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  #37  
Old May 6th, 2014, 02:33 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Deadpool!!!

A Note on Updates to Cards

I'm going to place a small version number under the
point cost of a card every time I update it. That should make it
easy to know if you have the most up-to-date version.

You'll note for example that Nick Fury just had a slight update,
thus the number 2.0 visible in the preview.
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  #38  
Old May 6th, 2014, 08:53 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Deadpool!!!

Great idea! I wish others would do this as well.
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  #39  
Old May 6th, 2014, 09:09 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Deadpool!!!

Agreed. Very smart and sensible.

A cloud can change its semblance, yet retain its will
With the intimacy of destruction, One knows what it is to be alive
The empty sky holds no reflection, for sorrow
- Eslo Rudkey
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  #40  
Old May 7th, 2014, 08:32 AM
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Re: Joker's (not Grizelnakhs) Custom Figures - Harley Quinn!

Joker here kiddies!

I threw that Griszelnakhel guy outta here!
Now I'm taken over dis joint!

How DO you spell his name anyway???!!!!


:



(To see the complete entry visit the first page of this thread.)


Harley Quinn posted.

Last edited by Grishnakh; May 14th, 2014 at 09:51 AM.
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  #41  
Old May 7th, 2014, 09:16 AM
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Re: Joker's (not Grizelnakhs) Custom Figures - Harley Quinn!

"I just knocked out the Joker so I could regain
control of my thread here for a few minutes.
Hopefully he won't wake up too soon……"



When my son and I started these cards one of our main goals was playability. The way we saw to achieve this was to attempt to simplify the wording of the special abilities.

Now I'll assume that everyone here knows how to play Heroscape (or at least the two or three of you that mighty actually attempt to use these cards do!). So we set out to make the special abilities more playable by writing them in more of a gamers short hand.

This has already been done to a small extent. The original flying special ability takes up half of a card. Someone (giving due credit to whomever came up with the idea) realized early on that that power could be condensed down into a "flying symbol", freeing up the card for additional special abilities. What I'm going to try to do is just take that a step further.

Harley Quinn is a good example of this. Here's two versions of her with the same special abilities. The first one is my condensed version of the text, the second is what it would read if I followed the more traditional Heroscape "legal" text.

Hopefully you can see what I mean. The first is much easier to grasp and understand, making it, at least in my opinion, more playable.




And in all honestly, my eyes cross when I read that second card. Give me 5 or 6 cards like that in a game and I already have a headache before I even start playing. And let's just forget about trying to explain how special abilities of multiple cards work to three other players! At that point I'd rather just stop and play a video game.

However, there's a possible problem with shorting these special abilities. Our cards somewhat assume you understand what's implied. Leaving things out of the official wording could create problems with interpretations of the rules. But in all honesty I think people on this site already have things like "each figure rolls defense dice separately" committed to memory. To add that to a card just takes up another line of text and prohibits us from adding in another cool special ability.

Now, as Sherman Davies did yesterday, if any of you see a serious problem when we shorten a cards text please point it out to us. I've tried to anticipate problems but I'm sure I haven't caught them all. We're really going to start bending some traditional Heroscape rules in the weeks to come so using several fresh pairs of eyes on these will just help improve them.

One last update, I'm in the process of revising my Interactive Terrain Feature rules to make them even easier to use. These cards, plus playing a lot of games smashing and throwing stuff, have given me new insights in how to implement them. Now this won't be a drastic change, but the rules as they currently exist will probably be replaced in the next few months, so if you want to keep a copy of the older version download it fairly soon.
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  #42  
Old May 7th, 2014, 03:28 PM
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Re: Joker's (not Grizelnakhs) Custom Figures - Harley Quinn!

Now that my son and I are a few days into posting our Super Hero Cards I thought I'd quickly show you how we go about putting them together.

We use 5" x 5" CD sleeves that we purchased from Sleeve Town. I made a matt board square that is just slightly smaller than that and use it to carefully trim out my printouts with an xacto knife. Slip them into the sleeve back to back and your done. Protects the cards and keeps everything together in one neat package.

Plus, if you're playing with someone that doesn't know the characters that well they can always read about them while they wait for their turn! Personally I think it helps to better understand how to play them and what their special abilities represent.







Last edited by Grishnakh; May 7th, 2014 at 03:36 PM.
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  #43  
Old May 7th, 2014, 03:47 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Harley Quinn!!!

Grishnakh, I think this is a great thread. I love the way you've opted to go with multiple simple powers to represent the theme of these characters. I do have a few thoughts and suggestions.

1) When you reuse a power, it might be better to use the same name. I noticed that Catwoman and Batman both have PHANTOM WALK, but on Batman's card it is called I AM THE NIGHT. Using the same name for powers that have the same text is a way for players familiar with the power to save time when reading the card (example: I skipped over reading Nick Fury's Counterstrike and Tactician powers because I was already familiar with them from the Hasbro Captain America). In Batman's case, while I AM THE NIGHT is a little more thematic, PHANTOM WALK is still appropriately thematic IMO.

2) This may not be an issue for your cards, but the Official cards use the words "target" and "choose" because those words are defined stages that can trigger other powers. Consider the Nakita Agents SMOKE POWDER: "When any Nakita Agent you control... is targeted..." The use of the word "target" in that power gives it a trigger-point to hang onto, so that other powers, say "When XYX targets a figure..." can interact with SMOKE POWDER in a straightforward way. The same goes for the use of "choose." For instance, C3G has taken advantage of the common use of the word "choose" to implement powers that say things like "This figure cannot be chosen for powers that meet such-and-such conditions" or "When this figure is chosen for a power, do ABC." So, that would be my case for that particular use of Heroscape legalese.

3) I agree that Heroscape powers are often worded oddly and could probably be condensed. What you might do for things like Explosion Attacks is include some general clarificiations in a separate rulebook, like "When multiple figures are affected by the same Special Attack, each figure rolls defense dice separately" and "For a power that affects "all adjacent figures," unless the power states otherwise, the attacking figure only needs clear sight at the initially chosen figure and not the other adjacent figures" etc.

4) I'm not sure I understand your intentions with Batman's GLIDE power. You already stated in his GRAPPLE GUN power that he never takes falling damage, so what purpose does GLIDE serve? Is it supposed to be a power that works "Instead of moving normally?" It seems to imply that if Batman starts on a tile that's, for instance, at level 25, if he uses GLIDE he can move onto an adjacent tile that's level 20, but then he can't move onto a tile that's level 21 from there, even if the next (and, to keep things simple, we'll say last) tile he were to move to after that would be at level 15, because that would not be a "constant downward motion to the next, lower level." The reason that seems odd to me is because it seems like Batman could glide over the level 21 tile just as well as he could over the level 20 tile. Here's my idea, although I don't think it covers quite everything, but I think it would fly with the powertext-style you're shooting for:
"While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations, as long as each space he moves onto with Glide is lower than the space where he began his Glide move."

Anyway, I love the cards and I look forward to seeing more!

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Last edited by caps; May 7th, 2014 at 03:59 PM.
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  #44  
Old May 7th, 2014, 04:51 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Harley Quinn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Grishnakh, I think this is a great thread. I love the way you've opted to go with multiple simple powers to represent the theme of these characters. I do have a few thoughts and suggestions.
Thanks for taking the time to compose and write out your thoughts. As many card designers before me know these things are not easy to pin down!

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
1) When you reuse a power, it might be better to use the same name. I noticed that Catwoman and Batman both have PHANTOM WALK, but on Batman's card it is called I AM THE NIGHT. Using the same name for powers that have the same text is a way for players familiar with the power to save time when reading the card (example: I skipped over reading Nick Fury's Counterstrike and Tactician powers because I was already familiar with them from the Hasbro Captain America). In Batman's case, while I AM THE NIGHT is a little more thematic, PHANTOM WALK is still appropriately thematic IMO.
1) You pretty much got it. We were definitely trying to capture the feel of the character more in the name of the power. Maybe our names have a more RPG flair than Board Game here. However. it is a very good point about keeping the name consistent though, one that I'll try to implement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
2) This may not be an issue for your cards, but the Official cards use the words "target" and "choose" because those words are defined stages that can trigger other powers. Consider the Nakita Agents SMOKE POWDER: "When any Nakita Agent you control... is targeted..." The use of the word "target" in that power gives it a trigger-point to hang onto, so that other powers, say "When XYX targets a figure..." can interact with SMOKE POWDER in a straightforward way. The same goes for the use of "choose." For instance, C3G has taken advantage of the common use of the word "choose" to implement powers that say things like "This figure cannot be chosen for powers that meet such-and-such conditions" or "When this figure is chosen for a power, do ABC." So, that would be my case for that particular use of Heroscape legalese.
2) Another example would be on Rhino's card where I say "own" rather than "control". I realize I've been a bit sloppy with the terminology. My use of "target" and "choose" are definitely off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
3) I agree that Heroscape powers are often worded oddly and could probably be condensed. What you might do for things like Explosion Attacks is include some general clarificiations in a separate rulebook, like "When multiple figures are affected by the same Special Attack, each figure rolls defense dice separately" and "For a power that affects "all adjacent figures," unless the power states otherwise, the attacking figure only needs clear sight at the initially chosen figure and not the other adjacent figures" etc.
3) While it can be argued that it's better to have a rule on a card some of these rules seem to take up a lot of unnecessary room, especially for experienced players. But moving things to a rule book conjures up images of playing D&D, where you constantly have to look up a rule in a book! No easy solution here. Keeping the powers lengthy means less room for more powers. And some of these supers definitely have a lot of powers. Still, I like the idea of a gamers shorthand here. Regardless I'm sure I'll continue to battle this problem in future as well as revised cards.

Quote:
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4) I'm not sure I understand your intentions with Batman's GLIDE power. You already stated in his GRAPPLE GUN power that he never takes falling damage, so what purpose does GLIDE serve? Is it supposed to be a power that works "Instead of moving normally?" It seems to imply that if Batman starts on a tile that's, for instance, at level 25, if he uses GLIDE he can move onto an adjacent tile that's level 20, but then he can't move onto a tile that's level 21 from there, even if the next (and, to keep things simple, we'll say last) tile he were to move to after that would be at level 15, because that would not be a "constant downward motion to the next, lower level." The reason that seems odd to me is because it seems like Batman could glide over the level 21 tile just as well as he could over the level 20 tile. Here's my idea, although I don't think it covers quite everything, but I think it would fly with the powertext-style you're shooting for:
"While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations, as long as each space he moves onto with Glide is lower than the space where he began his Glide move."
4) Here's what we were trying to capture: We saw Glide as limited flying. Once Batman starts gliding (flying) down he cannot move up. It was our intent that he compares where he is in his glide to the next level, and the one below that, and so on. Not the actual height of the tile beneath him. Does that make sense?

So in your example he would start on a hex tile at level 25, glide off to level 24 vertical but one space horizontal, then glide off to level 23 vertical but again one space horizontal, then glide off to level 22 vertical but one space horizontal (completely passing over the tile that is 21 levels high) and then drop down to end his move on a hex that's 15 levels high.

His "never takes falling damage" however is a function of his grapple gun. It saves him if he gets thrown off a building for example. We see it totally as a vertical, one hex move. Up or down.

Quote:
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Anyway, I love the cards and I look forward to seeing more!
As I've said we think these are definitely going in a different direction than what others have attempted to do, so there's bound to be some issues with them. Regardless I'm going to continue to post these as the weeks go by, in all their twisted, creative glory. Perhaps members of this site will look at them more as a 1st, or maybe 2nd draft, rather than finished cards.

And I do hope that members continue to offer suggestions. I'll definitely listen. It's posts like yours that definitely will help my son and I make these cards better.
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  #45  
Old May 7th, 2014, 05:41 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Harley Quinn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grishnakh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
2) This may not be an issue for your cards, but the Official cards use the words "target" and "choose" because those words are defined stages that can trigger other powers. Consider the Nakita Agents SMOKE POWDER: "When any Nakita Agent you control... is targeted..." The use of the word "target" in that power gives it a trigger-point to hang onto, so that other powers, say "When XYX targets a figure..." can interact with SMOKE POWDER in a straightforward way. The same goes for the use of "choose." For instance, C3G has taken advantage of the common use of the word "choose" to implement powers that say things like "This figure cannot be chosen for powers that meet such-and-such conditions" or "When this figure is chosen for a power, do ABC." So, that would be my case for that particular use of Heroscape legalese.
2) Another example would be on Rhino's card where I say "own" rather than "control". I realize I've been a bit sloppy with the terminology. My use of "target" and "choose" are definitely off.
They may not necessarily be off. In fact, the card that made me think about this (Harley Quinn) uses the correct terminology. I haven't looked at the others with this particular issue in mind. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
3) I agree that Heroscape powers are often worded oddly and could probably be condensed. What you might do for things like Explosion Attacks is include some general clarificiations in a separate rulebook, like "When multiple figures are affected by the same Special Attack, each figure rolls defense dice separately" and "For a power that affects "all adjacent figures," unless the power states otherwise, the attacking figure only needs clear sight at the initially chosen figure and not the other adjacent figures" etc.
3) While it can be argued that it's better to have a rule on a card some of these rules seem to take up a lot of unnecessary room, especially for experienced players. But moving things to a rule book conjures up images of playing D&D, where you constantly have to look up a rule in a book! No easy solution here. Keeping the powers lengthy means less room for more powers. And some of these supers definitely have a lot of powers. Still, I like the idea of a gamers shorthand here. Regardless I'm sure I'll continue to battle this problem in future as well as revised cards.
Hmm, I don't think it would be like D&D. Most of your clarifications would fit on a single page--although it could be more if you started using shortcut phrases to express new mechanical concepts. Traditional Heroscape "erred" on the side of putting more information on the card, but they had to put some of the information in a rulebook. There's no reason you can't slide the scale over a little--your explosion power already does it, in fact. I'm just proposing you make it explicit, so that when a player who maybe hasn't played traditional Heroscape plays with your cards they have a reference to understand what they're expected to know when they read the card.

Quote:
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Quote:
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4) I'm not sure I understand your intentions with Batman's GLIDE power. You already stated in his GRAPPLE GUN power that he never takes falling damage, so what purpose does GLIDE serve? Is it supposed to be a power that works "Instead of moving normally?" It seems to imply that if Batman starts on a tile that's, for instance, at level 25, if he uses GLIDE he can move onto an adjacent tile that's level 20, but then he can't move onto a tile that's level 21 from there, even if the next (and, to keep things simple, we'll say last) tile he were to move to after that would be at level 15, because that would not be a "constant downward motion to the next, lower level." The reason that seems odd to me is because it seems like Batman could glide over the level 21 tile just as well as he could over the level 20 tile. Here's my idea, although I don't think it covers quite everything, but I think it would fly with the powertext-style you're shooting for:
"While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations, as long as each space he moves onto with Glide is lower than the space where he began his Glide move."
4) Here's what we were trying to capture: We saw Glide as limited flying. Once Batman starts gliding (flying) down he cannot move up. It was our intent that he compares where he is in his glide to the next level, and the one below that, and so on. Not the actual height of the tile beneath him. Does that make sense?

So in your example he would start on a hex tile at level 25, glide off to level 24 vertical but one space horizontal, then glide off to level 23 vertical but again one space horizontal, then glide off to level 22 vertical but one space horizontal (completely passing over the tile that is 21 levels high) and then drop down to end his move on a hex that's 15 levels high.
Ah, interesting. That is very nonintuitive for me, although I can't speak for others. The text of the Flying power actually isn't that great at spelling out what's happening mechanically--it just states some rules the flyer is allowed to break and relies on an intuitive reading past that point. However, my understanding of the nitty gritty is that a flying figure is not on any particular level while they are flying. They are just somewhere in the air above the spaces they are passing over. Mechanically they almost move into some kind of phantom zone overlay of the board, because they don't become engaged with any figure.

Allow me a ridiculous scenario: imagine a Heroscape ladder that stretched up infinitely high. Imagine a figure on every open rung of the ladder. A figure that used Flying to move adjacent to that ladder would not become engaged with any figure anywhere on the ladder, because a Flying figure in Heroscape is not at any particular level of the battlefield while they are flying. Am I making any sense?

Here's my second shot at GLIDE:
"While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations, as long as each space he moves onto with Glide is lower than the space where he began his Glide move. Batman may glide over water without stopping and pass over figures without becoming engaged."

That adds in a couple of clauses from FLYING, but not the part about "obstacles such as ruins." You could add that part in. Leaving it out or including it makes for weird situations either way ("How can he fly over that wall! It's taller than the space he started!"), but as the old saying goes "It's a game, not a simulation."

Maybe you could say "Batman may also glide over obstacles such as ruins as long as the height of the obstacles is lower than the space where he began his Glide move." But that's really getting wordy.

I suspect this sort of thing is why C3G went with a single bat-grapple power for moving up AND down.

Thanks for letting me harangue you so much about this in particular! I hope it is a help and not an annoyance.

Formerly known as capsocrates
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Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations!
--
Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness
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caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate

--
Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV

Last edited by caps; May 7th, 2014 at 05:46 PM.
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  #46  
Old May 7th, 2014, 05:54 PM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Harley Quinn!!!

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Thanks for letting me harangue you so much about this in particular! I hope it is a help and not an annoyance.
Oh goodness no! It is a big help, and one that I asked the community at large to provide. I'm glad you stepped to the plate.

Love your ladder example. Very funny but useful.

Downward flying. Yep, trying to break new ground here. And explain it in 6 words or less. Boy did I set myself up for a challenge! Wish me luck…..

Let me think about what you wrote. Gotta take the kids out to dinner first though.
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Old May 8th, 2014, 12:47 AM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Harley Quinn!!!

Capsocrates: After thinking abut this (probably more than I should) I'll most likely go with a simple page of rule clarifications after all. In fact I already have a post on the first page of this thread for just that reason. For example I've been tweaking how Mind Control works. That will be a good place to put the expanded explanation rather than clutter up the card. Plus I'm currently updating my one page sheet for my Interactive Terrain Features so I already have a precedence here.

Anyway I really like the way you structured the Glide rule. Let me see if I can put it all together:

GLIDE
While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations, as long as each space he moves onto with Glide is lower than the space where he began his Glide move. Batman must end his Glide movement in a space lower than where he started. Batman may also glide over obstacles such as ruins as long as the height of the obstacle is lower than the space where he began his Glide move.

This seems to work and is pretty clear to me. Plus all but the last sentence will fit on the card. Or perhaps I'm too close to it and am not seeing any problems associated with it. Anyone else have an idea?
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Old May 8th, 2014, 12:58 AM
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Re: Grishnakh's Custom Super Hero Figures - Harley Quinn!!!

Hmm, I think you need this part, whereas you could get by with him not being able to Glide over obstacles:
"Batman may glide over water without stopping and pass over figures without becoming engaged."

But let me try to shorten it some:
Quote:
While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations, as long as if each space he moves onto with Glide is lower than the space where he began his Glide move. Batman must end his Glide movement in a space lower than where he started. While gliding Batman may glide pass over water and figures without stopping and [s]pass over figures without becoming engaged[s] does not become engaged. Batman may also glide over obstacles such as ruins as long as if the height of the obstacle is lower than the space where he began his Glide move.
which is:
Quote:
While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations if each space he moves onto is lower than the space where he began his Glide move. Batman must end his Glide movement in a space lower than where he started. While gliding, Batman may pass over water and figures without stopping and does not become engaged. Batman may also glide over obstacles if the height of the obstacle is lower than the space where he began his Glide move.
If you want the obstacle part in, you could probably do:
Quote:
While moving, Batman may use Glide to ignore elevations and obstacles if each space he moves onto and the height of each obstacle he passes over is lower than the space where he began his Glide move. Batman must end his Glide movement in a space lower than where he started. While gliding, Batman may pass over water and figures without stopping and does not become engaged.

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Last edited by caps; May 8th, 2014 at 01:00 AM. Reason: added quote blocks for readability
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