Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I like the one of each approach, kind of like Star-Lords builds where you have to diversify. I could see a Cyborg figure that then brought in a second Champion so you could run WW & Superman at the same time. Actually I could see giving the same exact power to Cyborg, then you can run a team of up to 8 JL members with either MM or Cyborg being the hub, or have both Cyborg & MM in the same army along with Superman & WW, Hawkgirl & Hawkman, Batman & Black Canary, Atom & Flash (Hal), etc.

Check my post above you where I listed some ideas. I was thinking the same thing. Not sure if you saw it before or after the edit, but I threw in the ability for Cyborg to choose a Champion or Warrior Hero, making them a League Member.

This way, you can have both Superman and Wonder Woman, or both Hawkman and Hawkgirl. We could even change it to where he can choose one of each of those 2 classes(they are the 2 with the most). So I think it really works. If you want to run just him, it gives him a decent amount of options for his Coordinated Attack. If you want to add him with the main group, it adds in that extra.

[Yodaking]

We could still create a JL communicator utility glyph for Batman that worked with all League Members instead of figures with JLA markers.

You really like the idea of starting with all those different 0-level tiles. I'm not sure I see the point of the ice & lava ones though. The Water tile helps Aquaman and the Shadow tile would help Batman II (as well as Black Panther). I suppose you could have WW lasso a figure and pull them onto a Lava tile but that doesn't seem very much like the JL to me. Ice I can't think of any use for.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

We could still create a JL communicator utility glyph for Batman that worked with all League Members instead of figures with JLA markers.

You really like the idea of starting with all those different 0-level tiles. I'm not sure I see the point of the ice & lava ones though. The Water tile helps Aquaman and the Shadow tile would help Batman II (as well as Black Panther). I suppose you could have WW lasso a figure and pull them onto a Lava tile but that doesn't seem very much like the JL to me. Ice I can't think of any use for.

Here's the Justice League characters I had in mind:

Water: Aquaman I, Aquaman II

Lava: Fire, Firestorm

Ice: Ice

Shadow: Batman II, Obsidian

Granted, with this direction, it'd really just benefit Aquaman I & II and Batman II, not counting any other figures under the umbrella I haven't considered. I often pair Aquaman I with Hydro-Man or Tempest, so it'd be nice to have someone within the synergy offering him the benefit of water, and some shadow for Batman couldn't hurt. So perhaps a different approach is better for that power, or a different one altogether. I just posted what I was thinking, but Fate will definitely need some brainstorming. If we want to go the tile route, doing 2 water and 2 shadow could be more useful.

I'll post a couple other power ideas I have for him.

[Arkham]

Doctor Fate:

DIVINE EMPOWERMENT
At the start of the round, you may immediately roll 1 combat die.

• If you roll a skull, add 1 to Doctor Fate's attack this round.
• If you roll a shield, add 1 to Doctor Fate's defense this round, and he is never attacked when leaving an engagement this round.
• If you roll a blank, you may remove 1 Wound Marker from this card or the Army Card of a Unique Hero adjacent to Doctor Fate.

HEROIC RESURRECTION
Before placing Order Markers for any round, if Doctor Fate is unengaged, you may choose any previously destroyed League Member you control and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 18 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from the chosen Hero’s Army Card and place the chosen Hero on any empty space adjacent to Doctor Fate. This special may only be used to place one League Member per game.

MAGICAL DEFENSE
When Doctor Fate is attacked by an opponent's figure that does not have the Magical Defense special power, the most wounds Doctor Fate can take for this attack is one.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

[Tornado]

Punisher is licking his chops in anticipation of more Vigilante synergy.
"The rich get richer."

Someone needs to look at those proposed class synergies and check them against the unreleased and in development designs and then express any concerns without 'spilling the beans' on what is actually on those cards.

Keep up the good work. If anything this an excellent exercise in work shopping and I think everyone will be a better designer for it.

Now I am off to work on Judge Dredd II, III, IV & V.

[IAmBatman]

The active posters here have done an excellent job of ignoring the below post, but I'm going to use it as an excuse to make sure we don't see any more like it:

Originally Posted by laughing matter

Or we could make it a Marker system, leave it completely open, and see how that goes. I'm more of an all or nothing guy, so the Markers appeal to me most. I really want to be able to be able to use the original lineup of the League, and that power doesn't really do that very well.

At this point, this thread has a clearly stated purpose and direction: we are exploring each of the three main ideas of class synergy, marker synergy, and glyph synergy one-at-a-time, until each has been explored to its fullest and the best possible version of it has been sussed out for candidacy.

The class synergy discussion has been useful and productive. We have done well so far to work towards a viable option. This conversation is likely nearing its end but it is not there yet. When it has fully run its course the thread will move on, to a discussion of either marker-based or glyph-based synergy. There is no hurry. The only time table in this thread is long enough to do it right.

What we will not do in this thread from this post onward is:

1. Argue for our preferred synergy out of turn. When we're discussing class synergy, arguments for other synergies are off-topic, and vice versa.

2. Make posts about the style in which other posters are posting. If things are going too fast or too slow or if someone said something that made you feel butthurt, take it to pm to resolve. In this thread it is off-topic. If I'm not already involved and a pm is not resolving your issue, pm me to catch me up and I WILL resolve it.

Going forward from this post, off-topic posts, including any in response to, congratulating, or arguing against this very post WILL be deleted by me or a moderator, or will be edited to remove the off-topic portions.

This thread is currently going well and is very productive. I will not tolerate seeing it devolve to bickering and talking in circles again.

I have given everyone in this thread a long leash so far, including myself, but that ends here. I know around here I'm just one of the guys and I certainly have my own quirks that make me difficult at times, but I have also been vested with the authority of an admin and I will not hesitate to use it to keep this thread going in the right direction, with the proper attitude.

Now back to the topic of the thread.

[IAmBatman]

Some great design stuff here, Sock and Yoda! I think we've really got a clear direction here and should just chip away the remaining pieces of granite until we have our sculpture.

At this point, I think what Sock posted is a great template for us, so I'm going to try to help refine that as the direction to go with for Class synergy. Once we have fully figured out the cards we want designed for this, we can discuss whether we're ready to tie a bow in this one and move on to the next discussion (no hurries, though! Let's make sure to be thorough).

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Just some ideas:

Martian Manhunter II:

JUSTICE LEAGUE
At the start of the game, you may choose up to one Champion, one Vigilante, one Officer, one Scientist, one Warrior, one King, one Magician, and one Archer in your Army. For this game, each chosen Hero's Class is League Member instead of what is listed on that Hero's Army Card.

The one of each, diversity of classes, really does thematically underscore how each Hero is bringing something different to the table. I really like that aspect -- an army of specialists. I think King and Magician are worth including and don't bring in many trouble spots (none for Magician for sure).

The one thing missing from the above power is that you need to specify that you're only choosing Unique Heroes. That's not spelled out above, meaning Common Heroes and Event Heroes at the least would be applicable, and someone might be able to read squads into it as well.

I'd go with:

JUSTICE LEAGUE
At the start of the game, you may choose Unique Heroes, including up to one Champion, one Vigilante, one Officer, one Scientist, one Warrior, one King, one Magician, and one Archer in your Army. For this game, each chosen Hero's Class is League Member instead of what is listed on that Hero's Army Card.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter, or any League Member you control within 4 spaces of Martian Manhunter. Figures you control are always considered within clear sight of each other.

So we're OK with it being a general "figures you control" instead of League Members you control for the clear sight of each other? I ask, because I'm not sure if the theme of the power is a generic mind link or just one between Justice League members. It seems to be half of one and half of the other right now.

My proposal would be to go all in on the Justice League aspect of the Mind Link and to give it a less generic title, like "League Mind Link." After all, Mind Link is pretty generic, but the inclusion of "League Member" in the text already just about guarantees it's not a reusable power.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

PRECOGNITIVE SENSES
If a League Member figure you control rolls the 20-sided die for a special power, you may add 2 to the roll.

I don't think "figure" is needed there. But since you're actually the one doing the rolling, I think a quick overall tweak to the wording could help, like so:

PRECOGNITIVE SENSES
If you roll the 20-sided die for a special power on the Army Card of a League Member you control, you may add 2 to the roll.

The theme might be a little iffy on some powers this will boost, as a lot of the D20 rolls represent things that future knowledge wouldn't particularly help with, but I think it works on enough of them that it'll be OK.

I don't have time right now, but it's probably worth going through our list of 71 Heroes who synergize with this and seeing which ones benefit from D20 boosts and which ones don't. It should e very telling as to whether or not this power will help guide army building in a way that accomplishes our goals or not. I think it will, but it's worth being thorough and scientific.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

That'll work.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Cyborg II:

JUSTICE LEAGUE COORDINATED ATTACK
At the start of the game, you may choose one Champion or Warrior Unique Hero in your Army. For this game, the chosen Hero's Class is League Member instead of what is listed on that Hero's Army Card. After revealing an Order Marker on the card of and taking a turn with a League Member Hero you control within 5 clear sight spaces of Cyborg, you may immediately attack once with Cyborg, and you may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

I'm not sure if the first sentence is needed or not with Martian Manhunter how he is above, but preserving the ability to play Hawkman and Hawkgirl together is appealing. I'm hoping Wonder Woman 2.0 will be Justice League friendly, but there's no telling.

If we're going to include that first sentence, which I guess I'd lean towards all things considered (it was worth questioning, though), I'd probably throw in Officer, so you can bring two Green Lanterns if you want.

Same issue here of needing to spell out Unique Hero in the power text.

Should we specify the out of turn attack is with his normal attack? I know he doesn't have any special attacks, but you never know what oddness glyphs, etc., might bring down the road.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
After revealing an Order Marker on this card, you may place one Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyborg. Before moving Cyborg, you may roll the 20-sided die for each unengaged figure you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Cyborg. If you roll a 12 or higher, you may move that figure up to 4 spaces. After moving Cyborg, immediately remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC REPAIR X
At the end of the round, if you reveal an "X" Order Marker on this card, remove one Wound Marker from each Army Card you control with the Cybernetic Repair X special power.

SUPER STRENGTH

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Doctor Fate:

MAGICAL ELEMENTS
At the start of the game, you may place one water tile, one lava tile, one ice tile, and one shadow tile on this card. Instead of attacking, you may remove a tile from this card and place it on any empty land space within 4 clear sight spaces of Doctor Fate, if the tile fits normally onto that space.

I really do like the idea behind this power. I'd consider keeping it without the lava tile or with a lava terrain tile instead of molten lava. Molten lava's just too much of a game changer (and, as Yoda pointed out, not thematic).

That said, I also dig the power you replaced this with on your other version.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

HEROIC RESURRECTION
Before placing Order Markers for any round, if Doctor Fate is unengaged, you may choose any previously destroyed League Member you control and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 18 or higher, remove all Wound Markers from the chosen Hero’s Army Card and place the chosen Hero on any empty space adjacent to Doctor Fate. This special may only be used to place one League Member per game.

MAGICAL DEFENSE
When Doctor Fate is attacked by an opponent's figure that does not have the Magical Defense special power, the most wounds Doctor Fate can take for this attack is one.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING

The once per game aspect probably helps keep the resurrection power balanced, but it'll be something to look at. Another reason against giving him the ability to place molten lava, though. You don't want the guy to become a competitive nightmare!

One thing you might want to wait on for Doctor Fate is to see how the sanctum decides to handle some ideas they're working on regarding spells. It might really inform Doctor Fate's design.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

We could still create a JL communicator utility glyph for Batman that worked with all League Members instead of figures with JLA markers.

I like that a lot. It could also straight up change his own Class to League Member in the process. Then the rest of the power could deal with the Order Marker rearrangement, perhaps?

[Arkham]

Suggested changes were made Bats. I also made it so Cyborg could choose up to one of each of the 3 listed, rather than just 1 total. With the wide array of JL Champions, Officers, and Warriors, he could run his own army effectively with his 2 powers alone. So as the modern replacement for MM, I think it'd be fitting that he has a lesser pool to select from, but is still able to nab up 3 heroes of his own.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Some great design stuff here, Sock and Yoda! I think we've really got a clear direction here and should just chip away the remaining pieces of granite until we have our sculpture.

I'm quite happy with how this has turned out. I'd be 100% more satisfied if this is the direction ultimately chosen, now that it's fleshed out.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

That said, I also dig the power you replaced this with on your other version.

Yeah, I like them both too. Thought, the 2nd version I think shines best on the design, as it really gives him something to be excited about as well, and with an always useful 2nd power if successful, he'll be a solid addition to any Justice League army. I had thought about making the shield grant him and friendly figures within 4 spaces of him an additional defense die, so if we want more support tie in, that's something to consider. As for the spells, that was a thought that crossed my mind. I figure Fate will be my 3rd hopeful LD behind Martian Manhunter, so he'll have more time to see how that pans out, and make adjustments based on availability.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Once we have fully figured out the cards we want designed for this

I think that's the next step. We should probably make use of that poll, but eliminate MM, Cyborg, Wonder Woman, and Fate from the list. Then we can see who people would really like to be the final initial cornerstone to this. There's some good candidates there that are ripe for some cool synergy. I wouldn't mind eliminating the Flashs and Lanterns as well, as they all have pretty solid designs as is, and would be really hard to top IMO. I'm excited for who else would round this out, as that's 1-2 more synergy options on the table. Perhaps a lower point character would be best, in the 100-200 range?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I don't have time right now, but it's probably worth going through our list of 71 Heroes who synergize with this and seeing which ones benefit from D20 boosts and which ones don't. It should e very telling as to whether or not this power will help guide army building in a way that accomplishes our goals or not. I think it will, but it's worth being thorough and scientific.

Here's the list of those that have d20 rolls, with the ones thematically tied to the Justice League in bold:

Champion
Thor

Vigilante
Azrael, Batman (Bruce Wayne)(I), Batman (Bruce Wayne)(II), Batman (Jean-Paul Valley), Daredevil, Scarlet Spider (Kaine Parker)

Officer
Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

Scientist
Firestorm, Floronic Man, Giant-Man, Mister Fantastic, Mister Freeze

Warrior
Aquaman II, Frost Giant

King
Aquaman I, Laufey

Magician
Zatanna

Archer
Green Arrow (Connor Hawke), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)

So there's only 1 class where it doesn't really aid anyone Justice League related, which would be Champion. So Thor will be a sexy pick, but I think that'll come down to personal preference, and whether you really want the once per game chance for wounds. As for the rest, I think the Justice League heroes being positively effected by the d20 boost of +2, you're really getting some fantastic options that definitely gives them an edge, not that there isn't 2-3 decent options outside of them, such as Daredevil, Frost Giants, and Laufey.

[Yodaking]

I'd be okay with the utility glyph changing the owners class as well, maybe let him give one communicator out to one specific class too (Officer?). Then with Cyborg changing just 2 non-vigilantes to a League Member and Dr. Fate 2.0 being a League Member, you could feasibly run Batman, Green Lantern, Cyborg, WW, & Hawkgirl, & Dr. Fate line-up for a solid JL team without having to use MM 2.0 every time.

NAME = GLYPH OF UTILITY: JUSTICE LEAGUE COMMUNICATOR
SUBTITLE = TURN MANAGEMENT

EQUIPMENT GLYPH
At the start of the game choose one Officer Unique Hero you control, the chosen Officer and the controller of this glyph have the class of League Member instead of what is on it's card. At the beginning of your turn, you may move 1 unrevealed Order Marker from the card of a League Member you control onto any other League Member card you control.

*edit* or if Cyborg can change an Officer, then maybe Archer so the two non-powered human members of the team run together? Although you don't really need two Archers ever when Batman is working with MM so I don't know.

[Yodaking]

Daredevil with a +2 to his d20 would be a fun option when I didn't want to use Batman w/+2 to his d20 roll. I don't see that as a bad thing as Punisher overshadows Daredevil at the 180 vigilante level but with +2 to the D20 roll I would take him over an unboosted Punisher.

As for the communicator glyph idea, I think Scientist is the way to go for his recruited class. Flash is 250 points, Batman II is 250 points, a nice solid 500 point block and then if you go the MM 2.0 route you could have Atom & Flash in the same army. Flash runs across the board carrying Atom, drops him off and runs away.

I also am really starting to like this direction quite a bit. It locks in the core JL team while leaving it open for a little cross over fun.

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Some great design stuff here, Sock and Yoda! I think we've really got a clear direction here and should just chip away the remaining pieces of granite until we have our sculpture.

At this point, I think what Sock posted is a great template for us, so I'm going to try to help refine that as the direction to go with for Class synergy. Once we have fully figured out the cards we want designed for this, we can discuss whether we're ready to tie a bow in this one and move on to the next discussion (no hurries, though! Let's make sure to be thorough).

The one of each, diversity of classes, really does thematically underscore how each Hero is bringing something different to the table. I really like that aspect -- an army of specialists. I think King and Magician are worth including and don't bring in many trouble spots (none for Magician for sure).

The one thing missing from the above power is that you need to specify that you're only choosing Unique Heroes. That's not spelled out above, meaning Common Heroes and Event Heroes at the least would be applicable, and someone might be able to read squads into it as well.

I'd go with:

JUSTICE LEAGUE
At the start of the game, you may choose Unique Heroes, including up to one Champion, one Vigilante, one Officer, one Scientist, one Warrior, one King, one Magician, and one Archer in your Army. For this game, each chosen Hero's Class is League Member instead of what is listed on that Hero's Army Card.

So we're OK with it being a general "figures you control" instead of League Members you control for the clear sight of each other? I ask, because I'm not sure if the theme of the power is a generic mind link or just one between Justice League members. It seems to be half of one and half of the other right now.

My proposal would be to go all in on the Justice League aspect of the Mind Link and to give it a less generic title, like "League Mind Link." After all, Mind Link is pretty generic, but the inclusion of "League Member" in the text already just about guarantees it's not a reusable power.

I don't think "figure" is needed there. But since you're actually the one doing the rolling, I think a quick overall tweak to the wording could help, like so:

PRECOGNITIVE SENSES
If you roll the 20-sided die for a special power on the Army Card of a League Member you control, you may add 2 to the roll.

The theme might be a little iffy on some powers this will boost, as a lot of the D20 rolls represent things that future knowledge wouldn't particularly help with, but I think it works on enough of them that it'll be OK.

I don't have time right now, but it's probably worth going through our list of 71 Heroes who synergize with this and seeing which ones benefit from D20 boosts and which ones don't. It should e very telling as to whether or not this power will help guide army building in a way that accomplishes our goals or not. I think it will, but it's worth being thorough and scientific.

That'll work.

I'm not sure if the first sentence is needed or not with Martian Manhunter how he is above, but preserving the ability to play Hawkman and Hawkgirl together is appealing. I'm hoping Wonder Woman 2.0 will be Justice League friendly, but there's no telling.

If we're going to include that first sentence, which I guess I'd lean towards all things considered (it was worth questioning, though), I'd probably throw in Officer, so you can bring two Green Lanterns if you want.

Same issue here of needing to spell out Unique Hero in the power text.

Should we specify the out of turn attack is with his normal attack? I know he doesn't have any special attacks, but you never know what oddness glyphs, etc., might bring down the road.

I really do like the idea behind this power. I'd consider keeping it without the lava tile or with a lava terrain tile instead of molten lava. Molten lava's just too much of a game changer (and, as Yoda pointed out, not thematic).

That said, I also dig the power you replaced this with on your other version.

The once per game aspect probably helps keep the resurrection power balanced, but it'll be something to look at. Another reason against giving him the ability to place molten lava, though. You don't want the guy to become a competitive nightmare!

One thing you might want to wait on for Doctor Fate is to see how the sanctum decides to handle some ideas they're working on regarding spells. It might really inform Doctor Fate's design.

I like that a lot. It could also straight up change his own Class to League Member in the process. Then the rest of the power could deal with the Order Marker rearrangement, perhaps?

I think having a way to have the Superman & Wonder Woman in the same army is definitely needed but having Cyborg and MM2 to do it will be a tough sell. But if a Bat Glyph could bring in the other then MM and Batman II would be great. Cyborg is great and all but he's not part of "MY Justice League" if you know what I mean so if the only way to have Supes and Wonder Woman is to have Cyborg I'd be disappointed. If the Glyph could let me choose one of them then with Batman I'd be happy.

Supers II, Batman II, GL-Hal, Flash-Barry & WW fir 1600 with a MM2 coming in around 400 for and even 2000 - I'd call that a win!!!

[Yodaking]

I agree with you on the Cyborg & MM team up being odd. I think Batman should be the one that recruits a 2nd Champion since he is part of the Trinity. Then Cyborg can recruit a Scientist, which makes sense thematically as well with his background.