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  #49  
Old January 25th, 2013, 12:01 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
Unfortunately the "core" of any Gandalf army is so expensive that it becomes the whole army.
That's unfortunate?
If you had said that Ana Karithon + Raelin + Kaemon Awa + Gandalf makes a nice team, then I might agree.

But you said that they made a nice "core". A core of an army has some outer flesh around it as well. Therefore, it is "unfortunate" that there is not room to add flesh to the "core". So really, it's an army, not a core.

I personally enjoyed playing with Gandalf, even if he seems to lose most of the time. He makes playing a hero-only army more feasible--almost competitive even. More importantly, he makes it fun.
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  #50  
Old January 25th, 2013, 12:04 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

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Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
Unfortunately the "core" of any Gandalf army is so expensive that it becomes the whole army.
That's unfortunate?
If you had said that Ana Karithon + Raelin + Kaemon Awa + Gandalf makes a nice team, then I might agree.

But you said that they made a nice "core". A core of an army has some outer flesh around it as well. Therefore, it is "unfortunate" that there is not room to add flesh to the "core". So really, it's an army, not a core.
Bah, semantics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
I personally enjoyed playing with Gandalf, even if he seems to lose most of the time. He makes playing a hero-only army more feasible--almost competitive even. More importantly, he makes it fun.
That's the important part, so there you go.

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  #51  
Old January 26th, 2013, 03:24 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

HoME Playtest Form

NAME OF TEST UNIT:
Spoiler Alert!




THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects.
There's not really any way to perfectly represent Gandalf in a board game, but I think what we have is pretty good. His powers work well to get heroes into position so that they can fight, or getting them out of a scrape.

FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play?
Yes.

FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying?
The combos I tried seemed pretty reasonable. Siege is nearly impossible to kill when backed by Raelin, but Gandalf doesn't create that issue--he just makes it easier to pull off .

USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable?
Yes.

STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game?
Definitely.

BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately?
We'll have to look this over more closely in Editing, but I don't think so.

SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak?
This one I'm still not sure about. One of us should make a list of all the currently canonized Small/Medium Unique Heroes to see if there are any strong combos we might be missing.

POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including all finalized C3V, SoV, and HoME units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? Each power should define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what conditions (if any) apply.
Same answer here as with Synergies test, although it might be better to have Leadership work "at the end of your turn" and the bonus movement from Blazing Strike work "at the end of your turn,after using Blazing Strike."

DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting?
In heroes-only settings, definitely. Otherwise it would depend on the build, but yes.

MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game?
No weird loops.

ARMY TESTS
Game 1
Six Points by Dignan
No glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Tandros Kreel
500 Raelin

vs.

140 Nicholas Esenwein
260 4xDeathstrike Thrall
500 8xPreyblood Thrall

Winner: Gandalf and Co.

Left: Gandalf with no wounds, Raelin with no wounds, Siege with 1 wound, Tandros with 4 wounds

Notes: Tandros took a beating from the Thralls, but they couldn't do much to Siege and either didn't bother to or couldn't attack Gandalf (except once). The heroes rolled pretty good defense dice, altogether.

Game 2
Six Points by Dignan
No Glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Tandros Kreel
500 Raelin

vs.

140 Nicholas Esenwein
260 4xDeathstrike Thrall
500 8xPreyblood Thrall

Winner: Gandalf and Co.

Left: Siege with 1 wound, Raelin with 1 wound

Notes: Siege is a tough nut to crack. The thralls and Nichy were able to eventually take down Gandalf and Tandros, but couldn't get rid of Raelin and had a lot of trouble with Siege.


Game 3

Six Points by Dignan
No Glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Tandros Kreel
500 Raelin

vs.


280 4xHeavy Gruts
400 Grimnak
500 Tornak

Winner: Orcs

Left: Tornak with 1 wound and 4 Heavy Gruts

Notes: This would not have gone well for the heroes on a map with glyphs of much value (wannok, attack, defense, etc.). However, they were able to pod up on the edge of the map. If not for Grimnak chomping Tandros AND Raelin early in the conflict, this might have been a win for Gandalf and friends. As it is, Siege and Gandalf held out for a long time, wounding Tornak, killing Grimnak, and taking down 10 Heavy Gruts. Siege did most of the work, but Gandalf's Leadership was useful in getting Siege repositioned without any leaving engagement attacks, and his Blazing Strike took down a few orcs and put the wound on Tornak.

Game 4
Six Points by Dignan
No Glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Kaemon Awa
500 Raelin

vs.

280 4xHeavy Gruts
400 Grimnak
500 Tornak

Winner: Gandalf and friends

Left: Kaemon Awa w/3 wounds, Siege w/no wounds

Notes: This time, Grimnak rushed up with some Heavy Gruts. At first casualties were light for the orcs, and they put some wounds on Gandalf. But Gandalf's attacks killed Grimnak. Siege cleared some gruts away, and then Kaemon killed a grut and found himself unengaged with a shot at Tornak--he took Tornak out in one hit.

Kaemon Awa rained death this game. Most of the dead Gruts fell to his arrows, although he didn't use Counterstrike a single time, and took 3 hits when he whiffed a defense roll when the game was nearly over.


I have to confess, I'm not sure about this point value. I can see the arguments that he's not worth 180, but I'm reluctant to drop him too much because he's just so versatile. I'm looking forward to seeing more tests.

We should also consider the effectiveness of podding. I suspect that it might prove to be Gandalf's most effective strategy. Are we comfortable with that?

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  #52  
Old January 26th, 2013, 08:07 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
HoME Playtest Form

NAME OF TEST UNIT:
Spoiler Alert!




THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects.
There's not really any way to perfectly represent Gandalf in a board game, but I think what we have is pretty good. His powers work well to get heroes into position so that they can fight, or getting them out of a scrape.

FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play?
Yes.

FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying?
The combos I tried seemed pretty reasonable. Siege is nearly impossible to kill when backed by Raelin, but Gandalf doesn't create that issue--he just makes it easier to pull off .

USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable?
Yes.

STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game?
Definitely.

BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately?
We'll have to look this over more closely in Editing, but I don't think so.

SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak?
This one I'm still not sure about. One of us should make a list of all the currently canonized Small/Medium Unique Heroes to see if there are any strong combos we might be missing.

POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including all finalized C3V, SoV, and HoME units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? Each power should define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what conditions (if any) apply.
Same answer here as with Synergies test, although it might be better to have Leadership work "at the end of your turn" and the bonus movement from Blazing Strike work "at the end of your turn,after using Blazing Strike."

DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting?
In heroes-only settings, definitely. Otherwise it would depend on the build, but yes.

MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game?
No weird loops.

ARMY TESTS
Game 1
Six Points by Dignan
No glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Tandros Kreel
500 Raelin

vs.

140 Nicholas Esenwein
260 4xDeathstrike Thrall
500 8xPreyblood Thrall

Winner: Gandalf and Co.

Left: Gandalf with no wounds, Raelin with no wounds, Siege with 1 wound, Tandros with 4 wounds

Notes: Tandros took a beating from the Thralls, but they couldn't do much to Siege and either didn't bother to or couldn't attack Gandalf (except once). The heroes rolled pretty good defense dice, altogether.

Game 2
Six Points by Dignan
No Glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Tandros Kreel
500 Raelin

vs.

140 Nicholas Esenwein
260 4xDeathstrike Thrall
500 8xPreyblood Thrall

Winner: Gandalf and Co.

Left: Siege with 1 wound, Raelin with 1 wound

Notes: Siege is a tough nut to crack. The thralls and Nichy were able to eventually take down Gandalf and Tandros, but couldn't get rid of Raelin and had a lot of trouble with Siege.


Game 3

Six Points by Dignan
No Glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Tandros Kreel
500 Raelin

vs.


280 4xHeavy Gruts
400 Grimnak
500 Tornak

Winner: Orcs

Left: Tornak with 1 wound and 4 Heavy Gruts

Notes: This would not have gone well for the heroes on a map with glyphs of much value (wannok, attack, defense, etc.). However, they were able to pod up on the edge of the map. If not for Grimnak chomping Tandros AND Raelin early in the conflict, this might have been a win for Gandalf and friends. As it is, Siege and Gandalf held out for a long time, wounding Tornak, killing Grimnak, and taking down 10 Heavy Gruts. Siege did most of the work, but Gandalf's Leadership was useful in getting Siege repositioned without any leaving engagement attacks, and his Blazing Strike took down a few orcs and put the wound on Tornak.

Game 4
Six Points by Dignan
No Glyphs

180 Gandalf
300 Siege
420 Kaemon Awa
500 Raelin

vs.

280 4xHeavy Gruts
400 Grimnak
500 Tornak

Winner: Gandalf and friends

Left: Kaemon Awa w/3 wounds, Siege w/no wounds

Notes: This time, Grimnak rushed up with some Heavy Gruts. At first casualties were light for the orcs, and they put some wounds on Gandalf. But Gandalf's attacks killed Grimnak. Siege cleared some gruts away, and then Kaemon killed a grut and found himself unengaged with a shot at Tornak--he took Tornak out in one hit.

Kaemon Awa rained death this game. Most of the dead Gruts fell to his arrows, although he didn't use Counterstrike a single time, and took 3 hits when he whiffed a defense roll when the game was nearly over.
I have to confess, I'm not sure about this point value. I can see the arguments that he's not worth 180, but I'm reluctant to drop him too much because he's just so versatile. I'm looking forward to seeing more tests.

We should also consider the effectiveness of podding. I suspect that it might prove to be Gandalf's most effective strategy. Are we comfortable with that?
Excellent reports! He is very versatile, it's just that he really relies on good rolls. One bad SA roll from him means that his army could go down, that's my thought. What if he rolled each attack separately? That way he will get more kills.
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  #53  
Old January 26th, 2013, 08:45 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Classic Small and Medium Heroes A-L:
Acolarh
Agent Carr
Agent Skahen
Alastair Macdirk
Ana Karithon
Arkmer
Atlaga
Brandis
Brave Arrow
Chardris
Concan
Crixus
Cyprien
Darrak
Dead-Eye Dan
DW7K
Eldgrim
Eltahale
Emmiroon
Empress Kiova
Erevan Sunshadow
Estivara
Evar Scarcarver
Finn the Viking Warrior
Guilty McCreech
Hatamato Taro
Heirloom
Isamu
Iskra
James
Johnny
Jorhdawn
Kaemon
Kato
Kee-Mo-Shi
Kelda
Khosumet
Kumiko
Kurrok
Kyntella
Laglor

Last edited by OEAO; January 26th, 2013 at 08:53 AM.
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  #54  
Old January 26th, 2013, 08:53 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Classic Small and Medium Heroes M-Z:
Major X17
Marcu
Marcus Decimus
Master Win
Migol Ironwill
Mika
Mind Flayer
Mogrimm
Moriko
Morsbane
Ne-Gok-Sa
Ornak
Otonashi
Parmenio
Pelloth
Raelin v1 and v2
Retiarius
Rhogar
Runa
Samuel Brown
Saylind
Sgt. Drake v1 and v2
Sharwin
Shiori
Siege
Sir Denrick
Sir Gilbert
Sir Hawthorne
Sonlen
Sonya
Spartacus
Sudema
Syvarris
Taelord
Tandros
Thorgrim
Tul-Bak-Ra
Valguard
Venoc Warlord
Warden 816
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  #55  
Old January 26th, 2013, 10:14 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Of all the listed small and medium heroes, some will naturally weed out due to better usefulness/synergy with other figures (e.g. Pelloth) or are figures you don't want adjacent (e.g. Ke-Mo-shi).

Awhile back I ran a number of hero-based games through the Shadow Caverns scenarios, which can be very hard on groups without much synergy.
One group I found that worked well was: Sonlen, Moriko, Ana, Heirloom, and Rhogar (throwing in Kira Jax to reach 600 points, though she generally died quick). Substituting Gandalf for Sonlen, you might get a rather tough pod with multiple melee attacks, two figures who can heal, and three figures who can hit with varied special attacks with some range.
Want some more range instead then replace Rhogar with Skahen. Or want more melee attack, replace Rhogar with Evar Scarcarver.
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  #56  
Old January 26th, 2013, 10:25 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Can someone else do the C3V/SOV list of Small/Medium Heroes?
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  #57  
Old January 26th, 2013, 11:11 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

C3V/SoV Small-Medium Heroes
Kira Jax
Elaria the Pale
Martial La Hire
Capt. John Varan
Myrddin
Haduc
Priscus
Ulfrid Hornwrangler
Van Nessing
Tyrian the Kyrie Warrior
Zogross Hardscale
Zaeus
Cxurg'gyath
Nicholas Esenwein
Arashara Goshiri

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  #58  
Old January 26th, 2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

I thought of another army idea for a heroes-only game involving Gandalf:

200 Spartacus
380 Gandalf
480 Priscus
570 Crixus
+ filler?

Gandalf could keep them all together to benefit from Priscus' Aura. Those would be some beefy Gladiator heroes. Probably not an efficient army, but it could be fun to be rolling that many dice (Spartacus would be 7-5 and Crixus would be the same, if they were both close enough to Priscus).

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  #59  
Old January 26th, 2013, 02:18 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
We should also consider the effectiveness of podding. I suspect that it might prove to be Gandalf's most effective strategy. Are we comfortable with that?
Good playtests. Those Gandalf armies did really well against melee armies.

What is podding?

How did Gandalf affect the battles? Did you put all of your order markers on him in the beginning to get everyone to height?

How did you protect Raelin from attacks?
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Old January 26th, 2013, 03:55 PM
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Re: HoME Playtesting Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
What is podding?
Setting up a "pod" on a strategic location and not moving--forcing the enemy to come to you, basically. Its much harder to pull off against armies with decent ranged components unless you can outrange them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
How did Gandalf affect the battles? Did you put all of your order markers on him in the beginning to get everyone to height?
In the first round I put all my Order Markers on Gandalf to position the other heroes. After that, in the first two games, I often put my 2 and 3 on him* since he was the only figure with effective range and I wasn't sure which of my melee heroes would be more effective. In those games, I moved Siege and Tandros around quite a bit, either to screen for Gandalf's attacks or to deny certain positions to the enemy.
*leaving the 1 and X for Siege almost every round in all 4 games, except for the times when I put the 2 or 3 on him instead of the 1, or in the third game after Gandalf and Tandros died, when he carried all my OMs

In the third game, once they were in position Gandalf typically sat in one place. I used Siege and Tandros more often. Since the enemies were much more numerous and swarming all around I found them more effective for dishing out the hurt. Once the game resolved to Siege and Gandalf, most of my order Markers went to Siege, but I put a few on Gandalf now and then to pull Siege back to tighter chokepoints without leaving engagement.

In the fourth game, Gandalf was used very little once I had everyone in position because Kaemon Awa was way more efficient and had more range on his normal attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
How did you protect Raelin from attacks?
I couldn't avoid it entirely, but I put up a physical wall with the other heroes, and positioned them against the edge of the board to minimize contact. In the games where my other heroes died early they had a much easier time getting at her. The Thralls, lacking disengage, pretty much never touched her.

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