically just a slightly better Pelloth. He was meant to be a Raelin assassin, but with 5 range he won't do anything to her. In flying matchups he's slightly more usable, but, you could say that on Dungeon maps Pelloth is more usable. And how often do you face a swarm of Valkyrie or Wyrmlings? Wyrmlings are the more plausible case but still a 5 ranged single attack of 3 hero for 90 points? His other ability is extremely rare, might as well not be there. I think that's really really bad.

Sir Dupuis: C+ -> B. I think he's a lot better and more usable with PK's. Not a bad thing to have an 8 move figure that can swing with 7 or even 8 dice at your disposal, despite him being 150. Maybe B is too high but I think C+ is certainly too low.

Erevan Sunshadow: C+ -> C- or D. Just a bad figure that doesn't do anything. He has neat abilities but the SA is basically best as just a single attack of 4. Fey Step doesn't really reward you with anything. All in all he's a 2/2 5-life that has a single attack of 4 at 5 range for 80pt.

Jotun: C -> B-. Personally I think Jotun isn't unusable like a lot of people think but I understand why he typically gets ranked so low. He has a lot against him for 225pt. But, he has 8 attack and 4 def with 7 life, a SA that can hit more than one thing, and Throw. I think he's quite usable with rats, or PK's, or even potentially other things like Cutters or Dividers. At least a C+...personally I think B-.

Master Win Chiu Woo: C+ -> C-. He works with Monks, which are bad enough. If you want to use the Monks and have a shot at winning, you don't have the points for him. If you want to use Master Woo, you don't have the points for Monks, he's better off as just a beatstick hero for 140. And I think that's about a C-.

Pelloth: C -> F. Already talked about Brandis, and he's a worse version of him. Personally I think Deathwalker 7k has more uses than a few other figures, but he's obviously really bad as well...I think Pelloth should join the lowest tier too. I also think Shiori, Obsidians, Groks, and Brandis belong in the lowest tier. But the lowest tier is kind of both D/F with how things are listed and this list is calibrated, so yeah, I'd drop Pelloth to F or D.

Feral Troll: B- -> C-/D. He gets eaten alive by squads and honestly I don't think I'd bet on him vs a lot of heroes. I just don't see very many situations where you want him and to spend a bunch of order markers regenerating with him. Would be a pretty fun hero if he cost less, but 90pt. makes him a terrible figure.

Werewolf Lord: B- -> C-/C. Abilities only work against heroes and it's hard to coordinate to use it effectively. It will rarely happen where his abilities will be effective. Too expensive to play with Wolves of Badru (also too expensive) and vice versa if you're looking to win, kind of the same thing with Master Woo and the Monks, like I said. (same with Kiova and IE haha)

Water Elemental: B+ -> B-. I feel like if you're going to run Kurrok and Elementals, you should run Firestorm. Not a bad figure but is it worth it over another/more Fire(s) (assuming you have the points)? Maybe B but I think B+ is too high, it's definitely not on the same level as the Fire.

Emirroon: B -> C+. If you're going to run Elf Wizards, you have to spend the 80pt. on Raelin, or at least on other things to compensate your weaknesses like rats x2. I think in 500pt.-600pt. settings, Emirroon is never the way to go. Maybe in much higher point games he can be added, but I think his benefit isn't a necessity and the points you desperately need for something else.

Also think Mimring, Taelord, Su-Bak-Na, and Shurrak are too low at B-, each of which I could see an argument for as high as B+, but most are probably B. Because I said I wasn't going to list anything that was only 1 spot away from where I would move them I didn't list them, but these 4 stood out to me, especially Mimring. Felt it was worth mentioning.

Master of the Hunt and Tul-Bak-Ra also seem to low at C+. Master of the Hunt is actually a decent hero to run with your squads and to answer strong heroes you're worried about. TBR isn't bad with Dividers, it's nice having your Dividing board control spread out even more. But, not sure if they're higher than a B-, so I'm just mentioning them at the end here.

All in all it's pretty good.

Last edited by Cleon; December 3rd, 2018 at 06:44 AM.
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  #110  
Old December 5th, 2018, 04:14 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

What are everyone's thoughts on Venoc Vipers? We've both got them at B+, and on my old list I actually had them above Arrows and Blades! I lost to Megasilver once with a tron army, where he killed ~10 glads in the space of 2 order markers. They made a few apperances in day two of some of the RtW years and those players went deep.

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(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #111  
Old December 5th, 2018, 05:56 PM
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Frenzy

I love vippers so much, but they're too high variance for me to have run in the events I play at Gencon. I think B+ is fine. They're always going to be held back by MRSAs but they can murderate so much. (Killing Hulk is one of my favorites also the time I got 6 frenzies in a row to start the game; ir_beej was such a good sport about that)

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  #112  
Old December 5th, 2018, 08:10 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on Venoc Vipers? We've both got them at B+, and on my old list I actually had them above Arrows and Blades! I lost to Megasilver once with a tron army, where he killed ~10 glads in the space of 2 order markers. They made a few apperances in day two of some of the RtW years and those players went deep.
Yeah, I think B+ is about right for Venocs. Maxing threat range on them helps even out the fact that they have 0 defense, and Frenzy is good, but variance keeps them in check.
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  #113  
Old December 7th, 2018, 11:46 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on Venoc Vipers? We've both got them at B+, and on my old list I actually had them above Arrows and Blades! I lost to Megasilver once with a tron army, where he killed ~10 glads in the space of 2 order markers. They made a few apperances in day two of some of the RtW years and those players went deep.
They're a tad hard to rate. I think they can do wonders in most matchups for their 40pt. but there are a few matchups that are terribly bad. They're a decent range squad counter too. Most of the time they're probably B+, but they lose so hard to Q9 and Q10, and some more scarce matchups too - DW8K, Kato+Ashigaru, Aubriens, White Wyrmlings - so it's difficult. Drones and Mimring could also be very troublesome, too, come to think of it. Mostly I just think about Q9 and Q10 though, because that's what you see. For this, I can see the argument for B.

I don't know, I feel like their power is between B and B+. I'm cool with either.

I faced Mega's vipers with Zelrig not too long ago (well, a few years ago haha), and my Zelrig did a ridiculous amount of damage. I don't think his initial Frenzy rolls were successful, but that's the ability - it has only a 25% success rate. Most of the time you don't hit it and you need to hit it early into Zelrig.
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  #114  
Old January 5th, 2019, 12:18 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

The fewer venocs you have the crappier they become.

IMO, the trend to fewer fig count armies have devalued them from the older assessment. I don’t view them as B+ in 20 hex or less events.

A must read for all 'Scapers!

Last edited by R˙chean; January 5th, 2019 at 12:19 PM. Reason: If I can’t put 6 to 7 sets out there I ain’t playing em
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  #115  
Old January 11th, 2019, 12:10 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

I think in order for the vipers to work well, you need 5 squads of them. Otherwise they just fall too fast.
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  #116  
Old July 20th, 2019, 07:40 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on Venoc Vipers? We've both got them at B+, and on my old list I actually had them above Arrows and Blades! I lost to Megasilver once with a tron army, where he killed ~10 glads in the space of 2 order markers. They made a few apperances in day two of some of the RtW years and those players went deep.
Yeah, I think B+ is about right for Venocs. Maxing threat range on them helps even out the fact that they have 0 defense, and Frenzy is good, but variance keeps them in check.
@OrcElfArmyOne

Great list! Any chance we can get your descriptions for the rest of the characters in the original post?
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  #117  
Old July 20th, 2019, 10:39 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on Venoc Vipers? We've both got them at B+, and on my old list I actually had them above Arrows and Blades! I lost to Megasilver once with a tron army, where he killed ~10 glads in the space of 2 order markers. They made a few apperances in day two of some of the RtW years and those players went deep.
Yeah, I think B+ is about right for Venocs. Maxing threat range on them helps even out the fact that they have 0 defense, and Frenzy is good, but variance keeps them in check.
@OrcElfArmyOne

Great list! Any chance we can get your descriptions for the rest of the characters in the original post?
Thanks! I plan on continuing again in a few weeks after GenCon once I have some time.
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  #118  
Old July 20th, 2019, 11:35 AM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
What are everyone's thoughts on Venoc Vipers? We've both got them at B+, and on my old list I actually had them above Arrows and Blades! I lost to Megasilver once with a tron army, where he killed ~10 glads in the space of 2 order markers. They made a few apperances in day two of some of the RtW years and those players went deep.
Yeah, I think B+ is about right for Venocs. Maxing threat range on them helps even out the fact that they have 0 defense, and Frenzy is good, but variance keeps them in check.
@OrcElfArmyOne


Great list! Any chance we can get your descriptions for the rest of the characters in the original post?
Thanks! I plan on continuing again in a few weeks after GenCon once I have some time.
Thanks! Looking forward to it.

Also, something that you may want to consider which would, admittedly, probably be a major undertaking and somewhat controversial, would be to use the full grading scale when reviewing figures. I see that your introduced the S scale for the top figures which is commonly used in the fighting game scene to really give the most accurate ratings as possible.

As I was reading this thread, I'm seeing people refer to things as "strong B+" or "weak A-." Because those separate classifies are not reflected in the original rating, I think you should instead simply move them up or down a class so they are no longer a "strong or weak" anything.

This would of course, cause some figures to be in classes that do not reflect their true power which is why I recommend using the additional S class ratings. As an example that would mean that some figures that were A+ would now be S and so on. It's just a great way to really show where figures are on the true power scale.

Just my two cents.
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  #119  
Old Yesterday, 02:31 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

@OrcElfArmyOne is absolutely correct with his B rating for Fyorlag Spiders and I would argue they could very well be a B+ squad in Heat of Battle maps and an A- squad in Heat of Battle Jungle maps. At only 40 points for 3 figures, you should be fielding x4 squads in game.

Here's why:

1. They are the quintessential Order Marker 1 figures. Starting with their Move of 7, they can quickly gain height advantage at the start of the game and possibly surround a figure to attempt their Entangling Web. With the possibility of removing an order marker from a common squad that was attempting to bond at the start of the round (increasing your chances of avoiding an X), your opponent will have to be worried about loading up a single common squad with order markers.

2. Their stats are extremely deceptive. There was a belief that they were the only figures included with a terrain expansion that did not bond with the included terrain. I feel this thought was incorrect because with their fast movement, they should be either encircling an adversary or fleeing to the jungle. Against ranged opponents, the jungle's +1 defense means at the very least your rolling 3 defense dice. Given their fast movement however, you'll most likely be rolling 4 defense dice with height advantage. This makes them pretty tough to kill and a waste of an attack if your ranged attack is weak.

This means that a counter strategy would be to engage in a melee battle with them which would make your opponent more susceptible to Entangling Web.

Their attack also will benefit since you should be always at a height advantage for at least 2 of your figures when encircling your opponent giving you 3 dice to attack with. Their movement of 7, 3 attack, 3-4 defense coupled with their special abilities make them an extremely potent squad for only 40 points.

3. All of this along with a bonding capability with another misunderstood figure named Sujoah makes their potential lethal. It was believed that the spiders could not keep up with Sujoah but this is simply not true if you are playing Sujoah correctly. With 7 move, the spiders should be setting up a screen against your opponent while Sujoah stays at least 7 spaces away in saftey. The moment the spiders have isolated a hero unit, Sujoah should swoop in and attempt to kill the hero. Depending on the success of the attack, on the next order marker, Sujoah should be staying to finish the job (if the hero is almost dead) along with the spiders who should encircle Sujoah and the hero, or leaving and taking a passing swipe before the hero can kill Sujoah. That 8 move and 6 life makes him hard to finish off. Sujoah is always a strike first hero. Think of an annoying mosquito.

Now, with Entangling Web, should the spiders remove an order marker on a squad that was going to bond with the hero you are focusing on, Sujoah now has a chance to stay and attack the hero without dealing with a counter strike. Deadly!

I think part of the misconception about the spiders is that few people probably owned more than 2 squads of spiders missing the exciting potential they have. I would say at minimum you should be fielding x4 squads of spiders so that Entangling Web is always a threat. Especially in Heat of Battle maps where the spiders can be strategically positioned to immediately start the game with their special attack.

Playing a little theoryscape for a moment, if you were to bring in x7 or x8 squads of spiders (assuming you have enough room in the start zone), it is highly likely that after the second round, you are rolling for Entangling Web 3 times a round which could potentially lock your opponent down for most of the game.

I highly recommend you proxy these guys and field them to see for yourself... especially on jungle maps.

Last night, they tore into the KoW my wife was fielding and removed 2 order markers during the match. That was enough to always have a figure advantage.

Last edited by SuperSamyon; Yesterday at 02:59 PM.
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